Hard Marathon Training with Mike Gratton

[Deleted User] · January 2005

Hi Mike,
Thanks for all your advice last week. I did 21 miles on saturday (the first of my 20+ milers) and felt great - 3 laps of Richmond Park so not flat! A friend (who is an age group triathlon medallist) ran with me for my second lap and watched me finish the run and thought I was running very strongly. I felt like I could have run a couple more miles. I averaged 8 min mile pace finishing in 2 hrs 48, but was 2 mins faster on the last lap which was encouraging (probably chatting too much on the second lap!). I didnt manage a recovery run yesterday (but still managed 54.5 miles this week) - trying to balance the home life/training/work ratio is not proving easy and my other half is suffering neglect. However I feel like I'm bouncing out of my skin this morning, so will do your tempo session tonight. I do have a feeling that if I were to run another marathon after this I could well end up single!

Mike Gratton 2 · January 2005

Hi URR, The principle of gradually building up the length of the Long run has come about by the need to do that for beginners. Most experieinced runners will infact do the longest and slowest runs at the beginning of the conditioning phase. I know that Rob d'Castella used to go out for 4 hr runs around the hills of Canberra at a very slow pace, I ran 20 miles with him one March in Portugal before he won Boston in 2.07 and, after a slow first 30 mins it got faster and faster - his progression was not the distance but the speed of the long run.

On the fat burning issue, you will be into that zone after an hr or so, but it is not as simple as that as your ability to use fat is pace related as well - the faster you go the more your body must use glycogen, so to get your body to become more efficient in using fat it is necessary for you to run steady on the long run - if you go too fast you will just depleat glycogen and then struggle but not necessarily be forcing the body to use fat. In terms of running quality this is probably not the best situation. If you want to deplete glycogen quickly then about 20 mins of flat out interval training will get you there.

It is pretty certain that because of the weekly quantity of training you will be in the fat burning zone much of the time, so it is not just the long runs that are making you more efficient but the sum total of all your weekly training.

It's a tricky area which I'm not really qualified to tackle.

Mike Gratton 2 · January 2005

Get the other half running Tricks - it's the only answer.

[Deleted User] · January 2005

He does run - just not as much as me! He's not competitive nor does he think much of it if he misses a week through other commitments whereas if I miss more than a day I'm climbing the wall. The problem is that all weekends up until the marathon at the moment revolve around me getting a 2.5 hour run in somewhere on one day and another run on the other day. The skiing trip will come at a good time! Runner's partners must be some of the most understanding people in the world.

Tigger's mate Roo · January 2005

re pace of long runs. Isn't the idea of 20-22 miles being ideal distance is that at c 1 min/ml slower than marathon pace the time equates to marathon time ?

[Deleted User] · January 2005

Going back to the question of time rather than distance of runs. At the moment my mid-week long run is taking me around 2 hours and the weekend 20 miles over 3 hours at a pace which is currently about 90 seconds per mile slower than my goal marathon pace. Does that mean that I am out too long? And should I be worried about my pace? If I'm going to need to adjust my time target I'd like to know sooner rather than later although I guess that will have to wait until I run a half in March.

Mike Gratton 2 · January 2005

Hi Tiggers Mate, That is probably so, but it only realy works for quicker runners, it doesn't really stack up for a 3 1/2 hr + marathon runner as the duration of the session is getting too long. The pace of the run should develop over time as well, so you may be running about 30 sec per mile slower on the 20 mile runs in the last 4 to 6 weeks as a) you should be fitter, and b) they will bring you to a peak. We did some pretty hairy long runs at Invicta towards the end of the training for a marathon - no waiting for anyone, just eyeballs out for the last 30 mins, but at this time of year we spent more time getting bogged down in woods, crawling through undergrowth and climbing over fences in Canterburys Blean Woods - the pace being very variable and sometimes at walking pace if it got too muddy.

Hi Becky, You're just on the edge, but you're coping very well with it so I wouldn't change it at this stage, come March I think you'll probably be running a bit quicker and may want to shorten the runs a little bit to maintain a good pace.

Mike Gratton 2 · January 2005

I mean 30 sec slower than marathon pace in the last 4 to 6 weeks.

[Deleted User] · January 2005

So for a slower runner who is aiming for a sub 5 hour marathon at 11 min miling pace it maybe better for me to do LSR at around this pace to get more miles within 3hrs 30min if I can cope with it than to run at a slower than MP. My longest run done a week past Saturday of 15 miles was done at 11.03 average pace and felt comfortable, apart from last mile into a strong wind, course was fairly flat. Have had a virus so have been resting this weekend. Planning 3 hour run this weekend if recovered.

Mike Gratton 2 · January 2005

That sounds OK Jane, it is likely that you are capable of running much quicker than 11 min/miles if you are comfortable at this speed in training - it's something you can reassess after you have done a few races - the important thing is that you are running comfortably and not straining to go faster on the LSD run.

[Deleted User] · January 2005

A message to all of you from the physio's waiting room. got the intrasound as you suggested Hilly and it may have found the real problem area as it has been hard to pinpoint. It hurt on a bony part at the side of my knee when using it in the area that I felt was injured (it didn't do the same when I tried the other leg) So now off to the physio in Barnsley who I've been informed is a runner herself, so hopefully I will soon know what the problem is and if london is still on. Over the last few days I have been feeling quite negative (sorry!!!!???) about my prospects until I read that Brian hasn't run for even longer than me and he is still hoping to run. Mike a question for you when do you think I should decide whether to run or not without starting any proper training? Got to go now, off to the gym for another hour or so of really crap music.

Mike Gratton 2 · January 2005

Hi Trouty, depends on what you want out of FLM - just get around and have a fun day, fine do it on minimum training as long as you are not injured. If you would be suicidal if you didn't do a good time, then maybe don't do it if you are not properly on the road in the next couple of weeks.

Hilly · January 2005

Hope she finds the problem and it's easily treated trouty!

I made a mistake with this evenings run. I did tempo, but I thought tempo was half marathon having not read the marathon pace in brackets, so I think I did it too fast. Does it matter Mike?

On the long run subject, I feel stronger on the long runs than I did for Cardiff training even though I'm out running for 2:30-3+ hrs. Is it a good idea to use energy gels to prevent depletion on these runs? I've sort of tried not to with the belief that burning fat will help me run better in the marathon, which doesn't seem to be the case reading the last posts.

Tigger's mate Roo · January 2005

BeckyS and I have run our last 2 long runs together. We both were tired about half way through, not just, or even particularly in the last few miles, and we kept to a fairly even pace, so unless its a psychological thing* we really would have found it hard to go much faster at any stage; nor would it have been much easier if we had say being doing 16 ml rather than 20. Though I suppose it would have effected the amount of tiredness afterwards.

*maybe trying to pick the pace up when tired might have got us going better (what do you think, Becky? )

Hilly · January 2005

TmR-my friend I had did just that on Sunday (picked the pace up for the final few miles)without setting out to do it. We had a low period about 17-18 miles and I got a stitch, then once through that we seemed to raise the pace and finished feeling strong.

[Deleted User] · January 2005

Hiya

Hilly, I've never taken much energy on board during my long runs although at the moment I am using one gel (or part of a gel per run) to find out what suits me for London as otherwise I won't take anything on then either.

TmR, I think we probably should try and pick up the pace a bit towards the end of our runs. There is a temptation when the going gets tough to ease back and sometimes actually picking up the pace is what you need to make things feel better. My legs feel much better for a hard run last night than they did after my steady on Sunday.

Mike Gratton 2 · January 2005

Hi Hilly, Don't worry about individual sessions not being as prescribed, as long as the overall pattern of training is OK the odd slower or faster than expect run is not going to make any difference. I used to be like you and try to force glycogen depletion so that fat burning would be forced. It clearly worked in that I had success in my races, however, I have now been convinced by physiologists that it is not necessary as at the correct pace fat buring in encouraged anyway, so better to keep the quality of the run and quicker recovery by taking gels or other carbos during the run.

TmR & Becky, I agree, sometimes when you run at a slower than normal pace you don't get a natural rythmn going and some times feel worse.

[Deleted User] · January 2005

TmR & Becky,

I find that the easy type of recovery run is the most tiring of the lot. Running at a slower than normal pace makes me feel very tired and my lower legs ache. Maybe its all in my head?

Twin Dad Twice · January 2005

I'm with you on that one, Brian. Running slowly - ie around 60% WHR or below - seems to really compromise my running economy and I have to work really hard to try and keep something approaching ok form. That said, the day after my recovery runs, I'm ready for a quality run again. I guess everyone has a pace at which, running seems natural and easy. For me, it's around about 8-8:30 miling. But if tried to run that pace every day, I'd soon be injured!

[Deleted User] · January 2005

Hilly - I tend to take on 1-2 gels and a banana on my long runs which probably doesnt amount to much more than 200-300 calories. I think we burn more than this in the first hour, and definitely more across the whole run, so (and I'm not an expert) I would guess that fat burning will kick in regardless of whether we take them or not. I think taking 2 or 3 will give you a boost just when you need it. I think also that my recovery is quicker becasue I have taken on something during the run.
I did a tempo run last night -15 mins warm up at 8 min mile pace and then ran about 6.30/6.45 for half an hour with 15 mins warm down. I felt like I was absolutely flying which was really encouraging. My enforced rest day on sunday after my 21 miler might have helped. Doing about 12 miles tonight instead of tomorrow becasue of work so it will be intersting to see how my legs feel.

[Deleted User] · January 2005

mike
been thinking and this can be dangerous
hill work what would you recommend me opting out of to do if at all
sat long run, sun recovery 6m am 4m pm
monday speed session tuesday 10m
wed tempo run thursday 5m easy friday R/Day
I do not seem able to find a day to fit any in although my 10m has some hills in I donot run them to quick

[Deleted User] · January 2005

Depending on the weight you burn about 100 kcal per mile. So for a long run it's 2000 kcal. What a normal person needs a day to survive (who is a little bit active 30-60mins moderate exercise like walking or bike trip).

Twin Dad Twice · January 2005

World Champ - not sure if Mike G would approve, but I generally run speed and hill sessions on alternate weeks and it seems to work ok for me. Just a thought!

Hilly · January 2005

I always make sure I've eaten and drank well before my long run including porridge and energy drink before I go, so maybe that's why I rarely feel the need to have a gel on the run. Although I do take lucozade sport drink (500ml) and drink it all. I've got some Go Gels, which I've used a couple of times so know they agree with me. I'll take them with me like I did before and use them if I feel I need to.

Running is feeling so good and effortless at the moment, could I be peaking?
I've done 27 miles on Sunday, 7 miles with 4 tempo yesterday and 15 miles with 15 *1 min efforts today and I have to say my legs feel good. I'm sure it won't last, so I guess enjoy while it does!:o)

[Deleted User] · January 2005

Hilly, that's 3 hard runs in 3 days!!

Don't peak at the end of January please:). One year I left my best work on the Norton 9 in early March:(

Blisters · January 2005

Lurk

Hilly · January 2005

Hi BR, I'm following Mike's schedules for which session to do the only thing I'm doing different is my own mileage. I hope I don't peak at the end of Jan as I'm still building miles and have 11 weeks to go yet!

Surely in an 18 week schedule you can peak more than once?

Mike Gratton 2 · January 2005

Hi World Champ, you can elect not to do the hills and stick with traditional tempo and interval training, or take a two week rotation as Tea & Toast suggests. You'll notice from my own schedule that I didn't do much in the way of hill sessions, this was mostly because Canterbury is surrounded by hills and every tempo run had 6 or 8 climbs on it so hill work was achieved that way.

I don't think you'll peak too early Hilly, you'll have peaks and troughs of feeling good and feeling tired, I think the good feeling at the moment is mostly because you are adapting to the current training load. Next stage is some fairly heavy interval sessions which will probably make you tired again.

[Deleted User] · January 2005

I worried about peaking as well, but you've answered that Mike!

Did 12 miles last night at a steady pace, and then a slow stiff 6 miles this morning (can't run tonight as I get home too late). The run this morning felt very uncomfortable, but then I did only leave 11 hours between the two runs.

Mike, I'm currently running about 55 miles per week, I cant imagine that I'm going to get much beyond 60 miles with work and home commitments. Is it going to matter too much if I plateau at about 55 miles per week with the occasional 60 mile week between now and the marathon? The only other way of increasing my mileage is to run more than once a day which will be very difficult. At the moment, I do intensity once or twice a week. For instance this week, I've done a tempo for half and hour and I'm doing a speed session tomorrow on the track. Next week I wont do any as I have a half marathon on the sunday, and your 'easing back' advice worked wonders so will apply that then rather than tapering.

Mike Gratton 2 · January 2005

Hi Tricks, You have to balance your running with the rest of your life and if you only have time for 55 or 60 miles a week - which is still a lot - then as long as you are getting the key sessions - long run, tempo run and interval session in you'll be as fit as you can be come the marathon. If you try to cram more running in to your life something has to go, and usually it is your health - so continue to take a balanced approach and you'll be fine.

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