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Old fashioned training
Had another chance this morning to chat to a guy that through the 80s and 90s ran 18 consecutive sub 3 marathons with a best in the mid 2.40s.
I was talking about his training and he said it was 4 weeks of 30 miles, 4-6 weeks of 40-45 miles and 3 weeks of 60 miles with a one week rest. He did only one long run (that is one - not one a week) of 18 miles - the rest being 6-12 milers and would never run easy with even the long run being at sub 7 minute miles. He'd then rest until starting training for his next - he'd do 2 a year Spring and Autumn.
I was talking about his training and he said it was 4 weeks of 30 miles, 4-6 weeks of 40-45 miles and 3 weeks of 60 miles with a one week rest. He did only one long run (that is one - not one a week) of 18 miles - the rest being 6-12 milers and would never run easy with even the long run being at sub 7 minute miles. He'd then rest until starting training for his next - he'd do 2 a year Spring and Autumn.
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That's the exception rather than the rule I think. We had some people say similar things on here recently.
How are you finding the increase in mileage? Don't overdo it by doing too much too soon, will you ?!
For your first marathon though I would advise going in knowing that you have run 23/24 miles in training. The confidence factor is great.
I've done 4 marathons now and I'm going to try a less mileage / more quality routine for Nottingham as I now feel confident enough to experiment.
First thing I'd do is map out your long runs until Sept 14th then build a training schedule around that.
After the thread that got posted recently on the FLM section What was your training mileage?? I had a look back through my training logs to compare my mileage during the 15 weeks prior to each of my 9 marathons. It turned out that the mileage I'd done prior to Chicago in 1998 was almost exactly the same as the mileage I'd done prior to FLM this year (488M and 480M, respectively) but in Chicago I ran 3:29 whereas I finished in 2:56 at London.
Before Chicago I was doing that mileage in 4 or 5 runs per week whereas prior to London I was doing 3 runs and a couple of x-training sessions at the gym. Examining the individual sessions the biggest difference was quality i.e. no 'easy' days during training for FLM, just 2 speed sessions (club fartlek on Tuesday, track on Thursday) and a long run (some long races and marathon pace long runs).
I know this doesn't work for everyone and I'm sure I'm limiting my performance somewhat by taking this approach, but I find I derive the most pleasure out of doing things this way as I end up injured much less frequently meaning that I can train more consistently and do not end up depressed because I can't run.
Sorry for being such a complete anorak and going off on a tangent
;-)
In reality, it seems to be more the case that I get very quickly to a reasonable level of fitness, then don't seem to advance a lot, then lose it all in the 3-week taper period.
Part of my problem is that I just don't understand physiologically what I'm trying to achieve. Obviously, I'm trying to increase my heart's capacity to pump blood to my legs (hence the interval training and lower resting pulse), plus I'm trying to gradually toughen up my muscles and joints to withstand the pounding (hence the long runs). Is that it though? What is it I'm getting from doing this for 16 weeks through the cold winter that I wouldn't from a 4-week blast in March? I mean, apart from shin splints?
It's just difficult to get through the pseudo-science and marketing nonsense - any help or useful links would be useful.
Whilst reflecting on my RW politically correct(-ish) but injury-plagued and generally crap (4.12) 1st marathon/FLM campaign (on the steps by The Mall that HOT spring day, nursing my ITB etc)..
..my 2.50 big bro pointed out that he never, ever, ever, ran more than 16 miles in training when he did m'thons in the late '80s/early '90s, concentrating instead on speed work, 10ks, halves etc in the lead-up
(Now he tells me....!)
t
Short and fast training will help you improve your times over a variety of distances, and on a good day, you might clock a fast marathon. On a bad day though, you'll bonk.
I think Steve Jones ran 2:07 on the back of his standard 10K training... but he only managed it once.
The smart thing to do is to train for distance first, then for speed in the last few weeks.
I'm very keen to improve and for two years I've thought more is better, and done the speedwork everyone else is doing because it is on the schedule. Also raced 35+ times per year (which I think is good speedwork). Now I think smarter is better not necessarily more.
Did you hit on what works for you by accident or design?
it's different
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0196.htm
Clearly there are other factors that come into play in the marathon such as physiology and psychology i.e. for many people I imagine it would be difficult to embark on a marathon having 'only' covered 10-15 miles in training and therefore the long run adds confidence.
If I ever do another marathon I will not go beyond 15.
I make them up myself... I've been running for almost as long as I can remember, and I've had a couple of coaches when I started... Since then, I've just talked to other better runners, and tried to figure out what they do, and why... After a while you just take what works for you and dismiss the rest... Pretty much what everyone else does on this forum.
A coach is great in that, they give you belief in what you're doing... if you're self-coached, unless you have a fair amount of experience, sooner or later you'll start having doubts (for instance, the last couple of weeks before London, I started really panicking, and not knowing what sessions to do anymore).
However, the bottom line is: running is far from an exact science... there are a few principles that seem to work, but the exact length and layout of any training programme and/or session does not matter nearly as much as people would have you believe. If you look at what the Kenyans do, it's far from scientific.
'Couple of years ago I did some treadmill tests at Loughborough, and I got talking to Spencer Newport (physiologist and quality runner). A VO2max and LT test gives you some very definite pace at which to do your training sessions, however, in practice, there is no point trying to hit those precise paces, as there are too many variables. People just go and do their interval training flat out... Same with heart rate training... There is a point where, if you want to improve, you should just throw the damn thing as it encourages you to be too cautious.
In short, you will improve simply by working hard over a variety of distances, at different paces. We're not Olympic athletes, so there is a lot of room for error. More importantly though, you have to be strong mentally, and be ready to make yourself throw up on these sessions... It takes a lot of pushing yourself beyond what seem reasonable limits to improve... I know there is a lot of talk about overtraining, but does anyone know just how hard it is to overtrain? I've run 100 miles a week, and I've always been injured or fed up with the whole thing, before being physiologically overtrained...
I would suspect that most people are more worried about pushing themselves too fast rather than too far i.e. just how hard can one push before the heart says 'enough!'. How long can someone reasonably expect to maintain close to max HR? or would lactic acid build up probably stop you before that happended?
I went to Loughborough university and had the opportunity to participate in some tests where I wore a different types of gas mask (with different amounts of air throughput) and was then required to walk up an increasingly steep treadmill until I couldn't anymore! That was the hardest 10 quid I ever earned.
I used to get to where I was in my last legs during speedwork but since having a couple of injuries and a virus picked up from what I thought was overtraining I've been running them in a more `controlled' way; setting a hard but manageable pace for the first couple and maintaining it for the next few before blasting the final one. Last time I did 16 400s on 45 secs recovery I did 76-77 secs until I did 72 for the last one.
From what you say I need to be aiming for quicker intervals for fewer reps then building the number up again.
That sounds like a decent session to me... I would not necessarily go for fewer reps, simply aiming to get the time down as an important race is approaching + making sure you do at least 2 such sessions a week, one tempo run, and one long run. However, to give you an indication, runners at my club who are of a similar standard as you would do those reps in 73/74 (perhaps they do less than you in between speed sessions). When you find you are really struggling to get any quicker, simply shorten your recovery. You should definitely see a fair improvement on that sort of schedule.
For me to run well I need 70+ miles a week. If I want to race a marathon I want to get up to 100+ miles a week.
I'm sensilbe with my diet & get some good sleep. I don't get ill or injured, my massage man is alway's amazed.
I belive I know how to train for a fast marathon but if someone else did the same it might not work for them!
I've got a physical job in being a bricklayer & I've asked top coaches Bruce Tulloh & Frank Horwill how this might effect me. I got no answer's, so I've only got myself as a coach.
I base a lot of my training on Cliff Temple's stuff & the best person I've ever herd talk about training is Mike Gratton, nice & basic.
Happy training all.
This thread makes me a little despondent, i really want to improve, but cant see how
It must be very hard hippo & I'm amazed that you manage what you do. Not sure I could work that long & train.
i also drink like a fish, and am fat
So I could improve in other ways
its notthe hours, the mental stress is worse
I havent gone running tonight cos of it, silly