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Ban mp3's/ ipods at mass events
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Straycelt - are you really saying you would actively shove someone out of your way during a race simply because 1) They dared to be in your way and 2)OH MY GOD they had earphones on.
CALM DOWN
It's not that serious
You started this thread, you have had plenty of support and plenty of dissent. You simply will not get everyone to agree with you and those that do disagree are not idiots or bad people, they simply disagree.
I must admit that even in things like FLM or New York marathon the atmosphere doesn't really touch me OR keep me going.
Although i do rememebr one sign that said 'keep running mummy' and I burst into tears.
HOWEVER apart from that - nadda - which must make me a freak according to some posts on here - and oh yes I wasn't wearing headphones at the time either.
Gymaddict, I must agree about the FLM, at the start it was brill atmos but running mile 19 onwards to about 21 thru the dullest docklands landscape with no crowds didnt help with the wall and I was so glad I had some Freddie mercury to keep me going....
its all about choice ,unless it becomes a regulation of course...then its just the rules and it doesnt matter who argues what....Im amazed some people can be so arrogant as to want to impose their choices onto others on the basis they are right and others are wrong, hey ho....
Mellifera. Can't agree. To some races are a social event, but to some, like me, they are a way of measuring my fitness. I don't want to talk to anyone, I just want to race as well as I can. There's nothing wrong in that. The fact that I use an Ipod in training means on raceday I want to do the same thing - races are stressful enough. I am not inconsiderate when I run, in fact the opposite, I am aware of my surroundings, and I don't do anyone else any harm. Why are so many people trying to ruin my racing experience?
It all smacks of Big Brother telling me what I want to do, which seems to be infecting every aspect of modern life at the moment.
Im amazed some people can be so arrogant as to want to impose their choices onto others on the basis they are right and others are wrong, hey ho....
Say that in court and they will be rolling on the f*cking floor!
Im amazed some people can be so arrogant as to want to impose their choices onto others on the basis they are right and others are wrong, hey ho....
Sorry Stat, research proves that people who wear earphones are 20% less visualy aware than those who don't. Oh, yes not you of course. You are so individual that you are above the rest of the human race. Who's the arrogant one?
Laurie,
You are one individual. You may be a perfectly polite; may perceive yourself as being perfectly polite, but not be; or not be polite and simply stating that you are. I have no idea. I am not going to argue on that basis.
This isn't about you as an individual. This is about a crowd of people of perhaps 500-40000 in size.
Some of these events are on closed roads, where the issues are somewhat different, but many races are on open roads. Given crowds of that size for every (say) 50 people who use MP3 sensibly - have volume at a level where they can hear traffic, the footfall of other runners, instructions from the marshalls; only have one earpiece in, so the marshalls are also aware that their instructions have some chance of being heard where necessary; are aware of the propensity for people with headphones on to diminish the 'personal space requirements'; actively ensure that the music device is not taking their attention at inappropriate places; ensure that the music player is not preventing them taking in appropriate actions on course; do not use music to motivate them beyond the point that they should have retired; etc. - there may be a few who do not. As a ex-race organiser I was legally responsible for safety on the course during the race. I have to make a judgement about the safety of all participants. Were an accident to happen where a runner was using a MP3 and this was deemed to be contributing factor to the accident - i.e. a runner didn't just die of a heart attack, then this would open the question as to why they were allowed - had I done my risk assessment appropriately? You cannot asign away your rights, nor those of your survivors to sue me and the race organiser over negligence. I have to take this into account. I have to predict the risk, not just react to risks that come into being.
Even if you and every MP3 runner beleives they would not sue if an accident were to happen and were deemed to be partially down to MP3 player usage, this is not to say that every family member would feel the same way. If you are left with a partner, sibling, parent or child who will require lifelong care, then you can bet that the figures for this are huge and it is more likely that someone will think it a good idea. We are lucky that we have few incidents each year and most are minor. Again, I took that risk assessment on your behalf.
Now say I ban MP3s, or require that 'all runners who wear MP3 players must use a white single earphone and keep the volume at a "reasonable level"', but I fail to enforce this requirement. Again, I can be seen as negligent in enforcing the rules and this again would leave me partially liable in the courts.
I don't want that to happen. I don't want a single accident at a race, if I can help it. The pro-MP3 people seem happy for there to be some risk and for 'accidents to happen', and of course there will always be some risks, but behind an accident you might read about is a real person suffering. Risk is not just probability - its probability x cost. The probability is low, but the cost might well be huge to an individual. Your sympathy might be welcome at that point, but it might not be enough, especially if it was preventable from not wearing an MP3. There might be a small benefit to a runner who is wearing an MP3, but in my judgement in a busy race on roads, this benefit does not outweigh the risks.
If there was no risk, then Triathlon would not have banned it in every event and every discipline, not just the cycling stages? WHy has US Track and Field banned them - yes they insurance company insisted on it. Why did they insist? Because they are experts as predicting risk - their whole business is based on it.
I now no longer organise races - too much time; too little thanks; too many arsey people, insisting on their rights - right to entry even if the event is full as they have entered in previous years - right to run even if they turn up 30 minutes late and the roads have re-opened; and you have just added another reason why I won't be going back to it.
Notes:
Do Headphones reduce safety?
In many US states wearing Headphones while driving is illegal on the basis of safety. Do races have similar risks to driving?
(http://www.iam.org.uk/motoringtrust/news/archive/2005/mobilephonelawloudandclearbutdriverschoosetoignoreit.htm)
Health and Safety policy of University of Leeds
Headphone usage banned by U of Leeds at work where it might jepordize safety. Do races have similar risks?
(http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:aAlk8VHALvAJ:www.leeds.ac.uk/rps/headphones/hphindex.htm+headphones+safety&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=uk)
Airman not allowed to wear headphones where there is road traffic
http://www.osan.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123068966
Similar on another Base(http://forums.runnersworld.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7541032151/m/3141000251)
Would MP3 users all respect a ban?
Mobile phone law loud and clear but drivers choose to ignore it, Do you respect a law you think you can 'get away with'?
(http://www.iam.org.uk/motoringtrust/news/archive/2005/mobilephonelawloudandclearbutdriverschoosetoignoreit.htm)
Straycelt - are you really saying you would actively shove someone out of your way during a race simply because 1) They dared to be in your way and 2)OH MY GOD they had earphones on.
GymAddict, absolutely not but have seen frustrations of others boil over as individuals with earphones did not hear/recognise shouts or warnings and were blocking the paths of others. I usually/frequently give a gentle tap on the elbow or shoulder and even then have been offered less than friendly gestures and/or language. Live and let live... I try to be responsible but I too have rights.
Stat - most people have their little ways/habits of telling their body this isn't a training run, but a race. They put on their 'race' outfit (even unattached runners), possibly lighter shoes, a specific pair of socks.
Doing something different than in training is pretty much the norm.
A very well thought out post Davd. Thanks the links
Im amazed some people can be so arrogant as to want to impose their choices onto others on the basis they are right and others are wrong, hey ho....
Sorry Stat, research proves that people who wear earphones are 20% less visualy aware than those who don't. Oh, yes not you of course. You are so individual that you are above the rest of the human race. Who's the arrogant one?
I hope you are not attributing that first comment to me as I didn't say it. Research can prove anything anyone wants it to prove. I have been running for over 15 years and have never been involved in an accident. I feel I am aware of my surroundings, and with runs on roads with no footpaths in the morning I have to be. I am not above anyone, I dont want to impose my values or rules on anyone, unlike many on this forum. I just want to run. If there is a blanket ban on MP3's in all races heres one less racer. I will have to make sure I get the official times I want asap I suppose, and then get a dog.
David, your argument seems to be based on the assumption that if something is banned then it *must* be right that it is banned.
But in reality, when you look at the raft of things in the world that fingerwagging misery-merchants have succeeded in banning where there was no sane basis for the ban at all, that doesn't necessarily follow.
I suspect this thread is going to go on and on because the sort of people who get on their high horses about ipods are presumably going to be people with a lot of time on their hands.
I don't plan to post here anymore. In closing, I'll say this: while I disagree with the anti-ipod loonies, they will win. Because the way the world is going, the pathetic killjoys of this world are increasingly getting their own way.
Im sorry but your 20% is unfounded otherwise planes would be falling out of the sky due to pilots vision being impaired due to thenm listening to ATC with headphones on, what a crock.....
to tackle Davids post:
Leeds uni - this is erlated to intruders and fires, not something I think is much of a risk on a race.
US headphones - yep, agree with that you are driving a potential lethal weapon circa 1+ tons...however I would counter that it doesnt make a huge difference from having ur stereo up really loud, whats the difference? is the solution to bhan car stereos too?
Airmen - yep also agree being mown down by an F16 on a military airbase is pertty serious, dont wear headphones
WE ARE TALKING ABOUT RUNNING HERE LADIES AND GENTS....
jeeeez
Chazzwick
Agreed entirely with your post, which was the same as I meant but better put. I am also leaving this forum.
Well we could have reasoned light hearted debate, or we can throw insults and leave the thread and even the forum. Your choice.
I mean its not like any of the other 112,000 threads would be of interest. You know everything all ready ?
Neil - Do pilots listen to music all through the flight ? I'm pretty certain they dont. Do they have other planes coming past them and jostling them both sides - again - I dont think so ? Apart from that - er very incisive ?
I like David's post above. Youare obviously talking about a specific set of circumstances where you do need to be aware of cars etc and as a race organiser I would imagine it's easier just to ban everything that you could possibly imagine would be a threat.
Even assuming there was a blanket ban:
I think that people wouldl take no notice. Serious serious athletes won't wear them because it only takes them 10 miins to run the bloomin race anyway and there is no way they would do anything that could be perceived as artificially helping. (and I suspect a lot of runners think of them as a jogger type thing to use)
The jogger crowd will continue to use them regardless of a ban- for the same reason folks park on double yellows, use mobile phones while driving and speed in 30 zones. I don't think mp3 users or joggers are muppets by the way, I just think people in general disregard rules that don't suit them.
The 'in-between' will probably remain a mix. I'm one of the 'one white headphone brigade' and will be until someone or race rules ask me to stop. I will abide by a race rule - that's for sure but if there is no rule then I would rather have the choice. I don't perceive this issue to be signigicant in terms of safety and I think that you chaps arguing so vehemently against them must have had some seriously bad experiences to be so biased. I have done plenty of crowded busy races and have had no issues at all with mp3'd runners (but I am a one ear phone person - because I want to be able to hear the marshalls and talk to folks etc).
*Tongue firmly in cheek*
I've been doing my own experiment based on my running experiences. I've done 6 races, 2 of which I didn't own an ipod for and which were both 5Ks. The middle 3 I wore my ipod and were between 10K and 1/2 marathon. I successfully completed them with no injuries either to me or to anyone else.
The last race was an 8 mile for which I chose not to wear my ipod as it was a trail run and involved river crossings. During the race I ended up with a very sore ankle, and have been off running since.
My conclusion therefore is that not wearing ipods causes injury and they should be encourage at all events.
*Tongue out of cheek*
Gracious me, who would have thought that the humble mp3 player would invoke such responces I am absolutely astounded. I wear an ipod for training and while I could run without it, I prefer to run with it.
I really don't get the animosity towards people who choose to wear them. I do keep the volume reasonable, and I am particularly careful when running in secluded areas. However, you would have to crank the volume up to an exceptional level for it to block all outside noise. I can still hear the traffic, I can even hear a faster runner preparing to overtake me.
Whatever your view happy running.
Make sure you get a flash memory based one not a microdrive one for running with.
OOH all of this makes me a bit angry- we were talking about this at Club last night as a local race has banned MP3's. Sorry, but I am getting really fed up about being told what to do in the name of 'health and safety'. Risk/accidents ARE a fact of life. 'IF' people wearing MP3s might cause a slight issue, well so could someones laces coming undone, or people tripping over discarded water station cups, or an uneven running surface, or a slow runner starting at the front of a race, or someone stopping suddenly on a hill. These things are facts of race life and things you just deal with in a race. Wearing an MP3 in a race is part of my race experience. I download a special track list and look forward to each track coming on and it really raises my spirits if times get tough. And I am a 'proper' runner who usually finishes in the top 20 ladies. I do not train wearing one as I either train with my Clubmates, so a race is some me-time where i can push myself and listen to my music at the same.
Taking the H&S debate to the extreme, well sadly, people do die from just taking part in races - so shall we just ban them all then, just to be on the safe side.?!?!? No, didnt think so.
Instead of using an ipod at races, i have taken to bringing along a beat box ala The Beastie Boys in the 80s, then everyone can enjoy my happy tunes
Remember you have to fight for your right to party