Breaking 40min 10k

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Comments

  • Calum- to me, whilst you only have three runs a week, you are trying to squeeze too much quality in and completely disregarding your aerobic system, which is the biggest contributor in a 10k.

    Your steady pace appears to be faster than your current 10k pace and 30 secs a mile faster than Lt pace?? I also don't think 7 miles Lt run is necessary for 10k training.

    On three runs a week I would look to do an Lt run, a run of circa 10miles at about at 8.15-8.30 mm pace and then another shorter run where you maybe throw in some strides. 

  • DT19 - cheers.

    I should have put a bit of commentary in there.

    ST = "Short Tempo"

    MT = "Mid Tempo"

    LT = "Long Tempo"

    It's the terminology from the Run Less, Run Faster book which served me well last time out, but I'm starting to doubt it.  The theory is that because you're only running 3 times per week, you do, purposely inject quality into each run.  So the 10 miles @ "Long Tempo" pace seems way faster than a normal "long run" but that's the point.

    There is also the 3+2 part of this - on top of the 3 runs, there should be 2 cross-training sessions (non-weight bearing - so cycling or swimming).  That "replaces" the recovery run side of things effectively and works the aerobic system.

    That's the theory anyway and it did work last year for me, but I'm not sure if there would be a better way to train over the next 6 weeks.

    Do you reckon doing something like you suggest above for those 3 runs but add in another couple of easy runs perhaps?  Would I get the benefit from that in just 6 weeks in the lead up to the 10k race?

  • Oh - and I should also have said, that due to missing a few sessions and the "build up" to my first 10 miler of the year, I'm not actually hitting the paces in that training plan at the moment.  On the shorter stuff (400m / 800m intervals) I am and I'm pretty close on the circa 3 mile tempo runs, but the 10 miler I went out on yesterday, I averaged 7:52 per mile.

    That wasn't all out effort - nowhere near it actually.  It was relatively comfortable all things considered (off the back of a cold at the end of last week).

    Also - my HM PB ran last summer was 97:33 - just in case that makes any difference!  (Average of 7:23 per mile)

  • I don't see the actual purpose of the two main runs, it way too fast for your ability. Most of oit is even faster than 10k pace.

    None of it is improving your lactate threshold or aerobic ability, the two main contributors to improve for a good 10k or half. Your long ten mile tempo is pretty much at 10k pace. Even though its only three a ssions a week it looks exhausting.

    It kind of resembles a get rich quick scheme or 6 minute abs or something!

    I really think you would do better following the more conventional wisdom of a running plan with sensible paces for each run. 

  • Hi DT19 - thanks for the comments again.

    I don't have the luxury of speaking to guys at a running club with more experience than me etc. as I simply can't fit that into my life at the moment.  So, I'm looking for some advice on here from some of the more experienced guys.

    Thanks for the suggestions in your first response - what would you suggest as a good pace / distance for me for the LT run and similarly with the shorter run with strides?

    My 10k PB is 42:01 which from memory equates to 6:46 miles.

    I haven't raced 5k before, but maybe 4 weeks before that 10k PB last year, I did a 5k time trial on my own on a fairly hilly course in 20:11.  I think in a race on a flat course I could go sub 20 for 5k.  But, I haven't actually done that.

    I'm also up for doing more than 3 runs per week - I can run most lunchtimes, so 4 or 5 runs during the week plus a longer run at the weekend (anything up to about 2 hours) - so do you reckon the above 3 runs plus 2 or 3 easy runs would be beneficial?  What would be a good pace for the easy runs?

    Cheers

     

    (By the way, I'm not trying to defend my plan or anything (so don't think I'm not listening because I am!!) - just trying to put it into context.  The plan is lifted from the Runners World book, Run Less, Run Faster, written by the guys at the Furman Institute - I was alerted to that by reading about it on this site somewhere.  I read the book and the theory for the different workouts seems sound to me (but I'm not by any means an experienced runner) and the plan worked wonders for me last year.  It may sound like a "get rich quick" scheme - particularly with the "Run Less" title and it probably is marketed that way to be honest.  But the book still advocates at least 5 workouts per week, and if you add in a strength session, 6 workouts per week.  It's just that only 3 of them are running.

    As I said, it's the only plan I've used as I only started training properly at the start of last year, and any structured plan would have probably saw me improve vastly on my previous PBs as I'd never really trained before.)

  • The problem in assessing your lactate threshold is you dont have a current race time. If it were based on your 10k pb it would come out at 7.04 mm. The problem is that if you are not currently in that shape and train at that pace you will be training above the threshold and so missing the point of it.

    I just think at your level and where you are trying to get, you dont need anything as radical as the above and following established logic should work for you. Its about being consistently consistent so building up to a schedule ie 35-40 miles a week that you do almost every week, not 18 miles one week then 50 the next etc. The sort of schedule above maybe the sort of thing someone might try when trying to move to sub 35 perhaps.

    Im at the 39/40 min level and my easy runs/long runs will come out at anything from 7.50 - 8.20 mm. Its rare i am much quicker than 8mm. Prior to commencing marathon training my schedule was something like this-

    Monday- 5 mile recovery run- 8.30 mm or slower

    Tuesday- Track session of intervals usually between 800m and 1600m (normally covering 6 miles in total with warm up and cool down)

    Wed- Rest

    Thurs- mid week longish run circa 10 miles easy pace

    Fri- Threshold session- say 2 x 15 minutes at LT pace- usually about 9 miles with warm up and cool down

    Sat - Either a spin class or an easy 7/8 miles.

    Sun- Long run up to 14 miles

    I appreciate that structure wont fit for you, but it must give you an idea of how you might b making it tough for yourself with the paces?

  • That's great - thanks DT19.



    It's weird how I can read all sorts of running literature and examples of people tiring themselves out by doing too much but I still want to go and nail 10 mile runs at 7 minute miles...



    I feel no ill effects of running 10 miles at 7:52 a couple of days ago but I need to tell myself that I could be hampering the quality midweek session if I don't back off the pace a bit . 7:52 isn't that quick though thankfully - I did a similar session last year during HM training at 7:30s...



    Anyway - do you think it would be worth a 5k time trial given that I will struggle to get a race time? I could do that today and see how I get on.



    I think I would be able to go at about 7:00 - 7:10 minute miles for an hour at the moment if pushed. I've ran 8 miles in about an hour (fairly recently) and not been knackered so I think I could (if going balls out) get close to 8.5 miles in an hour. In fact that 10 miler at the weekend I was at 8 miles in 1:00:41 and was still feeling good for another couple of miles at that intensity. Does that help with trying to work out LT Threshold?



    Thanks again.
  • Stephen Poole wrote (see)

    Just another update, running about 30 miles per week now and been uninjured for 6 months, managed to run 35:46 today so very pleased, hopefully can bring the times down further this year image

     

    You bad boy!!! That's an amazing improvement. I told you 2013 would be a good year......

  • So - got an updated training plan thanks to some great advice from johnas.  Yesterday's session was 6 x 1km @ 6:42-6:44 per mile with 1:30 recoveries.  Hit the target pace on all intervals, tomorrow's session will be a threshold session - 6 x 5 minutes @ 6:55 - 7:00 with 1:30 recoveries.

    Cheers John!!

  • FIRST works well, but does claim a lot of people on the way through injury. And you need to have a 'raced' 5km time to base things off; parkrun is a good opportunity.

    Sounds like you're sorted either way.

  • IronCat5 wrote (see)

    FIRST works well, but does claim a lot of people on the way through injury. And you need to have a 'raced' 5km time to base things off; parkrun is a good opportunity.

    Sounds like you're sorted either way.

    Yeah - FIRST worked well for me last year, but any structured training program would have worked well for me because I'd never done any structured training (or really any training at all - just the odd run now and again).

    But yeah - getting to Parkrun is a bit of an annoyance for me so I just ran 5km hard in 22 minutes towards the end of 2012 and based my training times on that.  I did sort of guess my 5km time this time around, which probably wasn't a good idea...!!

    It was a good introduction to structured training for me because I couldn't see myself running more than 3 times a week a year ago but now I want to run more than 3 times per week, but the aggressive training paces in the FIRST plans don't really allow for that.  I tried one extra recovery run in the middle of my HM plan last year and got injured.  Luckily it was minor and cleared up within a week or so, but I think it demonstrates that although I felt like I was coping well with the paces etc. that I was right on the edge of pushing too hard / doing too much.

    I'm going to move away from that from now on and go with something more "traditional".  Still got one eye on a sub 40 min 10k at the end of March, but if it doesn't happen I won't be devastated.

  • That sounds a bit more sensible Calum. I still think its worth racing something to get a clear idea of LT pace etc.

    Hopefully with slowing all your sessions down a bit you will realise how unneccessariliy hard you were training.

  • IronCat5 wrote (see)

    FIRST works well, but does claim a lot of people on the way through injury. And you need to have a 'raced' 5km time to base things off; parkrun is a good opportunity.

    Sounds like you're sorted either way.

     

    DT19 wrote (see)

    That sounds a bit more sensible Calum. I still think its worth racing something to get a clear idea of LT pace etc.

    Hopefully with slowing all your sessions down a bit you will realise how unneccessariliy hard you were training.

    I think I already realise!  image

    Yeah - I would like to get a Parkrun in, but it's just tricky.  Nearest Parkrun is an hour away, so that means a good 3 hours out of a Saturday morning to "just run 5k" - difficult to justify when I could go out and run 5k and be back within about 40 minutes (including warm up).  Family time takes priority at the weekends!

  • yeah i get your point. Train to the paces you have for now and use the next 10k as a marker to establish where you then are.

    I used to do it myself. A 10 miler wouyld always be a flat out affair and i would be wiped out for rest of day. Now I have dropped a minute a mile off my pace for those things, once I ahve had a stretch and shower etc i can almost forget I have even run.

  • DT19 wrote (see)

    yeah i get your point. Train to the paces you have for now and use the next 10k as a marker to establish where you then are.

    I used to do it myself. A 10 miler wouyld always be a flat out affair and i would be wiped out for rest of day. Now I have dropped a minute a mile off my pace for those things, once I ahve had a stretch and shower etc i can almost forget I have even run.

    Yeah - on the Parkrun thing on a Saturday morning.  I would pretty much have to choose between getting on the long run or running the Parkrun (and the long run taking less time out of the day and causing less hassle).  With less than 7 weeks until the 10k, I'd rather get the long runs in and accept I may be slightly out with the training paces but I don't think they are wildly wrong now (they were all too quick until I reassessed yesterday).

    Thanks again for the tips!

  • CC82 I have been reading over the various 10k threads the last few days and your one of the names that have been on them all pretty consistently and have 10k times that line up with mine.

    Im just starting to get my head around putting in some speed training, although I mostly rotate mile reps and tempos due to the fact I run a fair amount higher mileage for longer distances but have picked up some good ideas for running short intervals too.

    Anyway, I mostly just wannted to ask how you got on in your 10k? 

  • Some good stuff on this thread - I am also looking to break 40 minutes for 10K but have only been training consistently for 2 weeks and I'm starting to wonder BUT I still firmly believe it is achievable if I am willing to suffer.

  • Hold 3mins 59 secs/km for 10 kms in a row or run 6.2 miles at 6m 25sec pace to yield a sub 40 min time for 10km. A sub 40 minute time for 10km is harder than a sub 90 minute for HM. A sub 41 min time for 10km predicts sub 90 minute time for HM.

    If you can run sub 40 minutes for 10km you can run sub 90 minutes for HM and close to a sub 19 minute time for 5k.

  • kallum w wrote (see)

    CC82 I have been reading over the various 10k threads the last few days and your one of the names that have been on them all pretty consistently and have 10k times that line up with mine.

    Im just starting to get my head around putting in some speed training, although I mostly rotate mile reps and tempos due to the fact I run a fair amount higher mileage for longer distances but have picked up some good ideas for running short intervals too. Anyway, I mostly just wannted to ask how you got on in your 10k? 

    Only just saw this.

    I didn't get a sub 40 10k in March.  The story of my race is somewhere else on this forum, I forget where...  It was very windy and very hilly, so by about halfway round I'd nearly given up on going sub40.  I got to the 5k marker at 20:40, so it would have needed a very quick second 5k to break the 40.  It continued uphill into the wind until at least 6k, so didn't feel like I was gaining at all.  Then we turned a corner at about 7k and started running downhill, wind assisted.  Felt pretty effortless so the first 6k hadn't broken me.  I clocked 36:20 at the 9k marker, so thought there may be an outside chance of sneaking under 40 with a very fast last km, but a group of us got directed the wrong way just after that 9k marker and we ended up running something like 11.5k - I gave up once I realised what had happened and got a stitch and walked a bit.  I trotted over the line eventually with a time of 47:xx!!  5 minutes slower than my PB.  I had a bit of a calf strain too so the training didn't really get going until a couple of weeks later.

    Firmly back on it now though.  Did the Parkrun two weekends ago and got 19:34, and have 2x 10k races over the next 2 weekends.  Pretty confident of the sub 40 now as training has been going really well.

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