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Selbs - Blimey, your a low beater. I'm about 167 at mara pace and at 120 I wouldn't be moving much.
Variation to Joolskas 20miler (and slightly easier) is:
5x(2m easy / 2m @ mp), + cool-down.
My progressive 20milers are very similar to Selbs:-
5M @ 65-70% HRmax
10M @ 70-75% HRmax
5M @ 80-85% HRmax
Or 5 @ 125ish, 10 @ 140ish, 5 @ 155ish
JH1.... "Selbs - Blimey, your a low beater."
not sure how to take that.
Some good stuff going on on here, especially the Ultra and Mara runners in windy conditions.
Had my first bad day at the office for this VLM campaign on Sunday. Planned on 20 with 10 @ MP. Combination of a late night/early start and a chinese takeaway did for me I think. 2 miles into the MP effort it became a battle to get to the nearest public loo and when the first one I got to was vandalised and locked up the day got worse; found one eventually. Anyway tried to press on with MP effort and due to head wind and heart (and stomach) not really being in it anymore I settled for 'as quick as I could go on the day'. Ended up with an ave pace of 6.58m/m for the 20 so not too bad and hopefully a decent traing effect; not the day I'd planned for though.
Danish: as others have said, progressive is a good idea; gets you used to running at pace on tired legs. I usually try to drop the pace for the last mile though. I sometimes do my midweek 13/14/15 progressively as well unless I've had a really hard session on the Tuesday.
For tonights 16miler I might actually wear the hr strap with the garmin to get some idea of what is normal at between 7-8mm pace. Max is 213bpm but don't know if this has any bearing on what marathon hr should be.
Jools -hows the training coming along now?
AtD - i believe losing a bit of enthusiasm around 2 hours/18 miles is perfectly normal (for most mere mortals) don't worry - and no it doesn't get better with age! my guess is you would be a 170-175 avg HR for a marathon man then - but everyone does seem to vary.
Tough one there MrB. but still a fine and pacey 20 miler really. i find picking up to MP often brings along tummy issues myself and need to make sure i work out how to not let that scupper my big day.
MG15 - that does soud like a low max HR!
MG15 - when I have been tested I keep peaking at 176 but at the end of a good race I will often see 182-185. Seems in the real world there is a little more to give so don't be surprised if you get a plus 170 in a race. How old are you ?
I prefer progressive, with maybe the last 10 at MP, or mara effort earlier in the campaign.
Glad to see much lees wind around for tonights track.
Ha! I watched CJ do the same thing, after he ran most of the first lap at his easy pace and my 10M pace, JAP.
AtD: still on low miles (30M last week rather than my planned 40M), because right ITB/knee isn't quite right (ho, ho) and I'd rather take a further week on low miles to let it heal a bit more than push on mileage-wise. It felt a lot better last night, even after a 6.20m/m last 800m was required to chick the guys I was training with. I don't think they'll be so quick to request that we wind the pace up at the end next time
1) 18-22 miles steady run @ 90-95% of MP
2) 24-26 miles easy run @ 80-85% of MP
3) 18-22 miles progression run @ 85-100% of MP
4) 12-15 miles simulation run @ 100% of MP
5) 20 miles - last 5-10 miles @ 100% of MP
6) 20 miles incorporating 10 x 800 @ 103% of MP w 800 jog
7) 6-7 miles @ 85% + 6-7 miles @ 100% of MP (workout done AM and PM)
Mr B- It's the bad runs that count double IMHO so I would take that.
On a similar vein Wardi- Tope effort on getting a good session when thing s not to plan.
Some great runs elsewhere also.
Coro- Hope things improve and you can move forward shortly.
I think I've been guilty in the past of plodding most of my runs which get's you so far. I think I'll try and incorporate some of the above this time round.
Sunday was ok. 20m with Dan and then concentrate and keep the effort going for 2.58. HR was not far off a full on effort by the end but pleased none the less. I don't think sub 3 will ever be "comfortable" like some of the quicker runners on here. Gutted I missed everyone at the end.
Legs ok now and back to it.
most of those always just look toooo hard to me mmmarmite.
Mr Boat.. 20m the day after a chinese takeaway is just prawn crackers. Congrats on doing what it says on the tin foil though!
Cheers Ode, good to hear that your legs are ok after that top effort.
Nice chicking Jools!
MG.. HR max of 167?? As a 54 year old coffin dodger I can muster 172 after a few long reps. I reckon you must already be in possession of a pass for free bus travel.
Two runs today, 4.2m + 7m. Very wet & grey up here.
Going out shortly for a 13m which won't be quick after last nights track session as legs are groaning. Only 12h between sessions.
Reports of a 400 m runner taking part on Sunday have proved true.
Evidence shows rumours to be true!
MrB – well toughed out. Difficult thing about those PnD sessions are the tough days don’t always coincide with the days that you feel tough.
JH1 - try doing 55% of your weekly miles within 27hrs !
Did the 3 easy, 6 harder, 1 easy that I did a couple of weeks ago this morning. Made the massive improvement of 7 seconds quicker over the 6M section, so 6:29 av. The first 2M are indeed hillier and harder which makes the last 4M more like 6:20s, which seem like incredibly fast running. But I guess that’s cos I spend the rest of the week at 8mm.
I think I’m a long way off being able to do some of those progressive long runs. But no big deal its early days, and I dont want to be seeing any peaks for ages.
Danish I tend to agree with marmite about being careful about going too full-on in 20 mile races and leaving your marathon on the 20 mile course. I've done that myself a couple of times. You might be younger and better at recovery though.
Some good racing going on. Not tempted to stay with marigold a bit longer then JAP?
Managed 10k @MP yesterday, at considerably more than marathon effort. OTOH the VLM course tends to be clear of muddy tracks, dog walkers with those extending leads and other hazards of running through the common at lunchtime.
Cheers for all the replies in relation to how I should approach my 20 milers. I'll certainly be trying some of those in my upcoming races.
CD - I'm 42 and recovery is not my strong point so I think I'll run the Essex 20 at a little below PMP say 7mm pace (which looks a bit like #1 on mmmarmite's list) which hopefully wont feel flat out!
Once again thanks for all the help guys in the couple of weeks Ive been on here I've learnt a lot
Last night was 4 miles w/u then 8x400m uphill at c5:30 pace. 9.5 miles in total and felt good.
Also I wore the hrm last night to see what sort of numbers it would throw out and for 18.86miles (sscond half with club) at 7:42mm ave pace it said the average was 150bpm, felt strong the whole time aswell
TR: ''tough days don’t always coincide with the days that you feel tough''. Like it; I think I'll save that one for another day. Good session there and showing some sub 2:50 pace; it could be your year. When you say it's too early for a progressive longish run; how about 15 with 7.30m/m; 7.15m/m and the last 5 at below 7.00m/m dependent on how you're feeling. That kind of session sounds doable if you're banging out 6mi at that pace.
Sneaked out and caught the 08:20 ferry to do 15.3 over the Purbecks this morning. Good run and felt fairly fresh. Managed to ave 7.13m/m which isn't bad for over there, especially on a school day.
Top work MrB. Every time I see Joe Jordan looking over Arry’s shoulder it reminds me of you !
I’m not going to chase any progressives yet, and I'm not doing long runs on the flat yet to make sure I dont. I’m creaking at the seams trying to run a slow ~60mpw, and juggle the bike and swim. I havnt got anymore beans to give at the mo. I’m going to consolidate what I’m doing for a couple of weeks and then adjust accordingly.
Good run there Mr B, nice over the Purbecks.
TR - you are banging it out early this year and I have confidence you are going to get some better numbers at VLM this year if you keep it up.
On my run this morning went past some guy running with headphones and about 200m later I heard some jingling of something and the geezer was right on my shoulder and proceeded to overtake. I carried on at normal pace then a min later he was spent and I went on by. What the feck is up with some people. 13m @7:18 and my legs didn't like it.
Mr Boat>Sneaked out and caught the 08:20 ferry
Is that where your thread name comes from then! Sounds like a highly satisfactory morning all round.
Well done Dan and Ode on the non-raced marathons. Ode, who was the 400m runner then? I didn't recognise him (apologies if it's someone here).
Marigold -- a bit late but that was quite something in your 50k.
And pats on the back all round for excellent marathon training.
So I managed to do my back in about 10 days ago the day before I was supposed to run my first race in ages. The muscle spasms I'm familiar with subsided but I was left with new troubling sensations around my hips and butt that were more worrying from a running point of view, which I reckoned might be sacroiliac joint issues from reading up. Anyway, I've been doing a load of exercises for that which seem to have helped. Upshot is that I ran 3.5M OK before work yesterday (but back seized up a bit after cycling in), and ran 3.2M OK to work today (but back seized up a bit sitting in a meeting). So at least I'm running again, and while the back muscles are on a bit of a hair trigger, from past experience they should get less twitchy fairly quickly. I'm writhing on a tennis ball at least once an hour in the office...