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The Conservatives back in 10 Downing Street.
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I agree, Mister W
Some public schools are quite academic.
And plenty of public school kids go to universities like Oxford and Cambridge.
I don't know if they get a special entry route based on poshness, or whether they have to compete with all the other kids trying to get an Oxbridge place, though.
Time to stick my head above the parapet.... I went to a public school for two years, from 16 to 18. I was at a standard comprehensive before then so I'm in a pretty good position to compare the two systems, or at least the two schools. The public school I went to was without any doubt at all turning out better educated people that the comprehensive school I went to. There's far more emphasis on actually educating kids rather than meeting targets. The teachers and kids are better motivated, the school hours are longer, everybody works harder and the exam results are better.
Having said that, there are plenty of very smart people who didn't go to public school so it really shouldn't be an issue. What matters is if that person can do the job and most people starting new jobs get at least a couple of days to settle in and work out where the coffee machine is before any judgement is made on their performance.
But being smart and being educated are not necessarily the same thing, though.
Anyways ... at the risk of being seen as coming from a long line of flat cap class warriors ...
... my father (RIP) was an NCO in the navy and had a great phrase for what he perceived to be educated but unworldly officers - "he can work out the square root of a jar of pickles but can't open the bloody thing!"
I'm not too worried about where these people went to school either, just how they do the job. You don't always have to have had the same experiences as a person to have empathy with them.
But isn't the House of Commons called so because it represents the common people? Some of the MPs should reflect that.
As for the House of Lords, I don't think they should be elected by the general public. They are the ones who should be very smart as a check on popularist policies and laws and not voting along party lines. Of course, your great, great grandfather owning half of Cornwall, doesn't automatically qualify you either.
I went to "minor" public school and hated every minute of it. I got in because I got a scholarship at 11+ (as it was in them days). You took your exams and the school was allocated on the basis of your exam results. I obviously pulled the wool sufficiently over their eyes for them to send me there.
It was full of snobs - people to whom class was more important than anything else. When I left, I went on to a "red-brick" university (Bradford) because I like the course and loved the place. The school tried to refuse to send my UCCA form is because it was "not the right kind of university for our gels." The norm being Oxbridge / Durham / Bath etc.
I'm now just Mrs Average, but with a particularly strong dislike of the type of people that I encountered at school - and their parents. They were all bluer in extreme.
And the results are that we still have a society where the three most important politicians are from a tiny handful of the most expensive schools in the country. That is either a massive coincidence or a pretty poor comment on the equality of opportunity we have - which would you go for ?
As for public schools producing better educated pupils - they may get better A level results but it's shown that A levels are actually a poor predictor of academic performance beyond A level.
Mr Cameron is a case in point for me. Eton, then Oxford, then straight to Conservative Central Office to advise on policy (on the basis of what life experience?). Decides to spend a few years working outside politics so goes to Carlton TV as a PR man. Not any PR man but director. Clearly a case of working the old school and contacts system, I doubt merit had anything to do with it. Then back to politics and a safe seat.
Fair play to his family for giving him a leg up. And fair play to him for getting to the top, which you don't do without being pretty clever and stabbing a few people in the back on the way. But you have little chance of such achievement if you don't start out by knowing the right people. I'd like to give a similar leg up to Muttley Jnr, of course ... but he's at the local comp and I'm not a minor aristocrat.
But anyway ... as I said before, I'm impressed despite everything with what he's done so far, so we'll see how it continues.
I wonder.....
Your average kid in a comprehensive is less likely to have exposure to politics, polititians, etc., that someone whose family has some money, or social connections, or is a member of the rotary club, freemasons,etc.
Perhaps the comprehensive kids wouldn't even consider a career in politics, because that's something so far outside what they know.
At a guess, I'd think that a lot of labour politicians have come to it through being active in trades unions?
That is such a brill saying
I feel everyone should be entitled to a great education and it shouldn't depend on the wealth of your parents, it makes me mad when people say 'it's a choice' to send your child to private school....I have 2 children I work part time, my hubbie is a college lecturer, we live a very modest life, private education isn't an option,. does this mean my children deserve less?
and something else that gets right on my t*ts is the I'm alright Jack mentality, for a society to run successfully we need everybody working together whether you are a dustman or a doctor, everyone's role is valid, we can't do it alone.....
It's a fact of life that if you have loads of money, you can usually buy better quality goods and services that if you have little money.
Spence, your children don't deserve less, but does that mean that people who can afford a private education shouldn't have one?
I agree, Spence. My parents chose to send me to public school for my A levels because the 6th form where I lived (comprised of 6th forms from three schools and an FE college) was pretty poor. I was fortunate that my parents could afford to pay for two years of my education and I know how lucky I am but it would be have been far better if the 6th form was good so everyone had the same opportunity.
ex - CJBA, Mutters. You were my "bimbling hero"
Wilkie, part of me wants to say no! but that just makes me sound like a commie,
the state system should provide the same opportunities...........so many families are locked into a cycle that isn't good for the rest of us.
My kids will go to the local comp, but they are lucky, they have parents who value education and have a work ethic a lot of kids don't even have that
Re private education, it's not necessarily better, just smaller class sizes, more money and snotty heads who refuse the rabble before they even cross the threshold, so classes are "quieter".
That said, the school I attended bred a generation of "gels" who felt that the world owed them a living. We left school (VI th form) believing that we were better than everyone else, having had that drummed into us since we started. Those that couldn't achieve academically were moved into the "Remove" and left to fester. We were not taught to think for ourselves, we were fed the information necessary for O and A Level exams, then expected to regurgitate it in the exam.
I started at university, absolutely thrown as I was expected to form my own opinions and I didn't have the slightest idea how to.
We were expected to go into medecine, law (oddly not money which was considered "dirty) and not much else. Drugs were not unknown, as was rebellion, pretty much the same as in the local comp, except with much more £££££ and on the whole, we came out a pretty unbalanced lot.
My two, even though they'd get into the same sort of school, go to the local comp. I wouldn't wish my experience on them. Happily, they're more grounded and rounded ( I think
) than I was at their age.
Even in communist societies the families of the elite have much better lives than those of the prolariat.
It's just human nature, I think, however unfortunate that may be.
I don't begrudge people who are better off than me having things I can't afford. Why waste time on being envious or getting bitter?
Wilkie, you are right about communist societies, it is human nature unfortunately
I very happy with my lot, health is the most important thing anyway, without that money is worthless
Yes it does. How can there be any kind of equality of opportunity when our education and future is so dependent on the wealth of our parents ? As Muttley points out - would your average kid from the local comp have had a chance of taking Cameron's route ?
Even the Tories claim to support equality of opportunity but the background of their own party elite suggests they don't care enough about it to actually do anything. Other parties aren't perfect either of course.
I don't have a problem with privately educated individuals - but I do have a problem with the most influential positions in our society being disproportionately stuffed with them because inevitably it influences the kind of decisions that are made.
I do agree it's not worth being envious or bitter - I prefer to think of it as being principled
Which nicely illustrates the point I'm making: The three day week was a product of trying to curb rising inflation with pay restraint/freezes- inflation was had risen to 14% - wages were to be cut - something had to give. The reason inflation was rampant was largely as a result of the 1973/4 Oil Crisis which hiked the price of oil from about $10 a barrel to $100+ In 1974 The NUM were mandated by their members to take action and an unelected politically inspired force held the country to ransom... However, if the unions in 1979had have had the mass media in their pockets (Like big finance does) The Winter of Discontent in 1979 would now be known as 'happy holiday time'
Over the last two years we have seen the largest ever transfer of money from poor to the hyper rich - it was grand theft capitalism and it was of epic proportions,it was carried out in broad daylight and there were billions of witnesses who saw it happen - it's now being re-written and as usual the villains are blaming the victims... and making them pay compensation
If you're not outraged by this - you just weren't paying attention...
lot written about equality of opportunity and the other classic "meritocracy". The former perhaps desirable and worthy of working towards. I have big objections to meritocracy.. Not sure that a society that rewards people according to merit is that good. Lovely for those at the bottom eh? They would be there because they are the "stupidest". and "less worthy" . A society with a class of genuinely"stupid and "less worthy" is a desirable goal?- think again folkies and think hard. If you were shit and knew it -would be fun eh? Those at the top would know it to. Imagine the smugness and arrogance they would carry. I dont mean those at the top of our present sociaety -most aint so bright but the real clever ones in a "real" meritocracy
Some from the right claim that we are a meritocracy which is utter crap.
The usual "boring" attack on communism and even socialism by using USSR and China is also tosh. Marx and marxists argue that communism comes out of the breakdown of advanced Capitalist society . China and USSR were agrarian societies . Unsure why those who come across as knowledgable should not know that little fact.
Nothing to do with human nature more to do with ideology. Dog eat dog society just produces damaged and miserable "dogs" -Whoopie do what a thing to accept.
True communism has yet to come about. I can see and I am sure you "knowledgable" peops here can see that the cracks in Capitalism are getting deeper and more visible.. Eventually a new system will evolve. Some will probably wait until it bites them on the arse before seeing through things.
I
Sorry Hoose but communism sucks...
All ideologies which rely on an unrealistic appreciation of human nature are wrong.
A Marxist analysis of how capitalist industrial society works is relevant even today - but Marx got it wrong big time when it came to human nature...