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Moraghan Training - Stevie G
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77.07 versus 77.14 so pretty similar.
The 77.14% comparative times are interesting though, after our debate the other day about some results being softer than others etc.
On 77.14% at 31, the equivalent WAVA results are
5k 16.55 (actual pb 16.53)
5m 27.41 (actual pb 27.44)
10k 34.39 (actual pb 34.30)
10m 57.02 (actual pb 57.09)
At 77.07% at 40, the equivalents are
5k 17.47 (not particularly in 5k shape but best 17.55 so far)
5m 28.53 (28.35 last Oct - 77.86%)
10k 35.58 (couple of "excuse" races, but best 36.53 so far)
10m 58.53 (none)
I assume it's all skewed against number of participants and there's an expected drop off at shorter stuff quicker than longer? Something along those lines, but was just (borderline) interesting to see that the pbs are actually pretty tightly in line on WAVA if not on the classic time comparison ones.
Probably one for your area of expertise this one PMJ
Would need 17:08 for 5k for 80% or wait until Mid July and do 17:16
For a start, there is no running science at all behind WAVA gradings. There is some data collection and then some grouping by sex and age and then a curve fitting. As SG says, in areas where there is enough data then the world best is pretty reliable but if there is not a lot then you can get odd things so e.g. Betty brought the "world record" down from 1.5 hours to an hour!
On Feb. 26. a 97-year old athlete was astounded as she reached the finish line at the Atlanta Peachtree Marathon Weekend 5K, to find out she set an age-group world record. Atlanta-resident Betty Lindberg broke the previous 95+ 5K world record by 30 minutes, clocking a time of 55:48.
You can, however, read a few things in, so e.g. for 5k, the open standard stops at 27 years old but for the half marathon it stays until you are 31. At 40, the handicaps are 94.5% and 97.25% respectively, so you can see that the 5k curve is dropping relatively quickly. When you get that sort of situation then it can be to the advantage or disadvantage of individuals. We are all an experiment of one so some may decline a bit ahead of the curve and others behind the curve. The world best will obviously be from those who decline more slowly so we would naturally expect the majority to be worse.
So, I'd expect it to be harder to get the same WAVA at the shorter distances because it is highlighting the oddties rather than reflecting the bulk.
Although my figures above show 77.07 at hm but 77.86 at the 5miler. And 77.07 for 5k is 17.47 which has to be a fair chunk easier than a sub 78 half?
That seems to suggest it's easier to get the a higher age grading for shorter?
As an example, the 5k world record for men is about 12.5 minutes and for women about 14 minutes so follows that rough 10% slower rule.
If a 55-year-old male wants 70% WAVA over 5k it is 21:57, but for women 25:32 so that gap has grown to 16%. 7 of the 10 top WAVA runs at Wycombe are female. All of the top 3, all above 90%, are female.
It is due to lack of data and that may well correct itself over the years but parkrun could do better sooner.
Our chairman was getting giddy about a sky high WAVA one lady seemed to have logged at Wokey, before realising the she had dropped out, and didn't realise the chips have quite some range, picking her up when walking past the finish
But the peak was a former RW forumite called Ceal who I remember at one of the Hyde Park 5ks being announced as the current holder of the series highest WAVA...at something like 99.5%
Yeah that didn't get beaten that day...
Taking my scores as examples I always have, and continue to, clock much better WAVA's at the shorter distances and get progressively worse the longer it goes. I have a best of 86% at 5k and over 84% at all of 1 mile, 2 mile, 5m and 10k but drop to 82.x for 10m and HM and a woeful 68% for Mara (admittedly almost irrelevant as not done one since 2009!). Before SG comes on and says so, I know it is in part down to training but surely not every one of my 40+ 10 milers/HM's over the years has been under-trained for. Sample size a factor to, in that the more you do the more chance you'll get a high WAVA on a day everything drops right (like my freakily good, well for me anyway, 17'50 5K at age 55).
Overall though I'd say the WAVA percentages are pretty accurate, as SG's initial figures showed. I also don't think parkrun should change; there is enough complication already without adding their own version of age grade! What I would appreciate is having only one age grade table and accurate usage. I tend to just google and use Fetch's or Run Bundle's or whatever comes up, but think parkrun's is a bit different and whatever Po10 use may be different again (my figures above I took off the Po10 site). Also I don't know if parkrun and Po10 allow for part years of age? parkrun never used to, so you jumped on WAVA for the same time if you went past a birthday. Not aware that has changed if it has. Maybe our stats expert PMJ can shed some light on all this?
I can't wait to see what Jools thinks is a 'jam-packed' race weekend!
15 miler for me on Saturday and then back to back zwift races on Sunday morning, this completely wiped me out and revealed I have probably not been getting enough sleep and the second race I had no legs at all and just pootled round. I did manage 55 running miles for the week though which is probably the most for a few years,
Need to throw in individual strengths/preferences too, but the numbers above show it was easier to get a higher WAVA at shorter, 17.46 5k v 77.54 HM
(I say having obviously not got within 9 secs of that in the last 4 runs
It'd really complicate it if you had partial years!! But otherwise it's suddenly a 10 secs drop at 5k overnight!!!
Reg - a normal Jools week can be 3 races totally 30miles, so a jam packed one could be carnage!!
I'll get some interest back in WAVA results once I have one to shout about
Reg - similarly, I shudder to think what a "jam-packed" weekend would look like for Jools!!!!
Jools - I occasionally get a pain like that that goes as quick as it comes. I am convinced it is a trapped nerve type thing. Billie is Amanda's dog btw - an ideal division of labour in that I get to throw a ball and have fun making Billie do lots of reps and she has to pick up the shit
LSR yesterday turned into a fairly decent distance at 13.4M, but the legs were mashed the whole way! I do need to work out a proper route though, ideally for 14M, as there's a tendency to set off and bimble and all the "natural" routes I've found tend to max out around 11 miles. It will be easier when things have dried out and the possible extensions aren't just a sea of mud!
It's 17.47 to match the same WAVA as the Wokey HM, which I'd be disappointed to not hit this summer.
The 10ks have been a bit skewed so far, but the 5m was 0.79% better than the half, and I'd hope to clamber into sub 17.47 5k terrain this summer to show similar ish for the 5k too.
Yes, the compulsory vaccs for NHS frontline staff were dropped, but new starters as far as I believe need to be jabbed. Lots less work for this Workforce Planning officer
Cheers TT - Yes luckily my speed has generally stayed around and will be the focus of my running on-going.
So might jog later in the week - definitely just looking for a B team slot in the 12 stage at MK at the end of the month. April looks decent with an open meeting, national and masters relays in Brum and the Battersea 5k at the end of the month.
Totally agree, if a summer campaign realigns everything the world will be back to rights, but what if you get down to 17:30, then your winter comes into question
Rather than a 5k where you can probably do 15 in a summer without too much worry.
Simon, you sound pretty confident your boys will make the finals then!
We're up to MK for the lark in 2 weeks. I'm in the middle, which is when the women are out which is good as the numbers on course are much higher.
The later legs must get a bit bleak.
Decent lick in fairness, after the busy weekend combo.
3.29, 3.31, 3;30, 3.27, 3.27
Could probably serve as the lighter version of last week's 8x1km with a weekend race it was intended as, or a 5k paced sesh in its own right to be honest.
Just a single today, as off to the United game.
Will probably do a 5-6 when I get back tomorrow, and then light doubles until SAT OFF.
See you at MK. Funny last year folk running around the delivery robots!
In London tomorrow - think i'll start with walk jog to station. Don't want any post viral bollocks etc..
Reg on high mileage sounds a fearsome prospect.
Enjoyed reading the Sunday report, SG. Those kinds of low-stakes events are great.
As ever, great commitment to the trails from Bus.
Pleased you are feeling a bit better, SC. Interesting to read your comments – a worry day 5-7 worse!
Perhaps inevitably, tested positive on the Covid home kits from Sunday (although actually had our monthly ONS PCR test on Saturday – two days later this was revealed to have been positive). Felt fine at first, but the afternoons and evenings have nosedived. Managed a very slow 5k with the buggy at lunchtime yesterday, but don’t imagine there will be anything greater than that for a few days yet.
Have the FoD half on Sunday in which I was really looking forward to giving the full beans. Will have to see what happens: anything from DNS, to slow run, MP or full smash out off an enforced taper! Just hope I get right in time for Manchester.
Really not sure about running a half this weekend mate...
I don't think I have ever been accused of high mileage before! I doubt I'll be going beyond 60 miles in Ironman training.
Easy 10 yesterday morning and a double on Monday. Did a recovery 5k in the morning and then 10k with a minute on and minute off after an easy warm up. The ons were about 5:25 pace and the offs 6:30 so more of a float. Hamstring tendon issue was restricting the faster reps otherwise I may have pushed them a bit faster but all worked out at 40 min 10k.
I noticed Kevern is running around a lot of my rural routes stealing one of my CRs in a 31:xx 10k interval! I thought I was relatively safe after Corney had stopped running around my manor!
Woke up at 5am this morning so did a 4k swim before breakfast and now I am trying not to fall asleep!
Out yesterday I bumped into Steve Roberts who got a solver medal over 800 at the British Masters Indoor Championships at Lee Valley a couple of weekends ago. 2:22.25 for 800 as a V55 not too shabby at all!
Did I post any posts about this, I assumed that the normal suspects would be out picking up medals at such an event.
Did see him marshaling at that Marlow 10k MT one I did last autumn. His marshaling berth was about as dull as it could be for such a course, about half a mile into the route, ushering people down one of those footpaths between the Marlow 5 course, and emerging towards Marlow Bridge.
It's been a busy week as I am entered into a Zwift racing tour with 12 races in 16 days and race 6 was yesterday morning having also raced Friday night. Some of them are quite long too, Saturdays nearly two hours! So those are the disclaimers, probably going to hit 18 hours training this week by dinner time.
So Eastleigh 10k continues the Reg/SG going to the same race series after Chichester & Wokingham but thankfully this time to better weather. Form wise I felt like I was in marginal sub 33 shape based on Wokingham but not expecting it today due to the large increase in training recently.
Started my warm up and bumped into SG coming the other way so we shared half a mile or so whilst discussing the length of his shorts, I say shorts because he again had two pairs on with the lycra underneath for 'modesty' I went for the immodest just half tights option today given my quads are a bit battered from the cycling and what used to be just a triathlon thing seems to be rapidly spreading among runners, particularly at the pointy end, if you'll pardon the phrasing
Anyway back to the race. I lined up three rows back with the intention of heading out around 33:00 pace and seeing how it felt. Breathing is heavy as we start and there's a good 40-50 ahead which makes me think I am struggling but I go through the first km in 3:08 which makes me think the quality today is pretty good. Breathing starts to settle down and I guess I am just not used to fast efforts these days and we're though the second KM in 3:12 on the marker but 3:18 on my watch. Still making no headway on the field ahead but not losing places either. 3:16 for the next and then the hill which is longer and steeper than I remembered and I lose a couple of places, this always happens as I stick to the same effort uphill and everyone else seems to push harder. Anyway that was a 3:28 but I figure I had some in the bank already so we're still on track for 32:59. The next one's downhill though so through 5k in 16:12 on my watch the results show 16:24 so not sure where the 5k mat was or what why my final watch time was 4 seconds faster than official.
To be honest the second half felt slightly easier, I think the wind was helping and the only hill already tackled so another 3:12 to 6k and then a 3:17 to 7k made me think I can probably keep this going now. I tried to recall what 33 was in KMs and I figured it was 3:18 so I must have enough in credit here. A 3:15 to 8k and it's just a question of trying to raise it a bit now as I have been relatively comfortable (for a 10k) and this is where I think the lack of speedwork shows as I struggled to push on the last 2km. 3:12 for KM 9 though is decent and we soon turn off the road onto the path to the finish and those around me are finishing a bit faster and I fade slightly in the final straight to a 3:14. My watch reads 32:38 but officially given 32:42. that's another 51 seconds off the PB.
Very happy with that on tired legs and I'd hope there's more there and perhaps sub 32 is a realistic goal, who knows.
What I do know is the Zwift race coming up is going to be a sh*tshow!
I set my 10k pb at Eastleigh in 2013, and I've always wanted and meant to get back there, but there was always a reason that stopped it. Be it a clash with another event, snow (!) in 2018, and a couple of springs killed by the pandemic.
With Wycombe playing Portsmouth away the day before, it was an utter must do, when fate ties up that brilliantly, you know it was meant to be.
Booked a hotel that turned out to be as little as half a mile from the venue, and all looked well set.
A good job really, as now they've moved the Eastleigh start to 9am it'd probably be asking a bit too much to get up and get going by 6.30 to make sure of a comfortable arrival.
It did mean I saved the driving shenanigans to the day before and was startled that it took 2hours 30 (!) to get to Portsmouth, with the sat nav's finest work being taking me off the M3, for a tour of some random villages, and then back onto the M3 later! Can only imagine the "clever" GPS had decided this was the quicker route due to delays!
Anyway, Sunday morning was an unwelcome 5.50am wake up, stuck to the pre race eating regime as closely as possible, but can't say I particularly fancied it. But that's probably standard race behaviour!
Initial plan was to wander round, pick the free t shirt up and survey the scene, and then come back and doss about a bit more.
This quickly changed to taking a kit bag for the free storage, and not coming back...only to realise when checking my shorts pocket that I'd by accident brought my phone & case, crammed with £40 cash and a debit card too...maybe not the best to leave in an unmarshaled hall!
Quick trip back to the car to unleash, and then back to the leisure centre.
Strangely, for an event with up to 3,000 at it, I found Reggie, and after a share bit of warm up, I had a decent 2miles on the clock.
Usual last min "preparations", including the very last min of last min pees, accidentally kneeling in stingers, which I can actually still feel now, 9 hours later for goodness sake, and it was to the start.
Slightly worried for a second when seeing the only way onto the road was via a tiny little gate, that 100s were all smothering, but easily through, and unlike Wokingham, very easy to get into the fairly wide grid in a sensible position.
I knew this race was high quality, and probably was only top 70 or so back in the 34:30 pb year, so knew I best start 8 rows or so back.
I knew that without any sort of doubt I should be beating the 37.02 at windy Chichester, and 36.53 at "long" Silverstone. Especially having gone through 10k at mid 36s within a half marathon recently.
However, you don't get anything for "shoulds".
The start is a lovely smooth wide long road, that gives you a decent start.
Loads are ahead, and notably quite a lot of women.
Have seen a couple of Wycombe Phoenix vests as well as an old pal from Sandhurst who I think runs for Aldershot, who are heavily represented, as are of course the big local clubs.
I'm taking splits off the road markings rather than letting the watch pick them up, which always gives the risk of some out of sync ones, but takes no set up!
3.31 first km, which is fine, not too mad, and a decent start. The race romps towards a bridge with loads of spectators looking down, and we're taking a right, with the 2nd km coming up 3.25 (later shown as slightly short!).
The profile has the slightest climb out to 2miles, and then quite a deceptive hill, that looking at the graph is actually 65 or so feet over quite a short distance.
3rd km 3.40, 4th km with the hill 3.46(!)
I'm just running as feels the right effort, doesn't feel smashing it, but doesn't feel too easy. I know a recent 10k was 3.42, so even the 40s don't unduly concern me, unless they stay around!
The 5th km is the cashback, as you turn back to the bridge we'd gone right at earlier, this as the down, as well as being a 0.59m km (!), with the last 2 being 0.63m.
Therefore a 3.28 is a welcome return, and sees me through 5k nicely sub 18, which is a boost after a 18.09 parkrun last week.
Next couple of splits are a bit mad with a 3.46 and then 3.28, but clearly looking now it's a 0.67m and then 0.59m job!
At some stage through here we're tight to the pavement with cars in the road.
We pass a big crossroads and I'm looking to my left and can see marshals are stopping the cars from turning into the road we're going straight onto, but I can't actually see how the cars due to go across us are being held back
Bearing in mind they'd surely have to be sat there for about 20-30mins to get the whole field through!
Anyway, I'm sure there was something more official doing it, or it'd have been carnage!
We're up to the Leisure centre and still with 3km to go.
Along another road to the 7th km and I know I'm going well, slightly surprised that the effort level is fairly doable, but then realising that this must be what happens when you're at the right one!
I'm using a woman and a guy in green to keep turning over well, and at 8km, up with a 3.41km, I do my classic "worst case" calculation by adding 8mins on for the last 2km, and that comes out mid 36. That'd already be a good chunk off the last 10k, and matching the Wokey 10k.
However, it's up for grabs today
The beauty of these races in kms, is how quick those km markers turn over!
9th km is up at 3.29, and I clock that a sub 36 should be pretty doable.
But no messing.
I go past the woman and green shirt, as I've got a bit more, and I can smell that finish.
Down the road to the Leisure centre, left into the grounds, and it's a path now to the finish.
Sometimes these finishes can be deceptive and you think you've got ages, and it goes in a puff of smoke.
The finish at the Ealing Mile is the best example of that, where you think you'll absolutely munch sub 5 by loads, then end up over!
On the last couple of hundred run in now, and I feel sorry for one guy who has stopped knackered at this weird sort of "false" mat/speedbump thing. KEEP GOING yells the marshal. I run over this and wonder what the hell it's serving, 50metres from the finish, no discernible role, but something you could possibly trip over!
Past a guy who looks shocked when I scream "come on, sub 36" and monstered a couple (including early finish boy) to go over the line for a 3.32 last 0.64m in
That feels a pretty strong result, fastest 10k I've done since 2014 madly!
The two 34xx, 34.30 and 34.43 in 2013 will take some catching, but maybe the next bracket of 35.20 & 35.24 in 2011 and 2012 are in sight now.
I'm sure that's a better WAVA result than Wokey too.
I had a look at the calculators, and a 28.35 5miler suggested a 35.59 10k, so it's better than that, but the 77.54 HM fairly ludicrously suggests there's another 25 seconds to come off.
But I've long thought these calculators are bit unrealistic from long distance down to short to be honest. Certainly are for me.
Either way, a superb weekend, and look forward to the lighter 12 stage relays stuff next week, for some good old fashioned team mate banter.
Good bit of cool down yabber with the woman who was helpful for a couple of km late doors, as well as with Reggie on a nice relaxed cool down. Always a great time when the result has been earnt.
Looking beyond the 12 stage relays, I'd love to put a 10miler in, that is worthy of this and the Wokey HM.
However, i'm sure that will depend on how kind the weather in.
Feels like a good run of races in 2022 though, slowly building up, and hopefully can take it up a gear maybe going forward.
2x17.53 5ks within that 10k today (with one I expect being slightly quicker), so there should be some sub 17.30 5ks without too much work, and hopefully develop that to quicker as the summer goes.