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Turning the clock back
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That's OK. Mine was a bit off topic too - I hadn't intended this to be just an "old codgers reminisce" thread, but I couldn't resist telling that story. I will post something possibly a bit more on-topic in due course.
Going to take me a while to read though as all the posts are so long and interesting!
Your film part sounded great fun. Not many on here can make that claim to fame I'm sure.
Minks, I'm sure it'll all work out.
:-)
Thanks for that info. $99? Got to be kidding!
So much I could write there but I guess you can read my mind.
Decide what's really important to you and trust your instincts. You do seem torn at the moment. FWIW I think you can have it all if you're patient. But that's fine coming from Mr Impatient here:-)
So here I am, its March 2005, I’m sitting on top of the world, having just spent three months banging out pbs like an Ethiopian. Now I’m sitting here planning how I’m going to annihilate my 10k time. All it takes is the sensible application of speed work and that’s another item to tick of the “to do” list. Trouble is, I’ve got this ache in my hamstring, and this fast running is making it worse. Just when you think you’ve got it……..
My mentor has a view about injury. He’s always argued that the risk of injury is the price that you have to pay to train hard and run fast. I thought I agreed with this until I ended up with ten weeks of none running due to what I was told was piriformis syndrome – at least it wasn’t any old sort of injury, I had a syndrome!
Injury as an abstract concept is fine, but when it’s a pain that won’t go away and after ten weeks of non running when your fitness is sliding down the pan, I’m not so sure whether or not it’s a price worth paying. Most runners suffer injury, it’s the price.…..etc, etc. Most injuries tend to be old friends and can be managed or held at bay with a bit of remedial action. The ones that cause the most annoyance are those that defy diagnosis. This was one such, and in time honoured fashion, I ignored it and carried on regardless.
One thing, I’d never thought about, and something my alter ego had no knowledge of, was how quickly my old body would turn to mush, if I stopped training. I now know that ten weeks is about all it takes. The layoff was pointless since as soon as I started running the pain came back. So I told myself that it wasn’t an injury, it was a condition and that it could be managed. I comforted myself with the knowledge that even though it constantly ached, it wouldn’t stop me running. OK, I couldn’t do the speed work, but I could up the mileage, which I duly did. At the back of my mind, I new it wasn’t going that well, but rather than quantify my shortcomings I chose to train purely on feel, not realizing that the injury itself was causing me to run more slowly.
Viewed dispassionately, the outcome was no real surprise, but nevertheless it gave me a fair old jolt. When I look at it now, having got over the disappointment, I just can’t believe how I could have got it all so badly wrong. It’s as if all the lessons I’d learnt in the last couple of years had been completely forgotten, and that I’d totally reverted to the impetuousity of my youth. The truth of course is that I’ve never really been that far away from that younger version of me and I’ve always run this fine line between soaring success and falling over failure. So here I am now, with an injury which I have got to get fixed together with a few tweaks to the training program, then its Abingdon here I come!
I don’t think I’m going to see my alter ego again. He probably thinks that I’ve grown to old and wise for him. That’s a shame really, because despite the problems of the past year, I still couldn’t have done it without him. Although having said that, I did have a visit the other day from a strange, grey haired old man, whose face looked vaguely familiar, who said that he wanted discuss my FLM 2009 time with me.
Here's a target for you and your grey-haired chum for FLM 2009: 2:38:15 (current V60 world record held by Luciano Aquarone). ;-)
What is the latest with the injury?
It's always easy to be wise with hindsight, but we would never learn anything about ourselves if we didn't make mistakes. Learning from those mistakes and refusing to repeat them is how we move forward. For what it's worth, once you have had appropriate treatment and got past this injury, if you can practise what you preach and really take on board what you've learned, you could be heading towards future halcyon days. But you will need to train smart and accept that your 58-year-old self will have different training capabilities and physical limitations from your 20-year-old self. Listen to and respect your body, and you may yet surprise yourself. Good luck with that marathon goal.
BR, I know you identify. I too am impatient for success and want instant results. But I try to remember that everything comes to he who waits ...
(How long do I have to wait??)
The injury is basically on overtight piriformis irritating the sciatic nerve. I have been going to a local physical therapist, who believed that he can massage the problem away. I've known for several months that wasn't the case, but as you can see from previous postings I've been in virtual denial about it. My wife took a photo of me at the end of Bath this year, and the injured leg is almost collapsed under me, I'd never realised how bad I'd let it become. As part of my post Bath appraisal, getting this sorted has become my number one priority. After a five week wait I had an appointment with a guy how works with UK athletics and Loughborough Univ (Mark Buckingham). His diagnosis is that the tight piriformis (as well as tight abductor, tight quad, tight hamstring and tight ITB) is caused by a pelvic misallignment due to a colapsed sacroilliac joint. The good news is that the sacroilliac can be realligned by manipulation, which he duly did. The pain was indescribable. However he's happy its done the trick, he's given me a set of exercises to do, and says the discomfort (what a quaint phrase!) should ease in the next few days. As there's nothing actually damaged, he says it's OK to carry on running on it. He suggested that the tightness of fibres arround the joint may start to pull it up again (hence the exercises). However he's given me another appointment in four weeks, when should it be required, he will be delighted to repeat the process.
So, quitely optimistic, and should have a better idea in about a week.
I trust that the older, wiser Tom will be dilligent in carrying out the exercises....
Minks/Tom - although Rotorua was our first marathon for both my husband and I in 1978 - our experiences were both tough but very different. My husband wrote his story for a NZ Running magazine - "Tales of a tail-ender". He, never a natural runner had gone through hell and back even to get to the start-line, had even taken a dip in the lake, had his mate run back down one of the big hills to find out what had happened to him, but he finished and really understands what this running lark is all about. We do have separate interests - he loves everything to do with motor-sport but he still likes to keep fit for his new sport - orienteering. Yes, he'd love to be able to run but it just hasn't ever been easy for him.
But if you don't mind I will!
In regard to injury. I have to say I've heard (and read) the words 'take it easy'' until, quite frankly, I could puke! Words from those that have been there I respect, but those that have not, have no idea what it feels like to not be able to run. But having said that there's a fine line isn't there? And the only one that can walk that line is yourself.
Only we know our bodies and also the level of discomfort we are prepared to put up with. Some, in fact many, say there should be no level of discomfort. I don't know many runners (who are honest) that run completely pain free all the time. I'm still learning away, even at 41! I wear my heart on my sleeve and I like it that way as it feels honest. But it does leave one open for a good slating!
Partners and running?
Well that struck another chord! I started running. Well actually I started twice, but gave up the first time as tried to run too fast. Anyway I got lonely. I had entered this half marathon you see and had to start doing these ''long'' runs. I was chatting (I do like a good natter) to the peeps in my local running shop and they said, why not join a club? Join a club!!!! You must be joking!! Clubs are for fast peeps and I was only a 9 min miler at absolute best at that time and that was a bit of a guess! Anyway, they convinced me, so I joined. All this time Mr Scoobs did not ''do'' running. The club I joined was VERY friendly and I soon settled in and got to have some company on a Sunday run. I realised Mr Scoobs would really love it and so encouraged him to join. After a month of ''nagging'', he did! So he now runs too. We were of a similar pace (until I got stuffed by my achilles). We do run together, but not all the time. I run with my girlie friends sometimes and sometimes I like to run alone.
I have to say that I am his motivator and he openly admits that this is the case. But I'm glad he runs. He really enjoys it too. I get a real kick out of seeing him do well. Being the motivator can be tiring though and sometimes I do wish he would come up with the ideas! But hey we can't have it all, and I am very lucky to have him.
But if you ask who is the driven one, then hands up, it has to be me. Mr Scoobs is way more relaxed about the whole thing than I am. I've come to realise that running and exercise are addictive - DOH!! If I don't exercise I'm not in anywhere near such a good mood! Today is the perfect example. No exercise today and Scoobs is already planning a stonker workout tomorrow after work to make up for it! But at the end of the day I am who I am and I like the fact that I throw myself into things. I think life would be dull otherwise.
Thoughts? What are the benefits of being driven? And what are the consequences and/or drawbacks? What are you experiences? Is it better to be more laid back perhaps? Or maybe a balance would be ideal? Of course the variation of what may be called driven from one preson to another will vary enormously. How driven are you? How far are you prepared to push it now?
BTW, I took up cycling during injury. Now Mr Scoobs cycles as well! :0)
Tom....that was an awesome post...great read...will keep popping in...
d
I can't help you with injury. I think if a runner over-does it they either get injured or sick. I usually get sick. I love to run because it usually feels easy - don't think I could have run for so long if it was hard and I got injured all the time I just wish I could run faster!
All I know is that I'm a better person if I run - even if just going out for a half an hour jog. In fact my husband - pushes me out the door - I'm easier to live with if if I'd had my fix.
I think the trick is to always under-do - come back feeling you could have run further or faster.
I sometimes tell myself I'm going to do this or that but usually settle for less. The one exception is if I'm trying to get a long run in for a marathon, I try not to cut that short but even in the best of worlds that can be wrong too. I remember 1998 - 20 years after my first Rotorua hanging in for a really hard 23 mile training run. I got to half-way in the marathon and knew my family was waiting to cheer me on at the 30k mark. I looked out for them and quietly crossed the road for a dnf. Sometimes going that little bit further in training, that little bit faster can be your un-doing.
After my shower, a little lie down and something to eat, my husband said "we're going back to see the tail-enders com in". It was awesome - the real runners keeping on keeping on. Rotorua has a survivors section you have to have run 15 Rotoruas to be in it. I am not.
It's struck me reading the thread just how much running means to me and how training was priority when I was 17-21 ish.
My day was sleep, train, college,train, social life, sleep.
Multiply that by 7, then by 50 and you can see how my running took over.
I lived athletics/running and was quite brutal about anything that stopped me from training.
I did it because it took me out of the 'ordinary pack'.
I was at my sons pre-secondary school night 2 years ago, when I recognised a former teacher's name, so I went over and spoke to him.
When I mentioned my name and the school he replied "You were the runner weren't you?
Now the school my son was going to was different from mine and the time since I'd last seen this teacher was about 21 years, so I must have done something right back then!
I'm realising how much I still enjoy this sport of ours and my Athletics Weekly/Running mag collection from the 1980s might soon get another visit in the attic.
I think that there are several things that can be done to arrest the decline. We do slow up and get stiffer as we get older, but does it have to be so?
Studies have shown that it is not cadence that deteriorates as we get older but stride length. The optimal stride rate per minute is 180-190 foot strikes. Lose 5cm off each stride and at 180 steps that is 9 metres lost. Running at 6 min per mile effort the individual will be 54 metres short of a mile. That 6 min mile then becomes a 6.10. It adds a minute on your 10K time, 2 mins on ½ m and 4 mins on a marathon.
You are still running the same effort, but it is taking longer because of the shorter stride length due to increased stiffness and loss of muscle flexability.
How many times have you gone to races and noticed veteran runners with their heads jutting forward like tortoises, their backsides sticking out and a suggestion of a beer gut. When they run they sink into their hips and grind along, not being able to raise the pace because of their awful posture.
This has developed from years of continual running and no effort made to correct deficiencies and gain a balanced body. Stretching will only go so far, but what is the point of stretching the muscle and within one stride misusing it again?
I had fallen into this trap. I fell into a routine of more miles is better whilst training for the Nagano marathon. I also followed a schedule in Runner’s World for 2 second stretches repeated many times. The routine did not work for me and I lost a lot of flexability. This was brought home to me when I booked up some deep tissue massages in the run up to the marathon. When the masseur tested my hamstring flexability with me lying on my back he could only raise my leg to about 45 degrees instead of about 90. I had noticed running past shop windows that my posture had become abysmal, and sometimes I just looked like a tired old man running along! I was becoming very stiff in the hips and gluteus medius muscles. I thought the stiffness was lack of strength so tried to strengthen the muscles. This did not help.
A long flight, cold weather and a body with poor flexability equals a poor marathon.
Peter Coe wrote in “Training Distance Runners” that a training week is made up of, for example, 20 modules. Not all these are running, they included stretching, weight work, meals etc.
Those of us in sedentary jobs can improve our work environments. When I worked for Kuwait Petroleum I visited our Danish affiliate. I found that they did not have uniform work stations in the office. The furniture matched but the desks were all at different heights i.e. adjusted for each individual. They also had sensible chairs with no arms. None of these silly executive chairs pandering to an individual’s ego!
Think how much time you spend sitting each day, and how stiff you can get by the end of the day through poor sitting posture. If you train in the evening these tight locked muscles are taken with you, and it leads to a poor run and injury e.g. sciatica.
A decent chair, the computer in the right place, and right height can go a long way to improving your running. It also improves the rest of your life.
Posture is so important for running and everything we do. I have mentioned this before on another thread but it is something I firmly believe. A child has wonderful posture, what goes wrong as we get older? Bad habits, then our mind accepts the bad habits as normal. It is a viscous circle.
One spirals downwards, how many of us are aware of individual muscles in our bodies when we move. Most people just move and do not think about it, continually making the same mistakes.
Alexander Technique, Pilates, Yoga and Fledenkrais method all balance out the body. One thing they concentrate on is the head, neck and back relationship.
When I was still in the UK I used to have regular deep tissue massage, and Sandra used to spend about 45 mins of an hour session working on my neck, back and shoulders. It was agony. She then breezed round the legs. I always thought this was a bit strange but 2 days later I noticed a freedom in my running. I have since had other therapists who spend less time on the back, neck etc and concentrate on the legs and I have never felt as good as I did with dear old Sandra.
Freedom in the back and neck with a correctly positioned head will go a long way to regaining those 5cm’s lost. If you lie on the ground and try and lift your head you will realise how heavy it is. If you run with your head down or jutting forward think how your body has to compensate for this. Try it on your next run, drop the head then lift it and see what happens to your stride length and the muscles in your back, hips etc.
I have found Flendenkrais to be very good. I have not had a lesson, but just worked from a book and made surprising progress. I felt I needed to do something different since Nagano because stiffness and pain were not making running fun. Today I went for a run and felt like I was running for the first time in a long time. I felt movement in my hips and shoulders.
Also when I walk down the street I can feel freedom in my hips. It feels like I am extravagantly wiggling my posterior, but it is probably just moving normally and is not fixed and locked. This is an example of the correct movement feeling wrong because of being locked into an incorrect movement and bad habit.
The book I work from is Running with the whole body – Jack Heggie. You can easily get it off Amazon. I also have Awareness Heals – Steven Shafarman.
They are very good because they encourage you to explore simple movements, but don’t tell you what is right or wrong but let you find out for yourself i.e. increase your awareness.
You will know what is right. The awareness allows you to make corrections as your run and in every other activity you undertake. To summarise:
For older runners attention and correct use is mandatory. We can’t get away with what we did in our 20’s.
Correct movement equals no stiffness.
Don’t lose focus and just concentrate on the miles
Running only makes up a small part of our day, but do it wrong and it can impinge on the rest of our life. Work at doing it correctly it will enhance our lives, and we will continue to dumbfound the experts who say that we should not be doing as well as we are.
Another long post. I am getting carried way, and I have not touched on strength training or other aspects of running form.
Karl, as I was reading your post I immediately became aware of the fact that I was sitting at my desk, perched on the edge of my chair and slumping my shoulders forward. I often sit like this. It's because I don't then have to pull my chair in, fiddle around getting my keyboard the optimum distance from the monitor on my desk, and concentrate on the way I'm sitting.
When I thought about the amount of strain this is probably placing on my shoulders and back, I readjusted everything so that I'm now sitting 'properly'. It feels very uncomfortable - an example of something 'correct' feeling unnatural as you describe.
Scoobs, like you I guess I'm the 'motivator' in our relationship. Part of the problem is that Mr. Minks doesn't really have any interests of his own, and has admitted on previous occasions that he envies me for getting off my backside and finding something I really love. It hasn't always been this way - when we first met, he was a recent ex-rower and a dedicated "gym bunny" whereas I was an unfit couch potato - not overweight, but desperately untoned and unfit. We met at work so I joined the work gym with Mr. Minks. My motivation was that being so fit himself, he might quickly lose interest in a lazy, unfit partner! Also, as we didn't live together, it was a way to spend time with him doing a common interest.
Eventually, we moved in together and both changed jobs. We joined a small local gym as neither of us had work facilities at this point. The gym was lousy - insufficient equipment, disinterested staff and people who hogged equipment for hours on end so no-one else could use it. I found going to the gym a stressful experience - my heart would sink when I walked in and found both the treadmills occupied and people obviously waiting. I'd discovered that the treadmill was the thing I enjoyed using most, and as the gym was located in a recreation ground, one day I decided to take my running outside rather than wait for the treadmill to be free. The rest is history - I discovered I loved running, and very soon I started to run regularly rather than once or twice a week, and began to enter races.
Mr. Minks soon stopped using the gym for the same reasons as me, but he has never really picked it up again. He used to run as a rower, as part of his training, and I think that's the problem - he's only ever seen running as a means to being fit for another sport, not as a sport in its own right. Plus he just doesn't really enjoy it. From time to time, he's announced that he'll start coming running with me, but the initial burst of enthusiasm rarely lasts longer than a week. A brand-new gym has recently opened at his work, and he went along three times in the first week, then a couple of times the next week, and I began to wonder if he would get back into it, but then we had a week off and broke the continuity, and he hasn't been since.
I try to encourage him to find something he'll enjoy but I don't want to be the pushy wife - and anyway I think the impetus has to come from the individual. It's like quitting smoking - the person has to really want to do it. Since we bought our house getting on for two years ago, he's become quite keen on gardening (which doesn't "do it" for me at all!) so I guess he does have an interest, just not a regular physical one. He hasn't got lardy or overweight and can still whip my ar*e over a short-distance run! Maybe I shouldn't worry about it - and perhaps it's me that has the "problem" thinking he should be doing something when in reality he's quite happy not to be!
Excellent post! This is what I have found too. Last year I bought a kneeling stool so I don't slump in front of the computer screen.
Re stretching, I have found that stretching the hamstrings also relies on back flexibility. If your back muscles are tight, you simply won't get proper mobility in the hamstrings. Same goes for hips and hip flexors. You can have strong glutes, but if they don't "kick in" when you are running, you'll probably be running badly and overusing other muscles instead.
I have found that maintaining running form, strength and flexibility is the component most often overlooked in training schedules. Too much training is geared around mileage and heart rates. For older runners, particularly aerobically gifted older runners, it's far more important to gear training around (re)building and maintaining running form.
I’m sure it comes as no surprise when I admit that whilst I’m appreciative of the symptoms that you describe, I’ve done absolutely nothing to counteract them. Certainly my experience of the past year has made me more aware of the issues that you raise Karl.
I have recently been reading a book called “The Cutting Edge Runner” by Matt Fitzgerald. He’s a great believer in stretching, strengthening and cross training, irrespective of age. He also writes authoritively on running style, the importance of recovery and periodisation. My current thinking is when (if?) I can get my piroformis/sacroiliac problems cleared, it would more productive for me to use some of my second daily sessions on strength and flexibility. Although I don’t think my running style is as bad as some of the aged vets you describe, However I do have a naturally short stride, which can only be exacerbated by my age and recent injury problems.
I read and responded to a very interesting post you put up on the hard training thread. The point I made was that with things like pilates and yoga the main problem is mastering the basic techniques of the discipline before you can actually get any benefits from the exercises. That I suspect is more a criticism of me than it is of the disciplines itself
Alexander Technique. You cannot learn it from a book, you have to have lessons and get a good teacher. The difficulty for the teacher is how can you give the student freedom of movement, when they are unsure what is right or wrong.
It is difficult to master and can be frustrating. After you have had lessons a book helps but there are many on the market of varying quality.
Pilates - I also think you need to have lessons. I have not and even though I have benefited from it, maybe I am not doing it quite right and only getting about 75% of the benefits.
Yoga - I believe you can make good progress with Yoga from a book. The one I have is very good and is geared to runners. I went to a class after I had been working from the book, and the teacher did not have to correct me in the poses I had been doing. Some really are very simple.
With Pilates and Yoga you would have to be careful with your back, sciatica and muscle problems and going to a class would be advisable.
Feldenkrais - This is very different. There is zero skill factor, and it is not a form of exercising. It is exploring how your muscles interact whilst performing very small simple movements.
Even though I have known about it I have only recently started doing it, and I have been astonished at the progress I have made. like you I am not the most gifted when it comes to coordinated movement.
In some ways it is what I have been looking for because a series of movements are broken down to concentrate on the feelings in individual muscles. If you feel tight in one and not in another then the movements help correct this.
After working on yourself for a while you have to get up and walk around. It feels so good.
It is amazing how some small simple movements increase your awareness and make you feel so much better.
Almost felt like I should go back to bed.
Yes, my body is as weak as sh*t, couldn't even to 1 proper push up, not very flexible, but I did learn to run tall, does that count.
Yes, I'm sure if I did try all the things you advocate I certainly would look better, but I find it hard enough to motivate myself to get out the door to do a run once a day. I'm sure if I tried one of the sessions you are advocating - my running would be ditched.
I look to the results of Derek Turnbull from Invercarill NZ who holds all the World age records from the mile to the marathon set in 1992 - I'm sure he never knew about all these other things he was supposed to do. These are his times:
mile - 4.56.4 29.2.92
3000m - 9.47.4 8.2.92
5000m - 16.38.8 15.3.92
10000m - 34.42.2 15.3.92
Marathon - 2.41.57 12.4.92 London
Think he was on a bit of a roll. If you haven't seen the movie "The fastest Indian" featuring Anthony Hopkins - you show get it out. It's not about running but about a crazy old guy wanting to know how fast he could go. This old guy from Invercargill just didn't know that anything was not possible - he reminds me a bit of old Derek!