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Moraghan Training - Stevie G
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Ageing rather than ailing for the most part I think - though I accept I may need to do things differently as time marches on, and amend my expectations accordingly....
Yes, you've recorded some commendable numbers, but at what price?
Sooner or later you'll have to abide by the rules of physiology and accept that you're chronically over trained.
Up to you to see it. Maybe then you can do something about it.
Ageing!
Cart before the horse. You just haven't accepted that you're 50 before going out and attempting something someone in their 20's would do.
🙂
Did you read this bit - "I accept I may need to do things differently as time marches on, and amend my expectations accordingly...." ?
I read everything you post. Makes for uncomfortable reading at times.
I did read that line. Actually quite revealing as regards your approach.
Meanwhile,
It was quite clear from the first steps that I could cruise this one, and still average sub '8's.
Good enough.
I suspect Bus, you wouldn't have been able to resist the urge to smash it.
🙂
Nice long run by the way
That's a very casual 18miler chucked in there ric! Hope you're on the peak of your current cycle and you make it to a race.
Just a 6 for me to bring a 62mile week before a packed monday including a race.
About to set off up north now. Horrible weather. Hopefully over the 220miles(most today) the weather gets better!
Ric, you were a top class local level athlete in your day, but it does get a bit galling for the rest of us to only ever get criticism, veiled or otherwise. You sure are a fountain of knowledge of all matters running so a real asset to the forum and are not doubt trying to be constructive; it just doesn't come across that way sometimes.
6 x 1k tomorrow, plus a final show before heading south
At 64 I feel reasonably qualified to offer a view on running when older! At my 40th birthday one of my club mates, 18 years my senior advised me to concentrate on strength, stretching and speed, arguing that with years of running behind me stamina wasn't an issue, and a 2 hour run every two to three weeks would keep the stamina bank topped up. Strength, flexibility and speed are what fade as we get older and strength and flexibility protect from injury; and if one isn't used to running at speed and then race, then disaster may well strike.
One of my friends, a year older than I am, never runs for more than 45 minutes, does lots of strength, flexibility and longer speed work but is able to churn out 5ks in the 18:30 to 19 minute region, with 10ks between 38 and 39. His longer speed work is 3 to 6 mins hard or fartlek. I have never known him to have a serious injury.
I spoke with my now 82 year old club mate recently and he hasn't changed his views on how the older runner should train and is still doing a weekly track session with two 85 year olds!
Any changes to training routines need to be gradual as it takes far longer to adapt as we age. The key things, as at any age, are to be consistent and build in progression to that consistency.
However and this is the clincher for me....Bus dont care! he wouldnt change it for anything. i get the impression he enjoys running, and training & racing over hilly terrain, over the longer distances when maybe less would allow more. Running to the train stinking the carriage out plastered in mud. but i picture Bus smiling whilst he is running (when he isnt wretching of course) Genuinely enjoying it. im not saying he isnt working hard, im sure he is pushing it hard, just that he picks the course based on something other than flat and tarmac to get the pace up. The terrain and volume is his resistance. Yet still gets good for age times in his races.
I bet Bus wouldnt swap with me for a yr, get my race times but have to do my training plan . He would be bored to his tits running the same canal path every day, out and back. then for some variety going to the track for a specific amount of reps at an exact prescribed pace. I enjoy the speedwork but the rest of it bores me, I dont enjoying running as much as Bus, which is why i see Bus running for ever, well into his 80's. Whereas i will be sat in a chair telling people i used to be a bit nippy, Bus will be roaming the hillsides and fells scooping up v80 prizes and choosing races based on if they have cake/beer at the finish line.
To explain:
Training to me follows a sequence: 1.health, 2.conditioning, 3.fitness, 4.race fitness.
Injury and illness negates the sequence. Health first.
One item follows from the other in a linear fashion on the ascendancy. It can revert suddenly more than one step in reverse.
Each stage before the next. Sometimes the next stage never happens or takes an age to arrive, but corners cannot be cut. Try racing when ill or injured!
My criticism is aimed at; fruitlessly it seems, trying to prevent the corner cutting.
SG, the race is pending, only it isn't!
These days I haven't a great deal of interest in racing for myself in isolation. I'm not a pot hunter, and my ego isn't so fragile as to be fretting about where I stand on PO10.
No, this is aimed at the longest leg of the Round Norfolk Relay. It's a club event of course, and the leg is a near 20 miler starting on average sometime after mid-night.
I'm in the process of giving myself the option of doing it. The actual doing of it will only be decided a couple of days before it happens.
Wool.
The main thing to do is avoid over use injuries. Those don't just happen. They are the result of training errors. Conversely, the longer one can operate without injury, the less likely it is to occur.
How not get injured is another matter. A lot of that depends on how much effort is expended in that aim. I don't regard recovery as merely the space between runs. To me, it's part of the same deal. In fact, it is the deal.
Anyway. That's me done.
🙂
🙂
Pete,
People want something different all the time, but they don't want to change anything either. It isn't criticism when all I do is point out the obvious and offer a solution.
If people find it galling when I refuse to tell them what they want to hear, that's their problem.
🙂
Bus just made a throw away comment about some brief piece of fast work not really benefiting so no need to respond by ridiculing all his training method.
Contrast your approach with the excellent advice Alehouse gave in response to Wool's request yesterday. In my case I recently asked for advice on improving times at longer distances and got some good help from the likes of Matt H, Dean, Wool etc. which I have tried to effect in recent weeks and am seeing some benefits. Your advice was useful too; albeit too much of a volte-face to be really practical for me. Still I didn't mind that as your ways will aways be different to mine and you backed it up with science; I just found it a bit dogmatic that's all. The latest response to Bus though is like some of your earlier ones to Scott E, SG etc. which have been very critical and in areas where advice or views were not even being sought.
Bloody Spurs
🙂
Podium 5k - Monday 27th Aug
Matt had told me good things about his local 5k - the Podium 5k, and I just needed it to work timings wise to get up there. I'd "presumed" that Burnley was a bit closer to Manchester than it actually was, so upon checking, and then realising Barrowford is actually a little further on than Burnley, and it was a whopping 220miler away.
I'd intended to get to a northern 5k for a while, but the idea of driving for 3-4 hours and then trying to be fresh in the evening was always an issue. That or spending a whole day hanging about if I'd gone before.
Therefore, the bank holiday, and 11.30 start sounded ideal, being on the same day as a United game.
Just to cover off even more off the tick sheet, Salford City were playing at 3pm, to make it a mad triple header. Knew I had to go for it, as these 3 things could surely never fall so perfectly again - same day, with hours in between each.
3hours up to Macclesfield on the Sunday night then to split the trip, and then the 50 or so miles on the day to Barrowford Monday morning.
All going perfectly until Junction 1 of the M55 or M56, the Blackburn/Burnley motorway route was shut, with what must have been a severe incident as they were shoeing cars back off it the opposite direction!
A stressy little 20mins driving around, presuming i'd find a work around and failing, before some mad smascking at the sat nav found a proper workaround, using some buttons i'd never used!
Getting closer to the town, the weather was getting really dodgy, super heavy rain, but I was only bothered about getting to the venue.
Matt had supplied some great directions, as we went down a narrow street, over a curious little bridge, and then down this little road under a motorway bridge that I'd have never believed was actually a road, so narrow did it look.
All parked up, and as per tradition, that felt like half the mission done!
Signed up in some little shed, as it's a little windy and rainy, and time to get a bit of a warm up done. I've set the auto splits to come up in km, as I'm aware there's no km markers, and following John's advice, try and get a few mins at race pace, although in the wind this seemed to come out about 6min miling!
The course is a cycle path that's like a really stretched out oval. Really long, with some nice bends.
Enjoy a little wander around, checking out the different club vests, didn't really see any non "Local" ones, and getting a few looks of who the heck are Datchet Dashers. Watched a bit of the B race
Start line of the A race is a real crowd scene, hard to judge how many are there, but while I'm aware I might "Lose" a second or 2 starting a few rows back, I'm always more aware that starting too close to the start could be insane, with 14min types around.
3 rows back it is then, and we're off. Pace feels tidy, and I'm quickly a million miles behind people. It's clear that this'll be the highest quality field I'm ever in, and doubtless, an all time low "percentage down field" figure. There's no tail on this one!
Wonder how i'll get on with what I think the guy says is a 4 and 3/4 lap course. That's quite a unique set up. Great surface and lovely and flat though. I can certainly see how they bill it as the fastest course in the country...on a still day, which isn't today
Quite a decent crowd watching, all cheering on various people. That felt quite unusual too, but then that's probably my lack of track background where this is probably quite common an occurrence.
Early doors I notice a guy in a cap miles clear to my left, must be some incredible runner, shame about the cap.
There's a chap calling splits out, I come in 3.12 first km! Wowzers! That's starting a few rows back too. That's ahead of my Battersea Park 16.56 first km. Watch makes it the same.
Second lap, just carry on. Bit of wind on one outbound stretch, more wind on the run in. A vegan runner woman comes by, despite me putting in a 3.12 km. She must be quite tasty I think, and for a second I start wondering about how veganism works for her running. Mind back on job quickly.
We're on the watch for auto kms now. Second km comes up on... 3.16! What the! 3.24 would be 17 dead, so I'm well on course, well on course, If I haven't overdone it, which it doesn't feel like. This boosts me, and keeps me ticking over.
The third km will be interesting I think. As it's not quite a km the whole way round, the km come up a bit different each lap, so it's all on the watch split.
3.24! Yes, i'm right on this.
I start thinking about all time pbs at this stage, just have to work hard and keep it going.
I seem to be taking a good line, not really in groups, but in little 2s here and there. Sweep in and out at the right time.
Just need to keep this next km on 17.00 pace, and the natural fast last km should take me well under 17 I think.
4th km in a 5k is always tough, and you can always expect to be down on your other splits unless you're a machine. Which I aint. So a 3.26 is fine, and still all up for grabs.
I'm in a group now, and just one more lap to go, it's getting to a real head now.
First time I realise something isn't quite right, is when some animated gruff northerner, that I thought was Shaun Dyche, Burnley's football manager for one hallucinatory minute, shouts with sheer life shattering urgency, "there's 2mins to get under 17".
I look at where the finish is compared to where I am and my thought is "frig it", as somehow this is going to be tight, despite seemingly having a while in the bank.
Round the last bend, and I'm in a little squad with 3 or 4 chaps.
The wind has gone from a fair bit windy, to bloody windy just to spite us, and we're all rampaging in like mentals.
I can see the clock, but it's one of these dodgy angled ones you have to be really close to see the last 2 digits.
First view, and it's on 16.54, foooook, last massive gallop, and as it goes 16.58 to 16.59 I'm over.
And i'm on the floor, sitting/lying for 5-10mins, not even having the energy to do my usual chat the teeth off anyone close by.
I spend ages trying to put my watch back from km to miles, but literally brain wise I can't work the watch out. It takes about 15mins until I can.
I "think" I've at least salvaged a 16.59, and now I realise that in effect the watch was doing what happens when you go to a proper track, over estimating distance.
The first km must have ben legit as that was read out, but the rest must have been under stated. I got 3.2miles on the watch, but thought i'd taken a decent line to be honest.
Results came out later, and somehow got me as 17:00 for 45th out of 65th.
That's by far my lowest percentile finish in a race ever!
Winner did something like 14.45, a win of about 7secs., which surprised me, as I'd thought I saw the winner miles clear of everyone, but maybe I'd seen the guy in 2nd at the time,or overestimated the lead.
Women's winner did 15.55, which Aley later told me was Jess Coulson (new married name is something different, but that's her known name), and she's the All time Women's U23 10mile British record holder, as well as some Number 1 and 2 ranks for events in different years.
Two other women were ahead, the Vegan being in 3rd with 16.40 I think.
Dave Norman's in the results, a pretty well known geezer.
The results went down to 3-4 well into the 18s, 1845 or so the last place.
Strangely about a 17.15 was the winning time in the B race. Should definitely have gone in the A race!
The wind and rain definitely took a bit off me, but one of those "xx calculator" things you can't really judge off. I therefore take the "time sat down after" as a sign the effort was right. HR didn't get close to the Battersea Park 16.56, but that was a hot and humid day, which can only stress things a lot more on that score. Either way it's 4th fastest time ever, with two of the 4 this summer, so probably can look back as a successful summer's work.
Once i'd sorted myself out, and got a mile cool down in, I headed back the 50miles to the hotel, and met up with Aley for the Salford City game leg of the day. A good game, with some good run chat, and thanks to the big man for the lifts either way.
The less said about the 3rd leg, the United game the better! And even less said about how knackered I was after that! Phew.
Day off today, quite an awkward drive In places (is it me or are motorway drives at all times much harder this year?), 4hour + drive, and then a cheeky 4mile run the second I got home.
Dodgy timing, but Wycombe have a game tonight, so I'm glad tomorrow is 2 easy runs!
A good, packed trip then, and finally getting the Northern race off the to do list. Brought up my 25th race of the year, an all time high in a year for me since starting racing in 2002. Am emerging at the end of my tonneload of races period, so will build to a few now.
I think i'll do one more 5k this summer, a return to Gosport. While I'll run it as hard as it comes on the day, I dare say it'll be more an enjoyable return to the coast, meet a couple of pals there, hopefully Scotty might be there, and potentially get in the front end party. Will try and get there early and smash my vouchers down from the last race, now there's a Gosport store
At the speed I tap out posts, that report would have taken me about 3 days to put down. As a reader it's really possible to 'be there' in the moment.
Compulsive reading.
Jess Coulson did that at the Cabbage Patch. Never forget how Nigel Rackham half killed himself to beat who he assumed was the first women in that race, only to discover one JC had finished a couple of minutes earlier.
RNR. Despite suggesting to management that I'd stand in as a last minute reserve, my bluff was called and found myself bolted down for the second leg, a 14 mile off roader.
Committed.
Last year Adrian Mussett belted that leg off at 5:30 mile pace. With sand dunes involved!
Saw him run years back on the track. It was the nearest I've come to seeing a man run to the point of combustion. Explosive!
🙂
Presume that isn't one of the dodgy night legs at least Ric! Those sound the real madcap ones.
Not to knock a 14miler offroader...that's sooner you than me as it is!
It could be fun. One part has me running along a path that I last set foot on about thirty years ago.
That day, a really rare bird that should have been in America was about (Red-Breasted Nuthatch)
There were masses of people looking for it since it spent most of the time hiding, but when a shout of a view went up , there was pandemonium as desperate punters raced to catch up with it.
I never saw it at all. I was only there with a friend to see what all the fuss was about, but found the antics of 'twitchers' off putting. What, with all that charging about week after week, obsessively collecting numbers of, which to most people, are pretty much the same thing.
It's a damn shame we can't help these people.
🙂
Ric - I'm not really wishing to prolong the debate as I am sure it is boring most threadsters, other than to point out that both Dean and Pete have taken most of the words out of my mouth. Whilst I appreciate this is primarily a training thread and accept therefore that there is a standing invitation for all our training to be open to critique for good or ill. I also think that you genuinely feel you have my best interests at heart. However, I did actually find this statement not only rather galling but also patronising in equal measure and feel obligated to put my own view forward:
If you assume by "people" you mean me, which is reasonable in the current context, then there is nothing in this statement that is actually correct:
- I have stated previously that I recognise the need to change what I am doing if I want to change the result. However, at most I will tinker my running to try and reduce the impacts of load on ageing (or ageing on load). Besides, I don't really classify most of my running as "training" anyway. It's more a more just a way of life, with the occasionally session or two thrown in for a target race (something increasingly rare!)
- Yes, you have been at pains to point out the obvious, but I don't recall anything in your recent posts offering any sort of "solution".
- I have NEVER asked anyone to tell me what I want to hear! I don't even know what it is I want to hear myself! I welcome input from everyone on the thread, but this statement actually implies that I specifically sought your views on the matter and have been at pains to rebuke them since, both of which are not the case!
As it happens, I probably do over-train at times and have something of a lack of acceptance to modify what I do with age. However (and not wishing to tempt fate!) I'm actually in pretty reasonable shape despite this. The ongoing problems I have beyond age that tend to occasionally cause me issues (and to moan on the thread!) are long term, physiological problems and not running specific, even if they are sometimes aggravated by running. My hip issues are due to a hip CAM, minor bone deformity and the back and sciatica problems result from a degenerative disc in my back. Neither of these will ever disappear, no matter what I change. The latter has been managed, with pretty reasonable success for the most part, for over 12 years and I have no doubt that I will find a way to deal with the hip issue as well. Who knows if I will be running in five, ten, twenty years time. I hope so, but in the meantime - and listening and considering what anyone else has to say, including you and the distilled wisdom you have gained over years of quality running - I will continue to make my own choices.Bit mad all that SG but fun I’m sure. Good to spend some time up north for a dose of culture. I’ve spent my day jumping off sand dunes so I’m in no position to talk about madness!
Good discussions as always boys, entertaining!
Bus - I'm with Dean. I find my long runs dull in the extreme usually, especially canals - but at least the Falkirk to Linlithgow one on Sunday had a long tunnel and a really high viaduct to keep me entertained. When I'm 80 I envisage gym work, swimming and long walks involving pubs! I need every Sunday run to be somewhere different basically!
SG - good report, yes Rachel did run well (Vegan) bit out of nowhere too, must have been training hard. Nice girl know her as she runs for MK (or used to?). Good run yourself, less said about the footie. How is the lower half by the way