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University fees..
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I dropped latin in 3rd year to concentrate on scinces. I would have liked to pick up german, but even back then, subjects were compartmentalised. I was studying science so I could not study language other than french, although I was allowed to continue my music (a very good match with science and maths, actually)
Number two child is hoping to study conservation biology (an applied, sandwich, course) at uni. He too was forced to take food technology rather than geography. Far from ideal for a child with dyspraxia, and he has found himself having to make up a lot of lost ground in his environmental studies A level, which requires considerable geography.
A man after my own heart.
Johnny, that is, not that tw*t Gove.
it isn't easier than then. but it is easier than when the coalition came to power. now you don't have up-front fees which, again, was what the NUS asked for and got.
unless of course you are comparing gove's policy with that of the higher education policy of the 1980s/early 1990s, which nobody else is proposing apart from perhaps the scottish socialist party.
students from a poor background are better off now than pre-coalition. whether they are better off than before before new-labour is a different question.
Dude, how can you say that? (now I expect Death to come in and play a bit of walking bass).
Poor students were better off in the seventies and eighties when I went to uni - I know, I was one of them.
Yes, the rot set in under New Labour, led by that well known tory, Tony Blair. Things have got even worse under the current right wing government, with their libdem "yes men".
In my day the grant was enough to live on (just), nowadays a few of the very poorest get a maintenance grant which will support them, although they still have to get a loan for the tuition fees. Most students from poor, but waged, backgrounds have to rely on the student maintenance loan, which is not enough to live on - in most universities it is not enough to cover rent. Their parents cannot support them, either the family goes into debt or the student does not go to university.
is that not exactly how is was pre-2008 except now they don't have to pay the fees up front?
now they have a loan which they won't ever pay back.
as i said before, it isn't real debt. it does not count against your credit rating, ability get a mortgage or any other aspect which affects your finances, it just amounts to a small percentage of your salary, ONLY IF you get a job over £21k a year. its a graduate tax, which I already pay and expect others who benefit from a university education to also pay.
it isn't enough to live on, but neither was the pittence offered to students (like me) pre-2008 and at least now they don't have to pay fees up front.
so they are better off.
arguably they were better off in the 70s, but try telling that to working-class taxpayers paying for students who changed their course every ten seconds to be in uni for 8 years.
I missed out on that changing courses trick! Actually, I'm pretty sure that in most cases, local authorites would accept a single change of course, there again, I only remember a couple of people changing, pretty much like today.
On another tack, now that the government have changed their mind and will allow early pay off, rich kids and students who get well paid jobs, will end up paying less for their education than those in average or low paid jobs. How just is that?
not particularly, but again no different than before, and no less unjust than rich people being more able to pay off a ferrari quickly than poor ones.
the point being that those who belong to less wealthy families won't ever pay off the debt, and neither will the students (unless they end up with brilliant jobs, in which case hurrah for them). they will just keep up with the interest payments.
the policy is arguably economically inarticulate, but hardly unfair.
And when the Government sell off the debts and relax the interest restrictions to make these debts more productive and therefore more attractive - say to Wonga or some other legal loan shark. (and there is absolutely nothing to stop them doing this)
This will mark the culmanation of the free market capitalists wet dream. A population heavily indebted before even entering the workforce - and little Johnny and Cheryle more or less owned by a bank or loan provider as an asset; potentially for a lifetime...
There's a name for this sort of thing - it's called fuedalism.
Of course Tarquin and Jemima's daddy can pay the loan off - it's unthinkable that rich kids can be 'owned' by a bank - we're a democracy after all.
one of the guys who works for me has just paid off his student loan. of course he has a brilliant job (as his employer I would say that eh?
) but in reality, although he earns a good wodge, and doesn't come from a wealthy family, he simply got himself very deep into debt a few years ago and went through a voluntary arrangement. having come through that now he cannot bear to carry a debt load of any sort, so it was one his objectives to clear his student debt. he knows he could have just carried on paying small amounts but for him it was the debt he wanted rid of and his way of redeeming himself for previous failings.
thank dog I was a student in the ealy 70's when degrees were worth something and it didn't leave us bereft. I left Uni having had a student grant for 3 years, and was just £20 overdrawn. eeee - those were the days!
He may be, she's just a social climber.
Corrie - im not sure the situation in england but my student debt here has always been that way. i just pay the interest. the debt itself remains the size it was 10 years ago, a fact I am quite comfortable with.
this does not count as debt in the same way credit cards/loans do and is hardly feudalism.
not like you to be overly dramatic though
+1 for the sentiment. I was there for 4 years (technically 3, one spent working / studying abroad) and managed to get by on the grant.
Re the course changes, at my place you were only allowed to change course during the first term of the first year. Changes weren't normally radical and certainly the work lost could be made up, so in effect, there was no change to your grant situation.
If you got to the end of your first year and failed your exams, you were allowed to do resits in September. If you passed, you could continue on the course, if you failed, you were out.
Dude - you're working on the assumption that the level of interest is going to remain static and bearable. In the short term it will - 2, 5, 10 years down the line... who knows?
It depends upon who owns the debt and whether the market will be 'liberalised'. It's my belief it will be. The reason I say this is that these changes are costing the government much, much more money than they imagined - they never imagined for instance the huge amount of institutions who would charge top dollar for their courses - there hasn't been the massive drop-off of students that some predicted.
It's obvious to a blind horse riding a three legged cow backwards that the level of debt the government is taking on in the short and medium term is unsustainable - the obvious solution will be for these debts to be sold on to private providers (it's already happening with defaulting payers) and the only way to make the debts attractive is to increase the yield.
So, you take a low paid but essential job after university - you pay 4% of your wage for 25 years (interest - not collateral) Your overall level of debt does not go down and you still owe the money you borrowed. Some would call that exploitation... some would call it a nice little earner.... I call it fuedalism.
well it started high anyway
and it has stayed the same (high) for ten years.
we were lied to about the interest payments when labour/lib dems sealed the deal in 98. but that's history.
sure its debt. but not real debt as it does not count against your ability to borrow for your business/own a home/etc.
the amount of the debt doesn't matter, because nobody with any sense will pay it.
so we pay the interest, and if some schmuck is making a fast buck out of it? it's shitty but whatever. good for them.
we perhaps have a different definition of serfdom.
Jeez! Who let Corrie in?
Can we just clear up this "your student loan won't stop you getting a mortgage" business?
They took mine into account when I applied for one. Because it was an OUTGOING. If it's going out, they include it. So don't kid yourself it doesn't matter.
It HAS to be relevant. You have a finite amount of money coming in and you want to borrow another finite amount of money. Your lender really ought to want to know how much disposable income you have before they hand over a mortgage for a house. Ours went through everything with a nit comb. They came up with a mortgagable amount far lower than the rest because they took ALL our outgoings into account. And now they have fewer defaults as a result. Any money you have to pay out on a monthly basis is relevant to how much you can afford, surely?
I'm not saying you're wrong, Dude. I'm sure yours said it wasn't relevant. But the fact remains that it actually IS, especially if the figures are tight.
Don't get me started.
First £9,000 a year, That is Fees. people still have to pay rent, have cloithers, eat, you know generally live so going to be somethign like £50,000 at end.
Second it is a loan but not really. You pay it back at a rate of of 9% per year of your salary whatever that is but interest is 3 % PLUS Inflation so coul;d be around 8.5% a year. Current base interest rates are 0.5%. Loan sharks get locked up for this sort of things. Also work the sums out. You NEVER can pay it back. It is a tax which stops after 30 years when the 'loan' is written off.
Of course if you can afford to pay it up front then a single payment and no debt, no tax. So yes the well-off come off more lightly. State School pupils will be put off, written off. So the policy is lets write a whole generation off. That route leads to social breakfdown, riots, increased crime etc etc. The message. Work hard and have a mountain of debt or drop out and the state will look after you. WRONG, WRONG, WRONG message.
Also this was sold on look at all the silly courses,. Well guess what the silly courses are cheaper than science and engineering ones. So you are more likely to get people going for 2 year cheap courses.
Also what about standard, Now the customers are buying a degree and will expect to get one for their money. If you don't get enough marks for a First then just sue for breach of contract. Great but not so good if your doctor is useless in future.
Also do you think it will stay at £9,000. With university funding cut as well some of them will see no point in remaining in the state sector and go private. So Oxbridge will become totally the University for the world's rich (a few rich brits will get in).
This policy is crass and also by the way idealogical. We always complain abouit sort-termism but interesting this does nothing for the country's debt in the short term because the money is still supplied by the governmanet. Only when the student are at work does the extortion return start.
Well said
Haven't a load of universities that said they were going to charge £9K suddenly decided to reduce that ?
so if my overdraft is under 5% apr.........then would it end up cheaper for me to borrow the £50,000 out of there and for them to repay me than to take up the governments scheme...........
Yes, they're going to have to. My brother works in a university, the number of applications for 2012 - 2013 are down by about 15% - possibly more. I think that I heard in the news that some universities are already dropping fees to around £6k or £7k, but I think that it will take a few years before it has any real effect. Universities are also amalgamating and dropping courses - his son was offered a place to do some sort of geography / GPS course, only two universities apparently offer it and one of them has now withdrawn the course, so he's lost his place.
Problem is universities are now seen as more of a business, run by business people, not an academic institution, run by academics. If you look at the size of the non-teaching departments, there are far more of them, they are much more commercial and the universities are run along the similar lines as multi-nationals.
We went to Manchester university open day last year - we were given a slick, professional and very commercial presentation about why we should send our offspring there. Far cry from what it was in my day.
Our boy goes to Uni this September (to study music...have at that if you will
) and the fees here are £3.5k per year...he was offered a place in Manchester so I was very happy (as was he) to get the offer to study at the Universiity of Ulster.