Wheel upgrade

2

Comments

  • D0MD0M ✭✭✭

    Thought I could get a new cassette, use existing tyres and get a turbo tyre for the old wheels for winter.

     

  • On most £1500 carbon framed, 105 specced bikes you would get some very heavy, lower end wheels....EG a £2099 Pinarello comes with Shimano 501s, you can get these for under a £100 a pair.

  • Dustboy wrote (see)

    Can I bang on about ceramic wheel bearings again? £60 upgrade, lovely. Personally, I think they have ransformed the ride and rolling resistance of my C24 DA wheels. Any comment engineer? You must know about this stuff. I've doen loads of unscientific "roll-ons" and they really do pick up quicker.

    W = krMs + kaAs3 + giMs (assuming a still day, else W = krMs + kaAsv2 + giMs )

    As velocity increases, energy required to overcome rolling resistance increases. It's a linear relationship. Double one, the other doubles.

    But as you double velocity, energy required to overcome air resistance multiplies by EIGHT. At anything other than very slow speeds, aero is FAR more important than rolling resistance. 

    That said, the two usually go hand in hand because if you're dropping £2k on a set of Zipps, they'll likely come with a 'better' bearing than a £300 wheelset built up with cheap hubs. 

    Interestingly, aero is actually as important as (and usually more important than) weight for most rides featuring significant elevation change, the exception being pure hill climbs. This is because being aero coming down recovers more time than you save by pinching a few grams uphill. 

     

    Back on topic, my recommendation would be a set of Fat 45s from Planet X, or look at Flo wheels, though these are currently shipping on a pre-order basis out of Canada.

    Crucially, they both have a carbon aero fairing on an alloy rim. This means that you'll be able to train and race on them without worrying about the perils of braking on carbon. And the more you can train on them and enjoy them - the better your results will be.

  • D0MD0M ✭✭✭

    I quite like the Ribble thing, where you build the bike to your own spec. But they only seem to go to a 56cm frame and I have a 61cm. 59-60cm would be ok, but 56cm is way too small, or have I got this wrong.  A club mate got a Ribble bike (£1700 with quality wheels) and he says it makes quite a difference.

     

  • Flat Foo..ted wrote (see)

    On most £1500 carbon framed, 105 specced bikes you would get some very heavy, lower end wheels....EG a £2099 Pinarello comes with Shimano 501s, you can get these for under a £100 a pair.

    And sensibly so. Built down to a price to be competitive, and as this thread has shown wheel choice is both a first port of call for upgrades AND something that can be a personal choice. Easier to upgrade a wheelset than a groupset - and having a better specified groupset means you're in the upgradeable end of the market. Build the bike to the same price with Mavic Cosmic Carbone or something similar and you're left using a 2300/Sora group - better to get 105 so you're 10 speed compatible. 

    As an aside, really liking the look of a new bike with Ultegra 6800 (11 speed), but means I'll have to upgrade the TT if I want to swap kit between bikes without faff. First world problems.

  • This is a lot too process on a Friday evening engineer, but it makes for interesting especially the argument of weight vs aero, the main factor I would bring into that theory though is the riders ability, unless its a pure straight decline, but that is me being very nerdy image

  • And who said the youth of today know nothing?image

  • WhizKid wrote (see)

    This is a lot too process on a Friday evening engineer, but it makes for interesting especially the argument of weight vs aero, the main factor I would bring into that theory though is the riders ability, unless its a pure straight decline, but that is me being very nerdy image

    I tend to see things in a very black and white world!image On a descent speeds are generally higher (or you're going through brakes like inner tubes), so acceleration will be faster as a result of improved aerodynamics. Even if you're a nervous descender, you're still getting something out of it. Compare this with the difference of 200-300g in a bike + rider combination of 70kg+ going uphill, and you're onto a winner.

  • IronCat5 in the Hat wrote (see)

    And who said the youth of today know nothing?image

    The more I see, the more I know;
    The more I know, the less I understand.

  • I'm a changing man........

  • Cheers FF,  was just trying to place that tune image

  • Well, all I can say is WOW! Moved from the basic Rodi clinchers on my Ribble TT bike to using some Planet X 60mm carbon clinchers. I finished my typical 4hr / 125km and I am a little shocked.

    Previous best = 4h 9min with average speed of 29.5kmph, done on a day with little wind

    Today = 3h 49min with an average speed of 32.7kmph in windy conditions

    By my basic maths, that is an increase of over 10% in speed! Hardly a controlled test (as I changed tyres too) but can't be a coincidence.

  • I wonder how much is the bearing, and how much the aerodynamics?
    However, the basics and the weight of evidence seem to stack up.

    Question: Do these Planet x 60 clinchers have alloy brake rims? Answer = yes.
    Bearings seem to be shit hot too.
    Spokes seem to be cleverly engineered.

    FFS at sub £500, I'm going to start saving up!

  • buy the best wheels you can afford - re weight, rotational mass etc

    however, legs come first......  i used to overtake lots of peple with flash kit and no bike legs.....  but if you have the money......

    the ones that come with bikes are generally rubbish...... replace hen they wear out or get a nice pair and use the crap ons in winter.

    i bought a set of second hand ali / carbon hed 60/80s and they are lovely - a whole 1mph faster than the 30 cm depth vision tri max pros i have.  the visions cost £250 down from £500 from planet x, and the heds £500 from ebay.    

    i would love zipps but i cannot justify £1000 for a set of wheels.....

    loved the reynolds ds pros on my boardman - 3 years of abuse without a wimper.  the replacement hope/mavic open pros are built lkr a brick shit house.....

    no idea if any of that helps 

  • OK, no longer lurking!!  
    Engineer, do you rate the FLO wheels?  Although on an 'advanced order' system, they seem very reasonably priced!  I've heard Dusty banging on about ceramic bearings.  Would they sustain the weight of the err.. larger framed 'athlete'?  I have started a diet of some sorts!!  image

  • I always wanted to upgrade my Mavic Aksiums (which are bomb proof) ever since I can remember with Zipps. So saved up and bought a set of Zipps 404 front and 808 back last year and love them to pieces.

    I am sure that if I ate one less sandwich at lunchtime I would be able to ride faster than spending the money but hey-ho you only live once - and the Zipps are brilliant.

     

     

     

  • Prince Siegfried wrote (see)

    OK, no longer lurking!!  
    Engineer, do you rate the FLO wheels?  Although on an 'advanced order' system, they seem very reasonably priced!  I've heard Dusty banging on about ceramic bearings.  Would they sustain the weight of the err.. larger framed 'athlete'?  I have started a diet of some sorts!!  image

    IIRC Flo have a 'clydesdale' front wheel. The rear is good for all shapes and sizes. Or it might be the other way round. image

  • Cheers Cat!  I had to google 'Clydesdale wheel' to find out what you were on about!!  imageimage

  • D0MD0M ✭✭✭

    IC5,

    Looked on Planet X.  They have AL30`s at 150 (out of stock), AL30 C`s at 150, Model B V2.0 at 150 (down from 200). And then there`s the Fulcrum 5`s at 161.  What do you think?

     

  • I think the model B and AL30 are pretty much the same thing, give or take. The AL30C are 32 spoke front and rear, so bombproof and a tad heavier.

    To be honest, they're all much of a muchness, and all will be an improvement on what you have.

  • I have for too many years ignored the potential gain from deep section / deeper than 'standard' wheels.  Partly because I didn't feel right investing in new wheels when it was my spare tyre than needed to be addressed first but primarily because I hadn't appreciated the impact / improvement they could make to speed / efficiency.

    As part of a new bike I am about to commit to building, I plan to invest in Mavic Cosmic SLs and I wondered whether anyone had experience / feedback (positive, negative or otherwise) to offer on these badboys?  Most importantly whether another £50-£100 invested on top of what I've already mentally committed to spend, would make that much more of an improvement.

  • I have Cosmic SL's on my TT bike...

    Never had any issues with them, Bala in 2011 in the high winds was a little scary, But other than that great.

    NB, They are the only wheels I have for my TT bike, and they don't fit my road bike so it's not a very scientific study !

  • They were my second choice and recommended by my LBS.

    They were just that bit out my league at the time pricewise.

  • They've received praise from bike and tri review sites but it's nice to have some personal feedback.  Cheers guys.

  • Oh and the mechanic who built my TT bike uses them on his TT bike

  •  
    TheEngineer wrote (see)
    WhizKid wrote (see)

    This is a lot too process on a Friday evening engineer, but it makes for interesting especially the argument of weight vs aero, the main factor I would bring into that theory though is the riders ability, unless its a pure straight decline, but that is me being very nerdy image

    I tend to see things in a very black and white world!image On a descent speeds are generally higher (or you're going through brakes like inner tubes), so acceleration will be faster as a result of improved aerodynamics. Even if you're a nervous descender, you're still getting something out of it. Compare this with the difference of 200-300g in a bike + rider combination of 70kg+ going uphill, and you're onto a winner.

    But using that same argument, the difference in drag between expensive and cheap wheels is small compared with the drag from a rider sitting up on a descent because he's a nervous nerys.

  • Cheerful Dave wrote (see)
     
    TheEngineer wrote (see)
    WhizKid wrote (see)

    This is a lot too process on a Friday evening engineer, but it makes for interesting especially the argument of weight vs aero, the main factor I would bring into that theory though is the riders ability, unless its a pure straight decline, but that is me being very nerdy image

    I tend to see things in a very black and white world!image On a descent speeds are generally higher (or you're going through brakes like inner tubes), so acceleration will be faster as a result of improved aerodynamics. Even if you're a nervous descender, you're still getting something out of it. Compare this with the difference of 200-300g in a bike + rider combination of 70kg+ going uphill, and you're onto a winner.

    But using that same argument, the difference in drag between expensive and cheap wheels is small compared with the drag from a rider sitting up on a descent because he's a nervous nerys.

    Yeah but you can change the wheels.image

  • TheEngineer wrote (see)
    Cheerful Dave wrote (see)
     
    TheEngineer wrote (see)
    WhizKid wrote (see)

    This is a lot too process on a Friday evening engineer, but it makes for interesting especially the argument of weight vs aero, the main factor I would bring into that theory though is the riders ability, unless its a pure straight decline, but that is me being very nerdy image

    I tend to see things in a very black and white world!image On a descent speeds are generally higher (or you're going through brakes like inner tubes), so acceleration will be faster as a result of improved aerodynamics. Even if you're a nervous descender, you're still getting something out of it. Compare this with the difference of 200-300g in a bike + rider combination of 70kg+ going uphill, and you're onto a winner.

    But using that same argument, the difference in drag between expensive and cheap wheels is small compared with the drag from a rider sitting up on a descent because he's a nervous nerys.

    Yeah but you can change the wheels.image

    You can also zip up the man-suit and learn to descend. Cheaper* than new wheels.

    *probably

  • IronCat5 in the Hat wrote (see)
    TheEngineer wrote (see)
    Cheerful Dave wrote (see)
     
    TheEngineer wrote (see)
    WhizKid wrote (see)

    This is a lot too process on a Friday evening engineer, but it makes for interesting especially the argument of weight vs aero, the main factor I would bring into that theory though is the riders ability, unless its a pure straight decline, but that is me being very nerdy image

    I tend to see things in a very black and white world!image On a descent speeds are generally higher (or you're going through brakes like inner tubes), so acceleration will be faster as a result of improved aerodynamics. Even if you're a nervous descender, you're still getting something out of it. Compare this with the difference of 200-300g in a bike + rider combination of 70kg+ going uphill, and you're onto a winner.

    But using that same argument, the difference in drag between expensive and cheap wheels is small compared with the drag from a rider sitting up on a descent because he's a nervous nerys.

    Yeah but you can change the wheels.image

    You can also zip up the man-suit and learn to descend. Cheaper* than new wheels.

    *probably

    Until it costs you a bike! Nearly binned the TT on Sa Calobra last month, it is so long you build confidence at a steady rate until you have a moment! As much as I love both, the TT is not the ideal bike for that road!!

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