RW Forum Six – Sub 3.30

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  • Tenj - as above with nothing before a marathon.  My PB was run last year at GNR and I hardly managed any warm up and the first mile was quite slow.

    Sarah - HERE is the link to an article 'rethinking junk miles', which I think is well worth a read.

     

  • liking the discusions on warm ups before racesimage

  • Hilly- some very impressive PBs there. image

    Sarah- well done on the race. 7mm in those conditions sounds very respectable.

    I used to be useless with warm ups until I started being coached. Now I think nothing of running to the start of a race and back if its within 5m from home. I do get strange looks when I announce after a 7.5m xc that i don't need a ride as I'm warming down on the way home...

    I do struggle however with big races. Often it's a choice between getting a good warm up in or ensuring that you position yourself in the correct pen with plenty of time to spare. I didn't do much warm up before the Reading half or Royal Parks for this reason but both races went well so not sure how much it affected me.
  • Only just come across this thread.  Good luck Sarah.  I am sure that you will learn alot from Minni and the rest who will contribute on here.  Your shorter pbs suggest that 3.30 is within reach if your training goes well.

    I am guilty of not warming up enough.  Usually a maximum of half a mile, but I do a good few strides within that and always seem to find my first mile too quick.  Always think I will do more to negate injury worries but never do!!

     

  • Sarah has emailed me the schedule she has written and I'm looking through it. Thankfully I have an expert eye and have already spotted potential clashes with training and hangovers.image
  • Sarah- what did you base your schedule on or did someone help you write it?

  • Hilly, sorry to hear about your illness earlier this year, there have been a few odd and persistent viruses circulating this year. It's so difficult to know when to rest and when to continue training as you want to make a full recovery but also don't want to loose all your fitness. I'm glad that you have now made a full recovery.



    Thankyou again to all those that have commented on the warm ups, it's made me feel less naughty for not doing them properly (as I'm not on my own) but will in future schedule them in to a run/race....That and a proper cool down. When I go to a race I think my problem is needing to go to the bathroom to spend a penny and also talking to all those I know....I think I have been putting these first!



    Thanks Minni for the link to that article. Will have a read once I've submitted this.



    Thanks Brolish. The schedule I wrote myself adding in the races that I plan to do and the netball training and matches that I have. I used the programme that my mum wrote for me last year to help. Minni did kindly point out that I have planned a 7 mile run on New Year's Day......As I can't run New Year's Eve, i'm going to have to give it a go, but it might not be my most pleasurable of runs!
  • Just reading through advanced marathoning by P&d, the physiology is.taking me back to my first few years at med school!
  • Very interesting article Minni...I'm convinced and was about to say I need to add some recovery runs in, until I read the last bit about them being less needed if your only running 3-4 times a week like me. Although if I do end up running the day after a hard/difficult run, it's going to be an easier recovery run now rather than than two consecutive hard runs!
  • Yes I know, that got me slightly too.  However, if you're running 4 times a week and you add in a couple of recovery or slow runs then you're up to 6. image  What I liked about the article was the emphasis on the more you do the better you get - practicing improves the communication between the brain and muscles.

     

  • I liked the comparison with the juggler.....it makes far more logical sense when you think of it in that way!
  • That was an interesting article, though the less than 4 runs a week bit got me too...but I remember following Gazelle & Shaggy's thread this year and she was pretty conscientious about recovery runs. I confess I tend to think they are junk miles but she did them, I didn't , she got the time, I, err, didn't, so I will be doing them this time when I can.
  • Just been catching up on the warm-up discussion. I am a big convert and have noticed a clear correlation between my warm up and race performance. My best races definitely come when I jog to the venue and then do some race pace work. It is a problem logistically at larger races though, I had a shocker at Royal Parks last year which I think was in no small part because I missed warming up entirely due to loo queues.

  • Yes good article Minni.  I have to say my improvements came first by increasing my mileage on single runs and then adding in doubles.  Even if I could only run 4-5 times a week I would still try and do a few doubles.

    Thanks Brolish.  We also have been known to run home from a race or run the race course, then the race, then the course again,  Mainly to get a few miles in!image

    Sarah - thanks.  I will be running on NYD too.  In fact we will be doing 2 parkruns, which should be interestingimage

    I'm delaying my run until later today as went out on club social last night and am a bitimage this morning...

  • Mr Puffy, you have just reinforced my decision to add recovery runs into my schedule! image

    Weeble you sound like me with the toilets! Im meeting Minni at the park run tomorrow....I will be doing my first proper warm up....3 miles before doing the park run. I will let everyone know how I get on image

    Good luck on NYD Hilly. How are you managing to fit 2 park runs in, I thought that they would all set of at the same time?

    Im delaying my run too...my OH promised to come with me around derwent (as he doesnt like me going on my own) but he ended up going to the locals with his dad....think im going to wake him at 11, fingers crossed we will ne away by 12!! Hope you recover soon Hilly.

     

     

  • I had to take my car in for a service so I decided to run back - I did remember to warm up first after reading this thread last night image. Terrible weather out there this morning. Hope you get a good run in Sarah.

  • Minni - about to PM you.....
  • My paces; 

     5K       06:40      to 
    06:55 10K      06:55 07:00 Tempo  07:05 07:10 HM       07:16 07:21 Mara    07:45 08:00 Steady 07:55 08:40 Easy    08:50 09:30 Recov   09:35+-

    My schedule for week one;

    Monday; Rest

    Tuesday; 8 mls consisiting of;

                   3 mile w/u starting at the slow end of easy, ending with a steady pace                

                   (9:30 - 7:55) 

     

                   5 x 100m strides

     

                   4 x 1m @ HMP (7:16-7:21) with 60 seconds recovery

     

                   c/d

    wednesday; 3m recovery - slow (9:35 +) 

    Thursday; Rest

    Friday; 15 mile easy pace (8:50-9:30)

    Saturday; Rest

    Sunday; 8 ml easy pace (8:50 - 9:30)

     

     Weekly milage; 34 

  • Thankyou for the warning Vanessa...fingers crossed it will settle down by the time I get out image.

  • just realised that the paces didnt come out as they had looked before I had saved them! image

    I will try again, although I will type them out this time in stead of copying and pasting them!

    5k 6:40 - 6:55

    10k 6:55 - 7:00

    Tempo 7:05-7:10

    HM 7:16-7:21

    Marathon 7:45-8:00

    Steady 7:55 - 8:40

    Easy 8:50-9:30

    recovery 9:35 +

     

  • Poacher - I was recommending Hilly listen to your MT interview since she's aiming for sub 3 and thought she would find it very interesting. In fact I'm recommending everyone listen to it!

    Hilly - which marathon are you doing?  How many miles per week will you be doing?

    Mr Puffy - I never used to do them either thinking they were a waste of time. image But its all about a balanced week and consistency is so important, week after week.   What time did you get last year? 

    Sarah emailed me the schedule she had written for herself, which looked fine.  She had quite a lot of cross training in it and was initially running 3 times a week but stepping it up to 4 later on.  The build up of long runs was fine but a 9 mile race 3 weeks from marathon day is meaning either a 4 or 2 week taper.  Just now she's opting for 2 week and we'll see nearer the time. 

    She has marked day for speed training but wasn't sure what to do here.  In the past she hasn't really given it much thought and has just run fast miles so I've sent her a range of paces that I used when I was at a similar speed to what she is now (as above) and that gives her a guide of what's what and something to work with. 

     

  • sarah tinsel toes osborne wrote (see)

    Im delaying my run too...my OH promised to come with me around derwent (as he doesnt like me going on my own)

    I guess you haven't been married that long? image  My husband just kicks me out the door. image

     

  • Good afternoon minni....haha, we've been married just over two years...it won't be long before he cracks under my nagging I'm sure!



    I'm so grateful to minni who has spent alot of her time tweaking my schedule, emailing me tips, advice and explanations on different types of runs and kindly sending me her own paces and schedules.Thankyou minni.



    Was just wondering if you would recommend doing a bit if cross training either on the bike or swimming after the recovery run on Wednesday or whether this would be defeating the object of a recovery run?



    Wondering what everyone else does before a marathon.....2 or 3 week taper?



    My OH decided that he didnt want to go to derwent to run (think he was worried that I would make him run to many miles) so we went round his old xc course. In the end I think it was much tougher than the flat derwent course that we would have gone on, starting and finishing on the steepest hill I've ever run on. We ended up running only 4.5 miles at an average of 9.34 min/mls, quite slow but it was hilly and muddy and should help keep my legs refreshed for the park run in the morning!
  • Good luck with the park run tomorrow ladies.

    Sarah- I normally do a 3 week taper but the third week is only slightly reduced in terms of mileage.

    My last mara was a completely different story. I was supposed to run in NY so tapered accordingly only to find out it was cancelled. I then booked another mara three weeks later and went back to full on training for about a week and a half and tapered again for 10 days. It was awful for my confidence but in the end I got the time I wanted so it can't have affected me too much in terms of fitness.

    I hate tapering by the way, it messes with my head!image
  • Hi all, good stuff on here. Looks like minni has put a lot of thought into your schedule Sarah.

    I hate tapering as well but I actually ran my PB without tapering a week after running a PB for 20 miles. I had no idea what I was doing back then - ran most of my runs too fast but had some very good results. The problem was that I found it hard to motivate myself afterwards. I'd basically trained too hard - I think I may have had a faster marathon in there somewhere but probably left it on the road on the 20 miler. I'm planning a 3 week taper for my spring marathon but may drop to 2!!

    Brolish - that's brilliant to pick yourself up after the disappointment of NY. I guess the body just needs some kind of taper to consolidate the training in the weeks prior to the marathon. The fact that you had trained and tapered properly for NY was probably the key and it didn't matter too much what you did in the next three weeks as long as you didn't do so little that you started to lose fitness?

    As for me, I bit the dirt rather hard yesterday at the end of steady 10 miler. Tripped at speed and face took most of the force as I hit the ground. Other than a few grazes here and there I seem to have got away quite lightly. I would love to have seen it - must have been quite funny!

  • Minni I ran 3:39 this year after 3:33 last year. Looking at Sarah's paces I'm probably a little off where I need to be, but I hope to be back to normal soon after an autumn of colds. My first race is a local half marathon on20th jan, same day as your Brass Monkey Sarah.



    Then I've another half in Feb, I usually use that one to work out what my time is likely to be in April.
  • Sarah - we have managed to find 2 in Southampton, one starting at 9am and the other at 10am so we should be able to get to both in that timeimage

    Which parkrun are you doing?  9:34 pace is fine, mine the other day was 9:38!image

    Minni - I have a championship place at London.  I hope to get up to 80-100 miles for a large part of the training.  I'm giving myself a longer build-up this time round due to losing fitness from illness/injury.  The last few weeks I've been around 50 and this week will be around 80.  I do not concentrate on sessions at this stage, but will do strides once a week and this week did include a 5 miles at around 7:21 pace in the middle of 15 and did a parkrun in just over 20 minutes.  This is not stressful for me though as both are hard, but controlled efforts.

  • I tend to do a 2 week taper, but I think it depends on the individual and you really have to find what works for you!  I've tried 4 weeks, 3 weeks and 2 weeks and no taper and run best on a gradual 2 week taper where I cut the distance, but keep the intensity up.

    Sarah - does your club take part in a cross country league?

  • Re. tapers, we ended up getting lost on the final run before our marathon this year, doing 18 instead of the planned 12!  Then we both ran stormers 7 days later.

    My best marathons came off a depletion approach which worked thus:-

    Pre-race week

    Tuesday - 60 mins with 10 x 100m strides at the end - protein and fats the rest of the day
    Wednesday - 75 mins with 10 x 100m strides - same diet as above
    Thursday - 60 mins with 10 x 100m strides - carbo-load.

    Friday - 30 mins
    Sat - 20 mins.

    Funnily enough running an 8 / 10 / 8 sequence brought me my best results?!

  • really good discussion on warm up routines  image Always did wonder what a good warm up was and clearly a few stretches just does not qualify.

     

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