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Moraghan Training - Stevie G
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🙂
You start out with a block of muscle which has been largely fixed since the growth hormones stopped flowing post adolescence. That muscle is the only place the Mitochondria can be. Training can increase the number and density of the Mitochondria within that muscle, but only to a limit. Your peak performance is the realisation of that limit.
You are now on the plateau. And unless you can increase the aforementioned number and density of the Mitochondria, you'll only decline. The base needs rebuilding, and that takes a paradigm shift in thinking.
Namely, you have to think body building, not fitness.
All those sessions, long hard runs and parkruns. They won't work. You and thousands others are already as fit as you can be. But your bodies are wearing out. Hard efforts just hasten the inevitable*
One aspect of decline is a permanent glycogen depletion. That's where the speed is sourced from. Optimum glycogen stores are difficult to maintain. One session or a satisfyingly brisk long run will wipe them out. Three days each ingesting 300g of carbo is about the limit of replenishment. Try doing that with bread at 15g per slice!
Cutting out mileage, doing just a few strides, living on oats and whey protein will deliver some speed. But the long term solution is the need to build muscle. And running doesn't do that unless running up hill only.
These are my thoughts on the subject, but at the same time, I'm not trying to sell anything or convince anyone either.
*See the Over 60's thread.
🙂
SG - Jr has similar problems with his watch optical HRM too. At one stage it told him he was averaging 205bpm for a jog! That sounds like the way to go for your session - I'm ultimately quite lazy so I like to 'sit in' on sessions (particularly shorter reps) early on rather than hammer it. If I feel stronger later I ease through the gears a bit, but even then it is rare for me to beast myself.
Jooligan - I think you've nudged on the/my problem with the Maffetone method. You say you ran the same pace yesterday at the same HR as back in 2017, but going by the Maffetone method you should have been running at a HR 6bpm lower as you're 6 years older. IIRC* I think for 6bpm lower as you should have been for Maf HR you'd probably find you're 18-24s per mile slower.
The principle is sound but it's very generic. It's the equivalent of saying that everybody's max HR can only be 220-Age (based on that I should still be in my 20s), or that everybody's max degenerates by 1bpm/year (for equivalent race efforts I seem to have lost about 6bpm in 15 years).
I like the Hadd type training, which is pretty similar to Lydiard in terms of principles. I'm happy to post some links/stuff on both if you want (probably best to do it in a different thread rather than clog up here though)?
* I put a lot of time into looking into HR training early on when I started running and 3-4s per bpm on easier stuff seems to be pretty standard (the quicker you go the less benefit you get per beat as the heart becomes relatively inefficent as it works harder).
Thanks for the kind comments, everyone. Sorry for waffling on 😆
Recovery 5 yesterday. Very tired but no injury hot spots to speak of. Similar run this morn: 5.7M at 8:30 average.
Planned on an hour general gym stuff tonight during my daughter’s gymnastics. But stuck in the mother of all traffic jams on the M5. Google is estimating 1h30 for the next 4M 😣
SG - a couple of pages ago you mentioned you Garmin predicting a 2:49 marathon for you and laughed it off. I reckon with minor training tweaks that would be very accurate.
I remember you having success with the Mon-Fri low HR training, Jools. And then shackles off for what you fancy at the weekend. Seemed to work well for you.
TR - I’m chilled about GFA. It’d be good to do it with my mate Ben as his first but 2025 at the earliest I’d imagine. Might see if I can sign him up to Newport in the spring.
SC could well be crossed wires, but think I just heard a ‘Kimpton’ referenced on the Inside Jogging Podcast. Is that your mate?
Obviously my morning trudge calmed it down a bit for the lower distance times.
I really need to turn those hr off
I don't even want to know what pace I was doing for those first few reps last week to end 1.12/1.13 having taken it steady until the cone!
Tomorrow is more fun as the 90secs breaks up ideas of identical length reps. And the fie;d gets split out and randoms to overtake to spice it up.
Last week was intense, knowing it's that full 400m each time, same guys to hold just behind. Until overdoing it!
Will try and do the opposite tomorrow, ease in!
So the high gearing/low cadence acts as weight training then Ric?
I agree that Maffetone’s HR values are far too generic TT. In fact a lot of his ideas seemed to lack any scientific rigour which put me off becoming a devotee. I just used the MAF test as a way to measure progress briefly & felt like that HR was relatively easy to maintain. Until recently it probably had been harder since last November’s Covid, as I was compromising my form to run slow enough & was therefore running a touch faster than recommended.
My max HR doesn’t appear to have declined since 2017 btw hence using the same HR as my benchmark seems reasonable.
Today’s exercise was 2x10M bike commute + an easy 5K at lunch.
SG - those Friday sessions will give you a change of stimulus which is good, regardless of the exact data.
SQ - if i lived where you do, I'd be on Newport esp its now got the London team organising.
I'm on the build up again, hopefully my knee settles and needs less managing as time goes on. I'm never going to be 100% at age 56 putting decent road miles in anyway.
Jooligan - the fact that your max HR hasn't dropped in 6 years highlights the problem with the Maffetone approach - he's very prescriptive that you run to 180-Age. In the real world that kind of restricted thinking where everybody is in the same box/boat is equivalent to saying horoscopes can predict exactly what will happen to 1/12th of the population.
I would broadly agree with Ric that rebuilding your base, some alactic (up to 10s with recovery of 2-3mins to allow for full ATP replenishment*) speed, and weights will see improvements, but personally I would also include a controlled long tempo at a couple of bpm below Mara HR, and a light fartlek session (that's what I'm starting on and I'm probably in a similar boat to you).
* alactic strides of up to 10s use ATP as fuel so don't break the Lydiard principles of not doing anaerobic work in base.
TR - good news on the knee. I used to do (and enjoy) a lot of fasted runs (situation rather than planned), but with the fibro I've found that the stress put on the body by it is too much. I'll allow a morning jog now without eating, but that's it in the main. Very good point on weights and testosterone/HgH.
8m 'MLR' yesterday as 5 easy, 3 steady (all by HR). Surprised for the 5m to come out at 7:42 (around 7:55-8:10 is probably closer to what I'd expect at the moment). The 3 steady came in at 7:00, which correlates well with Monday's sub-threshold tempo (usual gap is current MP + 30-40s).
Normal pace/effort service was resumed for my evening jog.
SG, trust you saw the cancellation
https://bmaf.org.uk/2023/10/23/bmafxcr23e/
CANCELLED – The 25th British Masters Cross Country Relay Championships
Former being the masters road relays the club are doing, the latter, the xc version they never were.
Ta though
Won’t be doing any of those for at least a week though.
Much better paced sesh tonight.
Treated it more like a faster sort of slightly interrupted continuous run rather than monstered reps, and it meant I was never in any peril of discombobulating like last week.
Probably helped the couple in and around my paces weren't there so I didn't get too keen as well.
45mins fartlek yesterday (+wu and cd). Started with a mix of 1-3+ min efforts and then had 3 x 5min efforts with 3 x 10s strides between each 5 minutes.
8m this morning. Same route as Thurs. Pretty consistent for the HR.
Thurs: 5m easy (7:42/m - 149bpm), 3m steady (7:00/m - 159bpm)
Today: 5m easy (7:42/m - 149bpm), 3m steady (7:06/m - 159bpm)
I felt tighter today on the steady part (back). That makes 67 for the week, so happy with that.
Thanks for the feedback.
Against all the rules of running I rocked up to parkrun this morning.😂
Went to my home course for the first time in a couple of months. I’ve been avoiding it as although it’s beautiful & pretty much flat it’s very much off-road: boggy bits, a cobbled dramway, tree roots & loads of twists n turns; so the wetter weather (& the fallen chestnuts) ensure it’s always challenging. I figured the softer terrain & lack of big hill would be kinder on my legs & it was also a local chap’s 500th. We started parkrun within a month of each when this was the only one within a 75 minute drive. These days there are dozens within half that time.
No warm-up beyond my activation routine of lunges & leg swings. Opted for the older Bostons as the cushioning is better than my Inov8s. Legs took a minute or two to start turning over properly but after that I was catching & passing folk all the way to 3.5K then working hard to stay ahead. Came in 5th in the end probably less than a minute down on what I would’ve done if it weren’t for yesterday 😎
I didn't mean stop running. I suggest replacing the bulk of the activity with cycling. Not only is it more effective per se. More of it can be done with less damage. To increase in size, muscle need to be loaded in a specific way and there's better ways to do that. I'd leave running for sessions and races.
My running? Yesterday I did a bit on some rain soaked cricket pitches near to home. The lie of the land included a slight gradient with a stretch of grass and mud. A set of reps over 300 and 600 metres had the HR averaging in the 130's bpm, maxing out at 154bpm. Hardly breathing, the pace was in the region of 6:45 min/mile.
Total mileage since June 2020 (running) 19 miles.
Picture taken on the 27th. Still working out where my legs are. But definitely not ruined 😉
🙂
Today's 6 at 7.36 pace was judged such an effort by my watch it reckons 3.5 days recovery needed.
Hitting 192 HR near the end apparently.
All absolute gub of course, wrist HR which isn't accurate anyway, loose fitting, bit moist, and all of a sudden a silly reading. Reckons i can do a 18.10 5k now! That's gone seriously backwards since that 1645 it reckoned a week ago
13 yesterday basically out to Marlow, with either the plan to say hello to some Striders starting their recce of next week's races, or go past the Marlow Bottom Scarecrow trail. But in the end did neither, coming back to Winchbottom for the long drudge climb, that really steepens over the last half mile, clatteringly so.
Bit of offroad earlier, bit of woods action later, which despite being downhill was pretty much the 2nd slowest mile of the run.
7.40 average felt fine though, especially as second half of Saturday came over a bit sneezy again.
Only oddity was a young runner lady was stationary when i passed about 3.5miles in, only to then storm up to my shoulder, overtake, but then sit about 10metres ahead for half a mile. A few friendly exchanges, with me beckoning her past as I could see she was "In a hurry" to her saying how she was pressurised to stay ahead now she'd gone past, but I was motivating her.
As I was doing double the distance, with hills to follow late doors, I certainly didn't want to overdo it this early, so stayed sensible.
For all the years of running, and however many runners you see, it's strangely unusual to have someone pass you on a training run. Shouldn't be, but is.
Certainly it was on Sunday morning in the weather I was running in too! When I stopped to fiddle with my phone. Just didn't expect anyone else to be out.
Anyhoo - Sorry can't contribute to all the technical stuff. Just do the same things and if it feels the same or easier for a quicker time, then i'm getting fitter.
Thursday - 16 x 300 on the track, with 100m jog. 50 to start, couple of 49's then a mixture of 48's & 47's. Then straight down to the folks in Poole
Friday - jog down to the beachut (3 miles) through Branksome chine, then as AT LAST there were some decent waves I got 30 mins in the sea before I started feeling really cold! Some pretty big ones coming in, well above my head when I was standing waist deep. Got battered about by a couple and had to go under a couple too. Just about got the sand out of my ears
Saturday - Poole Parkrun
Jog down (3 miles) then ran round with Ollie and we managed to finally get under 19 with a 18.55, so he was chuffed. The 9 year old wonder kid did high 17's.
Little brat
Did 30 hard, 30 jog for 30 mins back to the house
Sunday - Long run. Basically a big square round the outside of Poole/Bmth. Hammering it down at the start, and then for a bit towards the end. That heavy I had to shelter in a bus stop. 15.5 miles with very heavy water loaded NB Propel.
7 miles this morning.
I got into some nonsense in the early running years. Foolish stuff like utterly smashing myself to get away from someone trying to keep up, turning round half a mile away and realising they'd long disappeared. Pre session too!
And once coming up to a main road, clocking someone utterly monstering along in my direction and for some inexplicable reason putting max pace on to keep ahead. Well above my level.
Then having to jump behind a fence and discombobulate out of sight.
So I was pleased with the these days discipline on Sunday
Told myself i'd do somewhere 6-7miles, but casually left.
6.24 first mile, remembering last week's 7 was 6.27-6.24. Then a 6.16, but then saw a couple of 6.24s on the Kingsmead out and back stretch so assumed I was well off last week's 6.19.
Thought i'd do 6 today that'd be plenty, but then thought i'd at least finish "hard" for 0.5m extra. Which was a low 6, nothing too insane.
All of a sudden we have 6.5miles at 6.20 average, a mere 1 second off last week's 7.
Funny old game this running at times.
Race on Sunday, so nothing special rest of the week, breaks my run of 6 Friday track sessions in a row, but i'm not to be trusted to go along and have a nice jog around, that'd be unlikely!
Think I got away with a 5k offroader a day and half after track, but not one of the hilly Marlow races.
Had a laugh with a few people who I could see just in front of me when I used to shout 'Its ok i'll hold my breath!!' all taken in good jest.
5.00,4.57,4.51,4.54,4.55,4.48. Notice way too knackered after the 3rd one, needed to ease off the first lap
Mr Kimpton was there again, definitely got faster than last week, disappearing into the distance again
Obviously must be pretty decent for a venue to have you and Kimpton there!
So lots of chances to mix up the distances.
9 miles in total doing the London commute yesterday, in work now, just did 5 x 400 loops round the St Pancras park next to the hospital. Didn't get too wet.
Bit less than normal as got what is likely to be a sapping Mansfield on Saturday.
SG - people regularly pass me on training runs, or pick up the pace if I pass them. I don't get it. Good training.
SC - likewise, good training.
PMJ - I used to have people jump off a wide pavement and run in the road during early covid days as they approached. Though even now walkers step back into driveways more often than not, so maybe I just look like I'm to be given a wide berth.... lol.
Came down with what I was classing as a horrendous cold over the weekend, but given that it left both Mrs TT and I bedridden and there was both covid and flu going around her work I suspect it was possibly one of those. Getting jabbed for both recently probably would account for not being completely wiped out by whatever it was if it were one of those. Done a very easy 4m yesterday that says this week will be gentle mileage only.
Say you've done 6x1500 at average 4.54, pro rata that's about 5.15 for a mile.
You've run around a 4.40 mile this year, so 35secs slower for the mile (pro rata'd up from your 1500)
Say i'd be 5.00 for a mile, for the maths, my equivalent would be 5.35.
Pretty tough I'd say, but you're a bit of an animal, so probably does make good sense.
I like to put a bit of context on reps etc as obviously some people are faster, but it's good to know how it works in their overall body of work.
Like with the tempos. 6.20 for me is a zone down from HM, whereas when you do 6.20 it must be cigar on, bring a tv, wave to fans type zone
Loops of say a London park I dare say there'd be all sorts out, and bound to get passed, especially if just easy running.
Hope the ills disappear for you quickly. I've spent a couple of weeks with the slightest hint I might be very slightly dipping into similar territory, but never gone beyond sneezing fits, which might be random allergies, and a bit of a warm head / cold sweat on runs a few times.
Was happy to get that 6.5m tempo in on Tuesday as certainly didn't fancy it!
7.5miler yesterday, huge hill about a mile in that I dribbled up, feeling imposter syndrome pretending to claim i'm fit. Heavy rain later too.
Today classic 6&4, probs one run tomorrow, then that's it before a Marlow hilly job.