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Is 2x 13 mile runs mid week to much?
I’m running the Belfast marathon on the 3rd of May and want to ensure that I don’t hit the wall badly like I have in my previous two marathons. I’m 40 years old and ran a 1:36 half marathon last June so according to the McMillan Calculator I should be able to run a 3:25 marathon. I was on course for this in Dublin last year until about 18-19 miles when I completely fell to pieces and struggled to the finish in 3:48. I had used the FIRST training schedule and had run 20 miles or more 5 times with my longest run being 22 miles 23 days before the marathon.
I’m now running 6 days a week with the following done last week –
Monday – 8 miles including 6 miles at Half Marathon pace
Tuesday – 6 mile easy with a few strides
Wednesday – 6 miles including 4 intervals of 1 mile at 10k pace
Thursday – 5 miles easy on Treadmill
Friday – Rest (Weight session)
Saturday – 17 miles easy with last 2.5 miles at MP
Sunday – 5 miles easy
The LSR will increase a bit every week until 23 miles but will only be run every two weeks with a shorter run of about 12 miles in between. I’ll also be increasing the tempo and interval distance runs a few miles. Every few weeks I also change an interval run for a hill run.
What other adjustments could I make to this plan to help me avoid hitting the wall again? I’ve been considering running home from work which is 13 miles mid week, then running back again the next morning as my car would be at work. Would this be advisable or would I be running a risk of injury or burn out? So far after a year’s training I have had no injuries or soreness and never have any issue with tiredness.
Thanks very much for any help or advice.
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Comments
Hitting the wall is normally a fuelling problem. What were you taking onboard and how often ?
Thanks cougie.
I had a 1.3 litres of a home made energy drink in a Camelbak which I drank every 2 miles until it ran out at about mile 20. I'd used this in all my training runs without any issues. I also had 4 SIS GO Gels taking one at the start, then at 7, 14 and 21 miles. I even had some of the isotonic drinks and another gel offered at the event when mine ran low.
Yeah, the 13 miles 12 hours apart would be tough but at least I'd have a nights rest in between and would be getting practise running on tired legs.
Assuming you were doing 8min miles (for argument's sake) you were taking on board a gel only once every 57mins and then as you slowed down it would have been longer between gels. You need to look at 60g of carbs an hour during the race whether that be by gels alone or drink alone or a combination of the two.
An SIS gel only gives you 22g of carbs and a Lucozade gel is 32g so you're looking at 2 gels per hour (irrespective of pace) as a minimum.
How much carbs are there in your homemade energy drink?
Your drink should have contained 100g of carbs and with gels at 0miles (30g for arguments sake), 7 miles (57mins), 14 miles (1h54mins), 21 miles (2h51mins) you should have ingested 190g of carbs which is *just* over the recommended 60g carbs/hour for those 3hours so something's awry with either my maths or your estimation of how many carbs were in your camelbak?
What was your diet like in the last 3 days prior to the marathon?
Quick q - sorry if i missed it - why only an LSR every two weeks instead of every week?? What is the current avg training pace of these runs excluding the MP section?
It sounds like you are lacking the stamina to run at target pace for 26.2 miles (especially if you have hit the wall more than once) therefore the LSRs should be the focus of this plan - you already have the speed, you just need to convert it over the distance.
I had this problem on my first marathon - 1:56 half pb turned to a 4:31 marathon time (except I didnt hit the wall my drop off was more gradual).
Anyway this build up I have concentrated on getting a lot of good LSRs under my belt and can now run 20 miles a 9 mins/mile very comfortabley...(target pace is around 8:30 mins/mile), I am also going to attempt to go up to 25 miles because I want to be sure on the day that I wont blow up in the last few miles!
Depending on your current pace of the LSRs you might want to think about skipping out the MP 2 miles and making thelast 6 miles or so progressive but nothing up to MP pace, just faster than what you were running.
By the way I dont use gels at all, but I think you also need to adapt your body to running without them on the LSRs because then come race day you will get added benefit from them instead of the usual benefit if that makes sense...they may be a useful tool for some but they are not a replacement for good training if that makes sense.
Sorry for the essay
From that excerpt of your mileages - I'd think that you need to be doing a few longer distances - so 10 miles plus rather than the max of 8 outside of your LSR.
Looks like you're getting far more practice in at the shorter runs and hence your half marathon time is better than your expected full marathon as that could be what you practice at most of the time.
Matchstick Man – My home made drink consists of 4 x 15ml measuring spoons of Palatinose and 1 x15ml of sugar with ¼ teaspoon of sea salt to 1 litre so I’m pretty sure I got enough carbs. I carbo-loaded from three days out although I didn’t eat as much as usual the day before due to being concerned about cramps. I did take another 100 odd grams of carbs in a large shake two hours before the race containing ultra fine oats, soya milk, some whey protein and loads of honey.
Curly45 – Most guides that I have read recommend only 1 x 20 mile run or more every two weeks as your body needs time to recover running that distance. I’ve been base training over November and December and continuing from this I try to keep my easy and long runs to 65-75% of my MHR which is about 8:30 to 8:45 on a flat.
The other time I hit the wall was on 1997 and I only ran a maximum distance of 14 miles in training so I deserved it that time!
Cougie – I’m 6 feet and only about 164 lbs so I don’t think my weight is an issue.
Thanks for all your advice everyone. I do agree that I need to increase my distances mid week and that why I’m considering the 13 milers. Hmmm, maybe I could drive to the train station and get the train to work and run back the 13 miles to my car after work! That way I'm only the one 13 miler mid week. Right, I think I’ll try that tomorrow – now to check train times
I think you only need to rest if your body tells you to with LSRs - I am usually happy doing one a week (some on the sub 3 thread do 2!) but sometimes I have to cut short...however, I dont think there's any need to only be doing one every two weeks if you feel you can do more.
Plans and guides are all well and good but the best training is dictated by what you can cope with - there's a fine line between the right training and exhaustion and part of it is learning to manage that!
I dont think midweek runs are a problem provided they are slow enough - just take it really easy and build them in as you go. I would still recommend having a go at one LSR a week though - maybe try a touch slower (although your pace doesnt seem to be bashing it with the HR bands) and do a route you can drop out of if you need to - perhaps a 1/18 rather than a full 20 +
I dont think its lack of racing practice at the distance I think its stamina - it would be interesting tor you to look at your pace degredation before you hit the wall last time and see how that compares with your pace on 20 milers at the moment.
Anyway like I say - try out what works for you - your body will tell you when its had enough! Good luck!
Curly45 – Thanks for all the useful advice. I think I’ll have to get over to the sub 3 forum and do a bit more reading their. I took the train in this morning so will indeed be running 13 miles back to my car later .I’ll try running a 20 miler every weekend and see how my body holds up.
Badbark - I'd still periodise the LR's, i.e. have a cut-back week every 3 weeks or so, with LRs 2 out of 3 weeks.
I agree you need to do a mid-week 'semi-long' run as well, which will make the weekend LR more manageable. Once you've got a couple of 12/13 mile runs done at an easy pace, start to make them progressive with a faster finish, or use the run to practise marathon pace. You could start with a chunk of something like 3 miles @ MP towards the end, then progress this over a number of runs to 2 x 3M, 2 x 4M... before switching to a single continuous effort: 1 x 6M, 1 x 8M, etc so that you're used to running around 8 - 10 miles at race pace, within a 13M run. This is a tough session though, hence the gradual build-up in MP mileage.
Looking at your original schedule, if you're doing LR on a Saturday, the best day for your mid-week run would be Wednesday. This would appear to mean sacrificing an interval session but your priority at the moment is endurance, so there's no harm in just making Monday your weekly 'speed' day. Your mile interval and HMP runs are both good sessions, so you can just alternate sessions like this on the Monday (and add in the odd hill session as you suggest). Then to my mind, Wednesday becomes your key mid-week session, and treat Thursday's treadmill run as a genuine recovery run.
PhilPub - Thanks that's looks like great advice and I can see the logic in all of it.
Time to rewrite my schedule a bit.