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Moraghan Training - Stevie G
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For a while after returning to running , when I was much less fit and running much more casually, i actually found it difficult to hit my training pace in races. I put this down to (a) nerves and (b) being used to running alone, I actually found running with people around me distracting and occasionally dispiriting. It's completely different now, but illustrates how people react differently to different cues, motivations and pressures.
you can't replicate the adrenaline race day brings, and the knowing it's for real.
I should mention that I've run plenty of tempos in the past but not now. The problem is recovery, or lack of.
Personally I'm aiming for almost instant recovery from any training session I do. A sign I'm right on top of the loading levels.
We do need to overload to some extent but if I'm still feeling the residue from a training session 48 hours after completion then I deem the session inapropriate.
I need a fair amount of control during testing sessions. With a fast steady run I lose control, getting clumsy when tired and ship too much damage.
That's what I get from a tempo run so I avoid them. If I want to mash myself in one long hit, then I'll do it in a race.
I'm aware that they are a favourite with many runners. I discovered they were a good way of masking residuel aches and pains, probably on account of the levels of heat and endorphins kicking in.
Unfortunately, going out the next day became a problem.
Each to his own on this one.
🙂
Adrenaline is remarkable in how it can draw a performance. A couple of examples:
Fatima Whitbread said the furthest she threw the Javelin in training was 60m. Couldn't chuck it any more than that. But she didn't worry because it meant she could hit 70m! in competition due to the adrenaline.
A weight-lifter looking at the weight he'd just broken the world record with. Mentioned that he never got anywhere such weights in training. Only the adrenaline of competition produces such performances.
Remarked that at that moment he could hardly believe he could get his winning lift off the ground, let alone overhead.
Like the almost casual mention of a sub 70 half marathon RJ.
Reminds me of a club mate over hearing a guy relating his latest effort in the London Marathon to his mate. "I went through 10 miles in 48 minutes, I thought it was a little quick, but didn't let it worry me".
🙂
Ric, something I've noticed in older runners (i'm sure you won't mind that term!), is that they don't do (m)any tempo sessions, and instead prefer to do loads of races instead.
Is that a recovery thing, an enjoyment thing, or simply has the will gone as you bid to hang onto your level rather than work your way upto your peak as per earlier days?
Anyone passing 10miles in 48mins within a marathon would surely have to be one of the best in the world? The chap who won Maidenhead 10 in 48mins a few years ago, forget his name, but wins Wokingham each year is a British level runner, and that's obviously his flat out 10mile pace.
Combined with your half time Jase, case closed, QED
SG - how very dare you! Must admit though, I would prefer a race over a tempo given the choice! Not sure it's an age thing as much as experience telling me to ask if the pain is all worth it for a tempo !! That said, I still try and do them but kind of view interval sessions as the soft option sometimes! Ric - I get where you ar coming fromrecovery wise - that's also an age thing to some extent. I can't take the punsihment I could even compared to just a few years ago....
Bus, I don't count you as an older runner, in the sense that you're still hitting pbs and on the up.
Thanks for that Dean, unsure whether I'm going to run, ideal hardcore conditions but I've got a feeling im going to tweak the Achilles again if I blast it. Might head up to the venue and see what it looks like and how I feel, and take it from there.
Really struggled with grip on tonights off roader, 6miles@7:36, lots of ice now, only to return home and find the Yaktrax had been delivered earlier and could have used them! slipped them onto a pair of flat loafers and went outside to test on an ice patch doing bleep test style backwards and forwards runs, perfect grip, unbelievable. will test on the trails tomorrow.
Tempos could probably be carried out quite easily in a race situation, say 5mile races, if you can hold back!
SG, its recovery to some extent but effective training more.
A simple example.
You can run for 5 miles at 95-98% of top speed for the distance in one go. What's the training effect? By what logic can this improve your speed over the distance?
Or you can run 5 miles made up of 400m intervals with sufficient recovery where the speed of the runs are 5% faster than you would manage in one continous run.
In the first example who are going slower than race pace, in the latter example, faster. Are we training to run faster or slower?
If I only jogged slowly in training, then a tempo run would be a halfway house to racing. Its relative speed.
Personally I don't bother with tempo runs because they've been replaced with more effective interval sessions.
🙂
Horse for courses Ric!.
My understanding is that intervals are for increasing VO2 max, running speed etc. Tempos are for increasing lactate threshold. Of course I can't explain which of my quality runs have improved what; I do track intervals and tempos (when there is no ice on the ground!).
I prefer intervals tbh, as the pain is over quicker.
Firstly apologies for my horrible typo in my post.
Stevie - not crazy mileage. In my last marathon build up I probably peaked at 87 and averaged c75 over 18 weeks.
I also have lots of down time after a major race so when I get back to it I am incredibly unfit but I believe this also helps long term in getting the body to recover completely from the main races. I will typically have two A races for the year and simply dont have the metal reserves to cope with any more. Last year I didn't break 3000 miles so less than 60 average for the year.
I know it's not really your bag but I bet if you were to train for a marathon, you would get fitter than you have ever been. The long runs of 20 miles plus give you so much, and I wouldn't be surprised to see you chip minutes off your half times if you did. You may say that you dont fancy doing 20 milers because you find 15s and 16s long enough when half training but that is because you are training for a half. I can guarantee that if you were training for a marathon then 20 milers wouldnt seem so bad after the first couple! Because it's virtually all in the mind!
I see the logic of VO2 max intervals too but I dont think you can do them for too long without experiencing too many peaks and troughs. That has certainly been my experience but then I do tend to use them as icing when trying to peak for my a-race. If I was more focused on 10ks than marathons and halves then granted I would do more of them.
I think you have some usefu points there Jase, especially the grammatical recovery
.
I did a lot of long distance training, starting back in July '11 (3 months before Beachy Head marathon), then continued the LD stuff until July '12. I think this has given me a huge base that I am now just beginning to build upon with speed work.
Ironcat, think you're right. There's no way you can run to your potential in halves (or should it be halfs?) and marathons if you dont have a well developed lactate threshold.
Valueable thoughts RJ. Maybe the perfect angle is to train for a marathon, but NOT do the actual race?
That way you get the fitness benefit, but not the massive risk of the race day pace.
I suppose my main thoughts, in honesty, are that it can feel like constantly doing the rehab to keep me doing my current level, so upping it from here might risk a breakdown.
But I suppose you have to risk breakdown, or you'd never improve!
One thing I noticed on my 12.5miler today, was just how non tired afterwards I was. I remember the days a 10miler would utterly tucker me out for the rest of the day and I'd have to sleep! Probably being able to use road trainers for the first time in a week helped!
Popping in with a newbie question: so I ran 5 miles on the treadmill on Monday at 8:30 minites per mile pace, then did the same on Tuesday at 8:00 and today 7:30 pace. So obviously I will carry on gettign faster and faster so once I am running at 5:00 minutes per mile, how can I train so I can do a 2:12 marathon at that pace? Is it going to be soon enough that I need to enter London this year?
Anyway, my thoughts are:
- your aim seems realistic, but you probably need to check progress regularly, so get yourself to a parkrun every week and try to take 30-45 seconds off each time.
- try one of the 8 week marathon training programmes recommended by sports drink companies. These are well known to be foolproof.
- if in doubt, employ a run-walk strategy. You will need to do the walking bit at 5.30 minute mile pace
- make sure you post the same thing again and again in multiple threads across all forums, just to cover all the bases.
I think you'll be fine for Rio PMJ.
Phil, you'll have to add to the title 'Can I' or 'How Long' as well.
Why do posters stick those on threads? All I can answer is 'I don't know, I'm not you!'
🙂
You will need to stick to a protein only diet and fast every Wednesday if you want sub 2:12 at this year's VLM mind.
Where've you been Philip?
Seb - will be interested to see how those Yaktrax do. I waited as long as possible to go for my run today, as the delivery tracking for the Orocs said the courier had them at 10.01 - never bloody turned up though! Given the ice is all gonna be washed away over the weekend, I might be sending them staright back!
I just posted on some similar thread tonight
A guy with a pure meltdown as he goes longer distances. He's probably trying to run halfs and marathons off 20miles a week or something, because he can blag a decent 5k off that.
RJ - I totally agree with you on the long run making a difference to 10k/HM performance. I upped my long runs of 14 miles (I'd go 2-4 weeks without one sometimes) to consistent 18-19 milers and my fitness rocketed. I hit the line at Leeds Abbey Dash knowing I was fitter rather than hoping as previously. That's why now I do 17-18 every Saturday. Base endurance gets overlooked I feel, and like you say speed work is the icing on the cake.
I clipped off 12.5 tonight in 7:20 average with a lovely low HR of 158 beats per min. Well within my 'areobic' zone. So pleasing, bloody cold though!
Lol dachs - you jest but belief really really does go a long long way. The training helps back up your beliefs sure but if you dare to dream then there is more of a chance than if you don't. Just look at my football club bradford city! There is no logical reason for them to be in the final but they are. They wouldn't have got there without a big dose of belief.
IIll, but seem to be better now and foot is OK so a campaign begins.
Jase, there's a few cautionary tales from this thread alone of what the marathon can do! Ranging from a couple of weeks of injury to completely ruining half a year!
I covered 26.2miles in an odd Marlow club event once on a boiling hot day. Feeling like death didn't quite cover it!!
Adrenaline is a funny one and also sure it gives competitors something extra but I suspect this is far more relevant to explosive sports rather than long distance running.
I guess some folk do their tempos as part of races, which is cool and these will no doubt give you the same physiological benefits as a good hard tempo run on your own. But I'm not convinced they will give you the same benefits psychologically.
I'll quote Bruce Tulloh from his article on Half Marathons.
" In the half-marathon you are running 11 miles or more at a steady state, as close to your maximum oxygen uptake as you can go without accumulating lactic acid".
He then added that therefore you need to do most of your good training at around your best 10k pace.
Also he said that its more important to work on speed than endurance.
So a few ideas about the event from that. One that stuck was the lactic acid thing. Implies cruising until the final two miles when hopefully we can finish like Dean R.
🙂