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Moraghan Training - Stevie G
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Yes Bus, doing ok on the bike front. I feel fitter than ever in fact. Just need to up the running a little.
I reckon that heat was adding 10 beats minimum to my HR today.
Dean, maybe just a case of needing a few more quick races in the legs. Hopefully you'll blast the BMC at Oxford, particularly if that announcer gives you any more motivational quotes on the last lap.
Great reps once more Simon. Tidy 400s CC82.
Down to Basingstoke last night for the Hampshire Grand Prix. Yet another attempt at a sub 9. Slightly perturbed when the race started lining up 15 minutes before I had expected - I've got used to doing the A race last like at Watford, and had simply assumed it would be that way round.
Planned to stick with 72s as Simon suggested and see how far I could get. Not far enough was the answer. I got four and a half laps in on exactly that pace, but the pace then started to fall off, although I was still making places up. Tried to rally for the last lap, but it was well gone by then. I at least managed to make up a place in the last 100m, a very unusual event for me (results show it was at the expense of a near-legendary serial race winner), and finished in 9:08:40.
It's at least a big improvement from the 9:20 and 9:21 I've run so far this year, but is still well behind my slowest 3000 from last year. Just don't seem to have my legs for this distance at the moment. Oh well, it'll have to be an attempt at Watford in August. More speedwork needed I suspect.
Still a great time Dachs.
Just a thought from a less experienced runner... A fade in the latter stages of a 1500m (like Dean) and a fade in a 3000m (Dachs) and you say more speedwork needed. Is that the answer? You've obviously got the speed as you ran that speed for 4.5 laps. Is it speed endurance rather that is required?
Genuine question.
I'm just curious - for my own training as much as anything else. I was starting to build my training with a speed focus (+ hills for strength/speed) but wanted to maintain an element of endurance (through quality threshold work) as well. That threshold stuff is the staple of 10k / HM training that I've been doing over the past couple of years but in my mind at least I would think the speed endurance is as important as the raw speed. I.e. it's no use me being able to bang out, I don't know a 68s 400m lap if I can't hold the required slightly slower pace for a full mile at sub 5 pace.
Managed another slow 3.8 miles last night and even slower 3.75 this morning (almost 9/mile pace!). Trying to get the legs nice and recovered for (hopefully) a track session tomorrow morning.
Notice the resting HR has crept up a few beats. It was sitting nicely at 48 for a while but in the last few days has gone up to 54! Hopefully whatever is lingering f***s off before it materialises...
CC, I think the problem is that 72s is far too close to my current 1500 pace to be able to sustain for a full 3K. My 1500 PB is 4:21 and my 3000 PB is 2 x 4:30, so there's no slack there, and if I'm not in top 1500 form, which I'm not, that makes it even harder.
I suspect I need both speed and speed endurance though!
At the risk of looking like I'm talking to myself like the bearded weirdo in the wee-stained trousers at the bus stop, I was thinking more about what difference raw speed would have made. Last night, I overtook a young bloke at 400m to go who seemed to be struggling. He came past again at 250m to go and finished with enough aplomb that he ran 9:02 to my 9:08. 6 seconds in 250m! And I finished OK by my own poor standards, even managing the rare feat of taking a place in the home straight. If I had the kind of raw speed he has, I'd have easily broken 9 at least twice last year purely from the finish alone.
There are those of course who say that the finishing speed isn't about raw speed at all, it's mainly down to whoever has the best aerobic endurance so they've got something left from the race. These people are largely wrong. I've been easily beaten in a fast finish in cross country races by enough youthful middle-distance specialists who theoretically have far worse aerobic endurance than I do to know that's the case. I could have jogged 6 and a half laps at 8mm pace last night and I still wouldn't have finished like that.
In an even stranger addendum, I just went out and did some reps in the park. Not ideal doing them the morning after a race, but I have no other chance this week. Track wasn't available so I was working off the 100m markers set into the path. Aimed for 6 x 1200, and my legs managed to muster 5 x 1200 in 3:36, 3:37, 3:38, 3:37, 3:36, and then did 4 x 200 in 33s as I couldn't face a final 1200. Don't ask me to square running a 9:08 3000 one evening, and then doing 5 x 1200 at a faster pace the very next morning, as I can't work it out either. I'm willing to accept that the 100m markers in the park might not be 100% spot on, but I can still compare it to plenty of previous rep sessions using the same markers, and it compares very favourably. Mysterious.
Still a good effort Dachs - I'm glad I didn't do Eltham last night as it must have been warm and pretty breezy. I think you're right about the 3000m - I probably need a bit more strength as double my SB for 1500 is 8.18, so I should be able to hit the low 8.50's as standard really. I think my next attempt will be at Basingstoke in the BAL on 6th August - then i'll have a bash at that Watford one too - mine will be the 24th I think.
CC82 - hope you feel a bit better soon. Bus - Beech woods a drink?
24th for me too SImon. It'll be my 39th birthday, so a sub-9 would be a perfect present.
dachs - i think some people just have better speed bias. I used to put in my reports from the early days that i finished fast in 10k/half mara, and remember the distance i put into Chingo in my first 10k race at trafford. we were side by side going into 8k but i must have put a minute into him. And that was way before i raced a track race. So i think some of it must be natural.
There is a chap at our club who has a 14.40 5k and a 4.01 1500. He cant keep up with me on the short reps but he can keep going for ever and batters me on the longer stuff thats slightly slower. He cant run a 400 under 60s. so he has no natural speed bias but is clearly a talented runner to do a 14.40.
However i think its possible to improve a finish but the MD guys train shorter and faster so the body knows what "blast it!" speed is rather than "much faster than tempo" is. Or they do sessions like a 300m at 49s then the next 100 in 14 secs to get used to changing the pace up. this is often sessions that serve less purpose to guys who are 10k or half mara specialists. So its going to be harder to summon up in a race. basically horses for courses.
Still a very good time Dachs. The bounce back today is just one of those weird mysteries of running!
Simon - not a drink, just give shade from the pounding sun!
Track today and as feared it was a rubbish session! Intended 6x800m at 5k pace as a nice simple session, but abandoned after 4 as they were all slow, and getting slower, and my legs just felt like they wanted none of it! Not surprising, but still disappointing that it seems to take me forever to recover from anything these days.....
The speed factor is a strange thing. Two of my old running mates from Finch did leg#1 of the Bounder's Relay on Tuesday, along with me. Both had run PBs at Yateley this year and are of a similar standard. We used to spar at parkrun when I could run fast
Even with the heat and the shortness of the course (2.2X miles) the first of us 3 to finish was ~1minute ahead of the second. #1 had run an ultra at the weekend "to improve his mara times". So maybe volume does trump all at race distances?
Of note is their lack of cycling. They are pure runners and have both had training consistency for some years now.
I was about 25s down on protagonist#2 with my 14:07 for 3.4km in 33degC. For someone who thrives in the cold I'll take that
It never fails to amaze me how much the heat can take the pace out of legs though. Yesterday's easy effort was at 0630 to avoid the heat. Still didn't work!
Iron - I think that's because it was bloody hot even at 6:30!
Dean- 4.01 and unable to do a lap under 60? That's mental.
So another Luton training session at the track tonight, this time 10 X 600. .1.49 for the first then most 1.45/1.46 with the last 2 1.44 and 1.41 for the last one. Absolutely buggered now. Falling asleep typing this
Are you Boys doing Watford next Wednesday?
What are we all doing posting at this time?!
Still a seasons best Dachs and I'm sure there's a sub 9 in you. Don't think I possess any sort of top end speed. Certainly couldn't break 60s for 400m.
A clubmate of mine who I'm running leg 1 and 2 of the bob graham round with tonight has spent the last couple of months running 80-100 miles a week. Lots and lots of hills and not very fast. Last 10 weeks he's prob averaged 7-12000ft of hills per week. He's just ran a 10k PB in 32.49 with zero speed work and i think he's 35.
Mileage, mileage, mileage again. I'm sure the hills count as speed work unless he is crawling up on all fours?
I had a 10mi TT PB last night, taking 8s off my previous time. It was very hard fought! It seems I do better having raced or had intervals a couple of days before a TT.
With Watford - whats the policy with expected times. Does everyone 'lie' and put down 2 secs faster than pb to get in a fast race....or is it more honest
Fantastic reps and racing as always chaps. Not that I ever expect any different off you chaps! Very tasty first 400 there CC!
Dean, that is insane with the can't break 60 for 400 guy who can hit 14.40 5k! He can obviously keep a very high percentage of his top speeds! I've heard similar on this forum (not thread) before though.
Dean - if "YOU" are racing 3k, i wouldn't worry about what time you put down as you'll be A race material.
For me, it can make a massive difference...once put down 10.00 and had a cruise around in the C race running 9.46ish, when probably I should have been mid to low in the B race.
And the other extent, once put 9.30 down to be optimistic, and almost laundered my pants at being put in the A race, before begging to to go into the B (only 2 races that night), and still only coming about 5th in that one!
I think that night 9.36ish came last in the A race, so i'd have had to ruin myself to come last! Not to mention 5 pals were in the B race, including Stevie See.
enjoyed an 8x400 off 2mins today. Long recovery, as it was 1500pace (as opposed to 12x400 off 1min at 3k pace.
Best set of 400s i've done.
70x2
71x2
72x4
Enjoyed it, felt powerful.
quick
ML84 - Sorry, only had about 5 hours sleep. Trying to type with the Ipad in bed that is..
SG - Great reps, looking good now, nice 400's. Btw - I put 8.50 down for the 3,000 last year and was in the B race! Although that was good as I was at the front with Paul Adams and Tom Conlon from St. Albans.
Dean - yes there is about a 5 second lie usually. I think i'll put 4.05 down anyway, think I did that last time..finished 2/3 way down the pack.
Good bike type stuff Corts..
Some good training going on here. Nice 400's SG. Well done on the PB Iron.
I tried a tempo run yesterday, aim was 2 miles easy then 40 minutes then 2 miles easy. I couldn't get going, legs felt heavy and reluctant. Ended up doing 3 miles easy then 5 and a bit miles slow end tempo and a mile and a bit cool down.
Came out really slow, more like marathon pace. I think the heat has a pretty negative impact on my running.
I think I am going to target a 10k in the autumn, I've never trained specifically for a short race before so should be interesting.
Interesting stuff about the natural speed. I wonder what the best way is to discover your distance sweet spot?
Good chat on the speed / endurance topic
Nice 400s SG.
So, hit the track (yes, an actual f***ing track!) this morning and knocked out 4x 500m. I did it off 4 mins recovery but just checked back and realised it should have been off 5 mins. Oh well.
It's a bit arbitrary for me at the moment, but race calculators give me 2:17-18 for 800m, which I don't think I'd be capable of at the moment!! Maybe low 2:2x at a stretch!
Anyway, used 2:18 as the target for 800m pace just for shits and giggles, which gives a 500m of about 1:27-8. Turns out that was a bit ambitious, but with the backdrop of 1 min less recovery than I should have per rep, maybe I would have fared slightly better...!!
1:29.5
1:33.9
1:34.1
1:35.1
That first rep felt pretty much flat out, not sure how I'd have held up trying to run another 300m at the end... All good fun though. I was sharing the track with a bunch of guys doing circuit training in the sun - that looked much harder than running!
6.45 miles at lunchtime at 8:00 pace. All good
Some very nice reps going on chaps. SG - you going to put hem into practice any time again soon?
Talking of which - rubbish parkrun today! Forgot my Garmin, then finished in my slowest time this year and lowest finishing place ever at the Rye -18:39 and 7th.
It was hot, but I just didn't have the legs for it.
Reg- I've always found tempo stuff the hardest of the 3 main runs. Keeping a medium hard pace going consecutively for a while has to be harder than just smashing reps, or easy running. Unfortunately I used to find it's that necessary evil, as it's the closest of the 3 to race day!
CC, I think those are the fastest 500s this thread has seen in 6 years. so well done.
Having said that, i'm not sure I've read anyone do 500s before, what's that all about
Bus, decent sounding standard there today then, especially in the heat? I think when I got that 1st, that 2nd was slower than you were today!
I was going to do the Marlow 5k last Tuesday. But when the temp was set to be scandalously hot, I had to play the sense card, and remember the specialist's advice not to do anything "very strenuous". I think we'd all agree that racing in that heat, with my doubts would be very foolish.
Today I was excited to be doing a day trip to Bruges. Only been to 2 countries outside the UK, so was looking to add a third, as a possible leg up to a post running career
Absolutely gutted that the coach broke down at Folkestone! Meaning we basically had a 12 hour day, and only achieved getting to Folkestone and back! Knackered!
Nice reps cc. I have done 500s twice this summer and they are a hard session. As you take them on at 400 pace but the extra 100 at that pace is nails.
Seems like a fair decision SG regarding the heat.
From what I heard about that corner of Kent nothing was going anywhere near France, so you may have had a lucky escape. 12 hours to get through the border!
Grand day out then SG
LSR today. Emphasis very much on the 'S' !! 14.1M hilly, to make my first 50 mile week for 7 weeks!
As ever some great training and racing going on.
Dachs; Like CC82 said we're less expert than you but is this finishing speed not primarily just a function of age? I could never beat a decent 25 year old over the last 400m but would back myself against virtually every 50+ year old. Also must be lots of truth in what Dean said about people just having different sweet spots based on their genetics and training focus? In any event your times are still beyond most mortals' wildest dreams!
CC, SG, great reps and no issue doing 500's;surely as worthy as 400's or 800's.
First manic week for me for a while; My brother led us on a 150k improvised "Tour De Cotswolds" on the bike on Thursday then an 18i'45 pr Sat at Bracknell and 37'40 Elmbridge 10k in Walton on Thames today. Elmbridge is one top notch quality race; won by Phil Wicks in just over 30 and my time got me only 59th and 4th v50. Celebrated a bit too much at a local beer festival this afto but still got a bash at a 1 miler at Battersea tomorrow which should be interesting!
Nice running, Pete, you've been busy there.
Nice travelling, SG. People were playing tennis over the central reservation, why not do some intervals on the hard shoulder?
After a weekend of packing and sorting for this week's house move I got out last night for a 10 miler with a hill in the middle. Felt fresher and the cooler weather helped. Also I had an off road descent in the woods to negotiate half way through and it was getting dark so I was racing darkness. It was a bit sketchy as I wasn't really holding back and couldn't see much!
Run came out at 6:30/mi and I was running the same pace as my Tempo attempt for the last 4 miles without the effort. Glad the heat has gone away, doesn't agree with me.
Saw Jonny D has swapped the European championships for Reading Parkrun this weekend. It's a grounded sport this running lark.
Jesus SG - You must feel cursed! That must have been really gutting
Good stuff PeteM, good luck in the mile, the extra carbs should help.
I've had another quite low alcohol weekend, just one bottle on the train Friday night and only a couple of the alcohol free Erdinger over the actual weekend.
Did 8 reps over the track over the road on Saturday lunchtime, horribly warm and sticky so did a 100m hard, 100m jog round top bend, 100m hard, 50m walk and 50m jog - trying to hit around 12-13 secs for the 100's.
Just did an hour on Sunday with Watford in mind. However it was after family swimming, which always seems to make it torturous. Perhaps you get a bit dehydrated in the pool? it felt worse than the 13 mile/10k combo last weekend!!
Finally - Laura Muir. What a girl, love the way she attacks races.