Moraghan Training - Stevie G



  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    Bus, ooh nettle rash, jeez!

    I once picked a route off the map only find my way (down a public footpath) barred by around 50m of solid nettles.

    I had the choice of going another way and getting lost or 'manning up' and 'going for it'. I mean, how much can it hurt?

    In light of the 'tough guy' approach to hydration demonstrated by some residents of this thread, I'm more than capable of doing damage to myself, or was. And did.

    In short, my thighs went numb pretty quick and I spent the rest of the day feeling as sick as a dog. I guessed there was something iffy in all that nettle sting.

  • RicF wrote (see)

    Bus, ooh nettle rash, jeez!

    I once picked a route off the map only find my way (down a public footpath) barred by around 50m of solid nettles.

    I had the choice of going another way and getting lost or 'manning up' and 'going for it'. I mean, how much can it hurt?

    In light of the 'tough guy' approach to hydration demonstrated by some residents of this thread, I'm more than capable of doing damage to myself, or was. And did.

    In short, my thighs went numb pretty quick and I spent the rest of the day feeling as sick as a dog. I guessed there was something iffy in all that nettle sting.

    Did similar last year. Path normally passable was up to elbow height. I tried to pick through it but in the end just ran. Had to do the next 6 miles resisting the urge to stop and scratch.

    Thanks Bus. It was nice to start running without pain vs the pain being there at the start and then going when the Achilles had warmed up.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Ric, if your fuelling system is so spot on, how come you don't do anything like it for race day image

    I tried it your way before a race once. Ended in the bushes at 11miles. My one pit stop in 149 races.

    Day report is a 6 and a 4. One a bit too fast, and one the right kind of vibe for it being half on hilly woods.

    Tomorrow is back to a proper session. The classic 6miles MP.

    Midday heat out on the road, or evening round a 0.9mile loop...decisions...

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    SG, Training is building. Racing is breaking. Different strategy required.

    What I do in easy training/recovery runs you now know.  For a race there's a different approach.

    For a race I try to eat everything I need the night before. If I wake up with at least four hours to go to the start then I'll eat something, but only protein, eggs, tuna.

    As for drinking you have to understand how your kidneys process excess fluid. Also to understand that under race effort they shut down. However if you have been drinking all the way to the start then even under racing conditions your system is trying to rid itself of excess fluid.

    So here's what you do to avoid trouble. Establish the start time of your race and do all the major hydration up to 2 hours before. Then stop drinking completely. Any excess fluid will now work its way through your kidneys and before the start of the race you'll be assured of an empty bladder.

    The next trick is to wait until about 5 minutes before the start and then whack down a load of fluid, enough to last the course. 1.25 litres for a blazing hot HM is my record. This fluid never makes it into your kidneys or guts and is just used directly in the race.

    Speed sessions, I mix things a bit but fully hydrated.

    I don't eat before the session but I do eat within minutes of finishing as with a race. I do the warm down full of food and water. Logical.

    Warm weather training is about increasing blood volume, so to make it work you have to be loaded up with water.

    One reason runners get so hot in a race is internal friction. This is most likely a hydration issue, possibly long term. 

    In my last race I've never seen so many runners remove their shirts and vests.

    I never felt like I was heating up at all, and only started to get into a marginal oxygen debt around the 3 to 4 mile point. Its nice to finish a race with an all out sustained sprint, I just wish it had been a ten miler.

    I'll stick my neck out and say that if it was a HM yesterday with the same runners, I'd have won by a street. They were all coming back. I just ran out of road.



  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    and to think they said it was a simple old game image

    I did laugh when I saw some fb people actually inviting it to be a scorcher for the local half marathon! Hilly half marathons in massive heat is not my idea of fun at all.

  • DeanR7DeanR7 ✭✭✭

    i think the titanic took on less water than you do Ric image  perhaps the reason you feel so strong after training sessions with 14 gallons on board is because you are stopping every 15mins for a slash. 

    we are all different but lets just say my experiences of hydration are sips over a long period prior to an event and nothing significant close to the start. Im happy taking a drink on in a race if i have to but like a F1 car the more fuel you have on board at the start the slower you are going to move.

    i will have a read back now to see what happend over the weekend, but i missed the race on sunday as the achillies wasnt quite right and the strain of attempting a sub 2 800m would have been too much and put me out of action for a month probably.  So i recover and go again next week

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    Dean, water is more like oil not fuel. And Alberto Salazar nearly died of heatstroke because of that water weighing him down approach. 

    My experience of hydration is that I actually know what I'm doing, It's why I'm still running after 25 years more miles than anyone else I know at 52.

    If I'm wrong about what I do in training, I'd like to know what getting it right is.

    Injury, illness perhaps.

    And that, really is that!

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    The bizarre one with you Ric, was you didn't turn up at Wokingham because it might rain a bit.

    But you'd turned up at a semi flooded monsoon conditioned course at Marlow a couple of months before, on a horrible hilly course

    Did I ask you about that bizarre combo? I can't not have surely image

    ps does anyone else have anything they'd like to hassle Ric about a little bit?

    How about why that Ron chap is always in all his pics? image

  • Stevie seeStevie see ✭✭✭

    I smash diet coke all day long and have maybe one glass of water after a run. But maybe that's where I'm going wrong, and really I'm an elite athlete trapped in a caffeine addicts body?

    I read in RW this month that runners who went sub 80 for the HM (6:06miles) ran their long run at 7:12 on average. How did this work for you guys? My easy pace has been at 7:35 for ages and sometimes dips to 7:20. Maybe I should try and push it on a bit?

    I tried today, went off a 7:10 pace, soon got to 7:00, then finished with two 6:25s. Not ideal in this heat! Whoops.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Personally, my easy pace zone was 7.24 to 7.55 when I started the big man's training plan See-man, and i'd gone sub 1hr 20 by then.

    Nowadays it probably sits in the 6.55 to 7.10 pace normally (pro rata if hills involved), but the zone is 6.53 to 7.45

    In the heat you probably in effect did a tempo image

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    ps I tend to limit diet coke (that we have a stack of in our office at work for free) to recovering after morning 12milers!

    Those and a nice tuna mayo jacket potato sort the recovery out.

  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭

    What you say makes a lot of sense Ric, but personally I couldn't contemplate starting a race with over a kilo of liquid sloshing around in my guts, as it would just feel really uncomfortable and nauseous. As you say though, it's worked for you over the years that's for sure.

  • DeanR7DeanR7 ✭✭✭

    I'd be willing to bet Salazar wasn't doing a 10m slow run in England. im not saying you haven't found something that might work for you but any advise that results in stopping every 15 mins on a long run does not sound like a great plan to me. But then I have only been running 2 yrs so what do I know, but I will never stop learning or listening.  I doubt even Ron hill would claim to know everything.  

  • Stevie seeStevie see ✭✭✭

    Bout time I did a bloody tempo run! image

  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭

    Missed all your post earlier somehow Stevie!

    My first sub 1:20 came off mostly XC long runs about 8:30 pace, but the road ones were about 7:30. Mind you, that was a bit of a freak event, as I was only running 40M a week and it took a long time to repeat it! Now, they're more likely to be 7:15 to 7:20 for a steady and closer to 7 if pushing it a bit. 

    Proper tempo runs are definitely the most difficult thing to squeeze in I find!

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    While respecting the Ric-man's 52 years of experience, I have to say that after taking ages to manage the undesired "removal" of products on runs, the last thing i'd want to do would be to invite going on the run...

    If you're splashing the lawns of your area, you have too much on board. Simples.

  • DeanR7DeanR7 ✭✭✭

    stevie see -  i remember when I knew I was getting somewhere with my training in the early days as I could hold 7 mm pace comfortably on long runs.  alternate the lsr paces every other weekend If 7 feels a bit hard.

    Just read back and belated congrats on the trophies pmj, SG and bus.  Must have felt good Philip leading them home to victory on the last leg.   Also a good track 5000 from johnas in tough conditions.

    also a special shout out to iron cat.  Rehab coming along nicely, keep the faith.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Right, today's runs on the paper were due to be a 4mile easy run, and a 10miler with 6miles MP.

    Did wonder about the sense of doing the latter run in the midday sun, but in the end thought screw it, get out there.

    Bit tight pelvis, but came out at an average of 6.04 pace, so nicely in the 6.00-6.10 intended zone.

    Accounting for the heat and the recent niggle, felt a good place to be.

    Just the 4 tonight much better than thinking about doing the above sesh tonight!

  • tell me about it SG. 4 miles this morning for me but I've got 6 Threshold (2) + 8 x 600 (200 jog) tonight and I'm looking out the window thinking feck, it's gonna be a tough sweaty mess tonight!

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    shoud be slightly cooler by the evening though image

  • Good racing at the weekend guys, especially in the heat. Sounds like the relays were a good jaunt and you came away with some nice looking sheilds PMJ and SG! nice age group win Bus and a decent 5miler in the heat from RIc and 5000m from Johnas.

    Glad to hear Ironcat is finally running image

    I suffered on Sunday in a 5000m on the track and DNF'd at 3600m. it was 29 degress and they even put a water station on the track. Just went off too fast  5:04 first mile and then gave up like a wimp. not happy with myself but you live and learn. Made up for it with my first double run day of 2013 yesterday. just an easy 5 and an easy 7, my names not Ric, I cant do 12 in one hit everyday..

    SG its not much cooler now than it was as 4 o clock! just heading out soon for a light tempo session.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Bad luck Seb, water at a track race wow! 5.04 first mile? You mentalist!

    And you're right, was still darn hot at 5.10 when I did the evening 4...felt just as hard as the earlier run.

    Doing 12 every day takes a strong composition I think, mentally and physically. Though it helps not doing 8hour working days on top of it!

  • DeanR7DeanR7 ✭✭✭

    tough 5000 seb.  But the heat was the reason so get yourself in another once the weather returns to normal.

    am I the only one enjoying training in this weather?  A cheeky 10m at 6.50 pace at lunch today.  Deliberately running in the sun and avoiding the shade, working on the tan.  I spent too many months this yr out in the rain or snow that I'm loving this heat.   I wouldnt want to race in it,  but easy running, bring it onimage

  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭

    Unlucky Seb - very hot for that sort of malarkey!

    Unusually the temperature today was at its warmest between 5 and 7 today - weird...

    Anyway, started my long run at 5:30! 20 miles done and dusted, but VERY slow. It was hard work from the off and slow enough for the first 17M, which averaged 7:32, but then I hit Amersham Hill (11:30 pace anyone image) plus a couple of other undulations, which made me blow up a bit and hit an average 7;50 for the 20. Still, it was HOT and hilly (around 900ft, mostly in the last 3M) and its out the way so job done! 

    Dean - I'm happy doing short to medium runs in the heat, but not fast or long image

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Ah Amersham Hill...I can remember a miserable 16, coming down that way last year when on the verge of the hip ache.

    Very nice run indeed doing a 20 in the heat. If ever there is a reason not  to do marathons it's the idea of midweek monster runs!

  • Stevie seeStevie see ✭✭✭

    Too hot for anything today! 6 x 800 (2mins) 2:46, 2:42, 2:44, 2:43, 2:42, 2:41. Bloody tough. My GPS died today as well, luckily had my phone on me so used the Nike+ app on my phone to track my run. Annoying!!

  • Club session for me tonight. Warm up in the hills then 8x400m (ish as a trail circuit) in around 72-75s then a few miles to a different destination then relay "races" .. Basically a 2x 4x250 session with jog recoveries. 

    Dean.. I enjoy the weather too, but like Bus, the long uns are hard work.. Nice 20 miler incidentally! 

    Seb.. Best thing is to mark it down as experience and look to the next one. 

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    ah I don't miss the "turn up and find out what the session is" club nights Tim.

    Stevie, I carry a stopwatch around handy just in case the GPS watch goes wrong these days. Would do a perfect job on the track, just need to estimate distance if it happens on other runs.

    Medium long run time in 30-40mins or so, 12mile job. Looks a bit hot already out there. Just weighing up carrying a water bottle or going without like normal and refuelling after.



  • DachsDachs ✭✭✭

    Bus, nice work, it's definitely good to have done it.  Likewise a 20 for me last night at a very similar time in the early evening.  Included a few miles offroad.  Average 7:10 mm pace.  Not fun. At all.

    Will catch up with others at lunchtime.

  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭

    Good pace though Dachs! We seem to have got onto the same long run mileage schedule. Must admit, it feels good to have got the first 20 out of the way - bit of a pyschological barrier broken.

    Funnily enough though, I was expecting to feel crap, but actually feel quite perky this morning and even cycled 14M in to work. I put it down to the slow pace,plenty of water after and also feeling too crap to face having a beer and some wine! Also, a light tea straight after with quality protein (fish stew) probably helped)

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