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HADD training plan
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Just read the link that BN74's has posted a couple of times http://can.milesplit.com/discussion/topics/90162/ and BN74's post on 28/2 @ 10:16 is a good summary of the thread.
I think I can see where the confusion arises as some of the info in the link is a bit contradictory and the question that seems to have been posted a couple of time is when to introduce the 80-83% work sessions.
"Start running at 70-75% of HRmax, or less, every day until you work up to being comfortable running 50 miles per week of easy mileage. At this point, you will begin to add in stronger aerobic work sessions."
My thoughts on the above "comfortable running 50 miles per week of easy mileage" I think the key word here is "comfortable"- don't think right I hit 50 mpw this week I'm ready to introduce the work sessions.
"But don't move up until you've mastered the level you're already working at, which means being able to run more than 60 minutes at that HR without slowing down to keep HR below the target"
So I am "comfortable running 50 miles per week of easy mileage" but cant "run more than 60 minutes at HR < 70-75% without slowing down" - I think this is down to the individual but I would keep running > 50 mpw @ < 70=75% HR until I had this level "locked-in" as I want to squeeze as much toothpaste as I can out of the tube.
Although from Brian's experience of HADD'ing he suggests that "I would say if the last 3 runs were at a pace that was reasonably static for the same HR, then I would also suggest moving up."
I really think it is down to personal choice when to introduce the work sessions - to early and you increase the risk of injury to quote Dr.Dan "Yes, it certainly is tough jumping into two weekly 10M runs at 83% maxHR ... well it was for me anyway."
If I felt that I was comfortable running > 50mpw but wasn't really seeing any further improvement in terms of pace for a given HR then I would introduce the work sessions to try and break the plateau.
Thanks for that Simon. That is how I look at it. Myself personally am in not rush to "move up". Patience is the key here and if it takes a year then so be it. I am going to do a couple of more weeks of easy running then going to add a work session. Maybe only 30 mins for now and see how I get on.
spen71 I am lol as when I was writing the post you were the person I was thinking of in terms of confusion around when to introduce the work sessions
.
Just to add for clarity "two weekly 10M runs at 83%" a'la Dr.Dan isn't the recommended way of introducing the work sessions. As BN74 posted from http://can.milesplit.com/discussion/topics/90162/1 "maybe you do 2 x 20 min @ 80-83% Tuesday and then 30 or 40 min @ 80-83% Friday"
One last quote from the thread
"Phase I might take 2-3 months, for a younger or less experienced runner, maybe 3-5 months, maybe more. To do this properly, you have to start it without a preconceived notion about when you'll be ready for more advanced training."
Looks like your taking the right approach spen
Thanks for the link SimonA - I've always used the original Hadd posts from letsrun, so have never some across these "easing in" approaches. I'm not sure what Hadd recommended ... but clearly the chap you wrote the thread in your link is suggesting a more gradual approach. Makes sense as I did find the "two weekly 10M runs at 83%" pretty tough (although the improvement in my fitness was remarkable).
Yep, I took another look at the Hadd document ... he does indeed recommend building up. No wonder I was knackered!
"Initial LTHR (initial lactate threshold heart rate): As with Joe in the example, begin at 155-160 and do not let the HR rise on the run. Build up the distance you can run for, over time, to 10 miles. At first, you may have to slow down within the run to maintain HR, but over the weeks and months, you should note that the running speed begins to remain more stable and you do not have to slow down (so much) to stop your HR rising. In time, the running pace at this HR (and all other HR’s above it) will also improve. Only move this HR up when your running pace vs HR is rock steady and you (easily) are able to run 10 miles at this HR without loss of pace or rise in HR. At that point, only move the HR up by 5bpm and begin again."
Regular sports massage, foam roller at home on the calfs, work the area with your thumbs,
Calf raises for strengthening, check shoes for high heel cups or change to lower.
I got probs with saucony and changed to mizuno. Still get the odd niggle but with above approach keep them at bay.
Bottom line is keep the calves as loose as possible.
Keep the feet flexible by kneeling on toes outstretched and toe crunches.
Rotate the ankles regularly too. Golf ball rolling for the feet too. Sorry about the randomness of the posting, I'm in transit!
What ho, Hadders!
Lamb Chop, you have my sympathies as my Achilles tendons have been sore since about 2003
I doubt I'll ever get it to go away but I manage it with the techniques Brian has mentioned.
I also recently came across a link to this site which I think explains things very well.
Blimey,
I've been away on business for less than a week... and what a week it's been: bust-ups; make-ups; hellos; good-byes; welcome-backs; arguments, agreements; stand-offs; but, above all else, the usual nuggets of good advice and shared wisdom! That's why I am not currently bothering to read any other thread on the RW website. Folks, we may not be perfect - as in any relationship, we have our ups and downs - but the good news is we're still together and I personally feel much stronger for it (in running terms, at least
- I don't want any of you getting ideas!).
Some prelims, before I give you all a short synopsis of my week... Welcome back Dr Dan, wondered where you'd gone, really sorry to hear of your woes (the dangers of overtraining: a real warning to us all - get well soon); Welcome Mace - if you've read the entire thread, you'll see that I popped up in your place last November and I find the help and motivation this site gives me to be invaluable; and finally; good for you Gus, stick with it, it is a fairly slow process, but it does not take long for the balance to shift in the HR/Pace equation (for me, 11:36 m/m at 70% at the end of November, 10:15ish m/m now).
So, to my news. I am delighted to report a sub-2 hour Rome-Ostia HM at the weekend!
(First HM therefore a PB...)
Ok, so it was 1:59.19, but my target was not to race, but to run at a pace I thought was sustainable for my FM on 18 Mar. I therefore maintained a steady 9:30m/m pace (at 80-83%) until the 11 mile point when I felt fresh enough to go for it (in under 2 hours...). Perhaps even more importantly, when I went out for my Tuesday 80% run (on a cold and drizzly Munich evening) and after 70 mins, my Nike+/iPod setup ran out of battery (grrrrrr), I had averaged 9:05m/m including a slow 10 minute warmup. So, bottom line, it is all starting to pay off. One final long run tomorrow - 18 miles at 70% or less as me and the missus (who did 2:07!) help a friend who is also running Rome in two weeks and has struggled to get the distance in. Then it’s two weeks of taper before finding out for real whether 13 weeks of HADD (and less 80% runs than I would have liked...) has taken me from a 40 minute jogger, to being a respectable Marathon Runner.
Watch this space!
L33, Congrats on the HM pb
. Good discipline shown sticking to your plan. Really looking forward to your Rome outing, you deserve it to be an enjoyable experience!
Have a good weekend everybody. Good luck to anyone racing. Hope the long runs go to plan.
Personally, having had a dodgy week following hitting a 10M race hard last Sunday, today my legs felt like my own again. 80% run planned for tomorrow, and a 20M+ very easy run Sunday.
Have you never been tempted to try and shake off the achilles niggles CH? I suppose I'm happy to manage it as long as I know I'm not storing up a long term big problem.
It's very matey in here today (in a good way). The esprit de corps in the Hadd thread is palpable. Keep up the good work team!
Brian - I've had a bit of a dodgy week as well
Went for a run on Monday which is normally a day off and it started off well but after about 3 miles it felt like I was running in treacle. Stuck with it and managed to complete 10.5 miles at about 10:46 pace. Decided to have Tuesday off as I am currently only running 6 days and decided that maybe my body was telling me I needed a day off.
Went out on Weds for an 8 miler and my pace had dropped to 10:51 (bearing in mind I had a stunning week last week and went from 11:32 to suddenly pulling a 10:14 over 10 miles out of the hat last Saturday and hit a 10:02 over 6 on the Sunday). Woke up Thursday with a sore hip
x2 and wasn't going to run and thought it may have been the start off an enforced layoff - even more 
. Anyway bit of a row with one of my sons so decided to go for a run to clear my head - 6 miles 10:37 so got a bit of pace back.
Had a great run today 8.5 miles most of it off-road a new route that I think I can extended to about 11 miles - most of it around a nature reserve, a lake and across farm land. Was expecting to lose some pace as off-road so was well pleased when I got home and it was 10:32. Fresh as a daisy and really consistent HR & pace
again.
Simon, it's sounding like it coming together and good news that the hip wasn't serious!
LambChop, I had them massaged weekly for a bout a year; never got any better or any worse; if I stretch my calves as soon as I come in from a run, it keeps it at bay; it's the perils of having upped my mileage!
L33, nice PB! 41 sec under 2 hours is quite well-paced
I've got a HM that I intend to race tomorrow, so I expect that Brian will be passing the sore legs on to me for next week; it's not an 'A' race, though I intend to run hard, just to see what I'm now capable of. I shan't test myself again until Stratford marathon, honest. As I'm training through the race, I did 7 miles tonight; 8:56s at 69% MHR! On the 10th November, same loop in 9:16s for 74% MHR...so an improvement of 20 sec a mile for 10bpm lower. It's set me up nicely for the race!
It was really interesting to read, but forgive me for my stupidity, i just didn't understand it all. I understand all the technical stuff i.e why we need to run slow and build up, the clever part shall we call it! But i didn't understand his training fully. I understand bits of it... but i'm not confident on it enough to start training! Can someone put the training into Layman's terms please?
Zane.
Zane, If you've read the Hadd document, it may now be worthwhile reading the document posted by BN, which explains the training in a different way. Also read back on this thread.
Very simplistically, the initial phase involves building your mileage, with 70% running, till you get to 6-7hours per week.
Crash, Hope the HM goes well.
SimonA, Great that you persevered. I suppose that when we are running most days, it is inevitable there will be off days. After Fridays lovely easy run, I ran down the canal yesterday and despite the muddy, slippy conditions, had a relatively comfortable 80% run. As I was cooling down, running back up out of the valley, the 80% section completed, I glanced at the garmin and went thru HM in 1:35:45!!!! Which is faster than my first 2 or 3 HM races!!!
13.75 miles @ 7:25 pace incl 10M@6:55 for HRav 150 (80%)
Thats briiliant Brian. That is a very good pace.
I am going to do one more week of easy running then start to bring in the 80% runs.
Have people found that this is the most effective marathon training, most time consuming? Just after some clarity on the whole thing, I know a lot of people love it, but there must be some haters?
Again, sorry for my naivety.. new to the whole 'forum' thing.
Zane
Thanks Crash.
Brian, great stats - very impressed (and not a ittle jealous).
Zane, I came at this in late November last year, specifically as a marathon training programme (my target is Rome on 18 Mar - so if you wait two weeks I can even tell you how effective it has been...). Though HADD didn't design this process for marathons, per say, it is absolutely aimed at upping your ability to sustain pace over distance. The bottom line is that by running slow you train those muscles that get completely bypassed when you flog yourself hard thinking it's the only way to get fit (and as a fellow soldier, I can tell you that we are some of the worst culprits in that respect!). It's all about making your muscles more efficient at using glycogen and pushing the inevitable lactate threshold as far out to the right as possible for a given pace and distance.
I suspect the ideal is to do a full 12-16 weeks of Hadd as base training and then kick into a recognised marathon training programme over the same sort of period (take a look at 'Higdon' - I reckon he talks a lot of sense). My problem was that I did not have the luxury of time and so I have been forced to improvise by sticking as true to Hadd as I could, whilst incorporating some of Higdon's regime in the last few weeks.
So, the short answer to your question is 'Yes, absolutely'! What you need to do now is decide how long you are prepared (or can afford) to give the 'programme'. My advice is as long as possible... it really pays dividends. (In fact, I am going back to it, big style, once I have done my FM)
Take care in your final few weeks in theatre - remember, it ain't over 'til its over...
Zane, there's no doubt it works, but it's not a quick fix; I suppose that this is the problem, you don't get results for months, but when you get them they're terrific...yes there's gradual improvement along the way, but it's like the 'lose 1lb a week' method of dieting, it's just not 'spectacular'.
HM for me on Saturday; 1:43:58 watch time in the wind for an average HR of 169 (84.5% max) which was below my lactate threshold. I slowed in the last 1/4, but that was more a biomechanical thing (it was on concrete and oddly my Achilles was sore! I need some new shoes with a bit more stability built in, methinks)
Very pleased with the process, was hoping to have been faster, but sometimes it's not to be.
Nice HM L33.
11+ miles for me yesterday at sub 70% maxHR. Turned out at 10 m/m ... I was at 8:45/m a few months ago, so definitely some work to do. Nevertheless, happy with the run - longest since the distasterous run October that started my woes.
Crash, Good HM result. Should give you confidence to kick on now.
DrDan, Always good to get that first one under your belt, and to know where you stand. What L33 said.
L33 - cheers for the welcome .... your improvement makes for good reading and motivation .
Quick update from me - i received my Garmin 305 in the post on Saturday and quickly set about pressing all the buttons , like a kid with a new toy.
Saturday evening i decided to do a max HR test so i drove to a quiet spot with HR monitor strapped on and Garmin raring to go. To be honest i wasn't totally confident how exactly i should be going about this or how hard i should be running but 2 minutes into my warm up the Garmin popped a message on the screen to say, in effect, i'd been a complete numpty and my battery was low ... i'd forgotten to charge it in my excitement, so off home i trundled, tail between my legs.
Bottom line is, i haven't had a chance since to do a max test, but would like to know how some of you would go about this. I've read about a bit and been offered advice elsewhere that suggests :
15 min warm up / gentle jog
800 min hard run
90 seconds rest
800 min hard run , last 400m flat out
How does this sound ?
And how 'hard' should the bits be run before the 400m flat out ... is it a gradual build up of pace so that in theory the max is achieved in the final 400m ? I may be over-thinking this ( hence my earlier comment about not being totally confident ) , but i don't want to run too hard to start and then not be able to finish the test as i've collapsed on the road, but then i need to run hard enough to hit my max ....
Hi Mace.... Hope you mean mtrs & not minutes, otherwise they'll be no HR to take.... There's no steadfast format for doing a HR test, but I would recommend doubling your warm-up and having a couple of 30sec pace increase's near the end, to ensure the leg's are fully warmed up..... Also if your anywhere near a hill of about 200mtrs in lenght, then half a dozen efforts up that, would be ideal...... Using the first four efforts as a gradule increase in pace, with the last two balls out......
Good Luck...