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Moraghan Training - Stevie G
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I think it's valid showing that screen, the watch can't lie surely!
Yes AG, just fancied a change
Talking of which, off on proper hols early tomorrow! Should be interesting as we're going to La Gomera in the Canaries for two weeks. Very hot with very steep volcanic hills at every turn and hardly anything flat as far as I can tell on the map! Not sure how many miles I'll get in, but plenty of climbing I should think....
If I don't manage to post, happy training everyone and good luck to anyone racing!
The race predictor is based on V02 max predictor! This is linked to the Max HR which you have to input yourself so you'll have to make sure that is set properly.
Have a nice holiday Bus, again.
I mainly think garmin estimates are bollocks because I put it what I think is a reasonable estimate of my max HR and now it tells me I burn practically no calories.
Stevie, my 6.30 pace is what comes out when I run in my marathon effort zone, and is highly theoretical for me but centred around what I've seen good club runners heart rates average out at over a marathon and close to what Pftizinger and others prescribe. So I set my zone to be between 81% and 83% of max hr, but I will refine that once I've actually ran a marathon.
Some people think it's better to express your zones as % of lactate threshold heart rate since this moves up slightly as you get better trained. However it's hard to detect accurately without the proper tests Matt mentioned earlier in the thread.
I use heart rate to keep the easy runs easy, and also to benchmark aerobic strength. I barely look at HR (or pace) while on the move now, it's all perceived effort after being trained for a few weeks by the monitor. I did have to refer back to the monitor numbers quite regularly when I started back after injury and some time out earlier this year to re-calibrate my effort perceptions.
It's useful to have a stock route and a perceived effort you can lock into, and then see what pace comes out as a metric. I tend to make this the staple marathon effort runs.
Of course external conditions like terrain and weather play a part but as Lit said earlier too, you put the effort in and that's all your body knows. It's also a bit like stocks and shares - not much point in reading much into the pace versus hr metric at a given point in time but you get some insight into your fitness by following trends over time. It also means you don't have to go busting a gut in a race to find out where you're at. Similarly there are no stale pace zones to contend with - as all continuous runs are being measured by effort output, you're always working off your most recent fitness.
Here's a few traces from maximal efforts at various distances.
First up is a 5000m run - (96% of max, max being 180)
Now the 10k (93% of max). Included the elevation on this one so you can see what that does to heart rate. Quite hard to get the effort up running downhill in some cases and you get (a perhaps unwanted) drop in output.
And finally a maximal effort half (av. 162 bpm)
I was really clinging on to the effort in the last third of that half after sinking too much into the uphill middle section.
Curiously I don't get a lot of this (the top one of those traces was on a pretty warm May evening) and all traces were captured over a period of about 9 weeks.
Hope that makes sense. For what it's worth I didn't get a sane reading from an optical monitor and use a chest strap one instead.
Interesting stuff Muds.
I think any analysis i'm attempting at the moment is impossible for a number of reasons, like it seemingly perennially being humid this last 2months, using a complete default max HR (185, seemingly on 220-age, set by the watch), and not helped by my now long term breathing exceeding effort, or at least the mental perception of it doing so!
Probably like you peeps say, don't make it too much of an importance, but look out for trends. And certainly don't review it the next time I'mdoing a parkrun,as i'd probably have an anxiety attack when I saw that it reckoned I was at 105% of max half a mile in
ps on ridiculous stuff, I was sniffing about the parkrun site, and saw the best WAVA recorded was some old Indian guy, a mere 176% or something.
How the bloody heck can he be 1 3/4 better than the best of his age?!
I thought the time I lined up at a 5k, and they announced some woman as being 99% WAVA was crazy, but at least that was a forumite called Ceal who is about 70+ and is actually one of the fastest, hence close to 100%
SG - I'm the same age as you and my max HR is well over 200. There's no point trying to do anything with it unless you actually have a more plausible estimate than the default one, IMO. Two observations I would make though are (1) I find I get plausible enough looking readings from the optical monitor by doing up the watch uncomfortably tightly, and (2) while I've been having health problems I haven't been able to run fast enough to get into any of the relevant zones (not even HMP during an HM where I was trying as hard as I could) so it wouldn't be much use for that either; the only helpful/encouraging thing was noting as my health improved that I was actually able to hit harder HR zones that I couldn't get into before.
That's interesting, that it can go that high then. Hopefully I've higher than 185 to play with to stop the bastad watch suggesting i'm laundering my breeks at 6.30 pace
I've had the watch up "snug so it doesn't move", but maybe i'll go tighter then,
I read something about where the watches do fall down a bit on HR, is in reps. Presumably you need a prolonged time at harder paces, rather than very fast then complete rest?
had a quick scoot round the net, found a thread where they were talking 240 and 250 readings! Youngsters though, but even a guy in his 60s claiming a 214!
It's not really the watch's fault that short reps don't take long enough to get your heart rate very high. My understanding is that your max is just what it is, and that's individual to you and nothing to do with your fitness. Whether you can actually work hard enough to get to it might have something to do with fitness though...
I look forward to testing it in some MP miles tomorrow for starters, or maybe another 3x1mile session might be more interesting, starting at MP, then going to 10k ish.
Or the next parkrun whenever that is. I'm up north overnight this Friday/Sat, but perhaps the mix of all the travel, and being on my lonesome (outside of the match) isn't the best combo for it!
Some other stuff that I've been paying a lot more attention to is the advised recovery time that the watch pops up. This is based on heart rate variability rather than any hard coded heart rate max values.
Often this seems ridiculously out of kilter with whatever plan you're trying to follow says is when your next session should be. It's poo-poo-ed by most but I've found 1/ recovery time zooming up before I get ill or if I am involved in a bit of life stress and 2/ it correlates well with fatigue levels. If I have a scheduling issue and can't separate harder efforts the second harder effort incurs an increased recovery time over and above what it would ordinarily.
OK, common sense you might say, but if you're following a training structure that's too tough for your current fitness, the effect is insidious and recovery time is a good thing to keep an eye on. Likewise if recovery time is trending down it's showing you're responding to the training and might be able to up the ante. I read of a study that showed people tend to underestimate recovery i.e. they feel better before they actually are. The folks that scheduled based on hrv rather than perception improved by a significant amount (between 2 and 3%) more.
I did exactly that test Muds (amongst a stack of others of course!).
I remember the warm up particularly well, as traffic was appalling, so I went a different way, only to get stuck in even sillier traffic.
I managed to get into an insane position in the carpark, where I was basically in between 2 parked cars, but straight on in between them, with about 6inches either side to manoeuvre! The most stressy 73 point turn ever
Followed by a 1mile pretty darn fast zoom to the hospital, where I wandered in absolutely dribbling in sweat
Erm, the test itself, I remember feeling a bit disappointed I couldn't complete it, but it was only however long after the collapse, so allowable probably.
Guy didn't seem too concerned with any readings, but then as he kept saying, he wasn't a doc. I've grown very wary of a lot of the people along this crap journey, when even a specialist one min ruled out something ultra serious, only to put it back on the table 2weeks later in a letter with a sheepish "can't rule it out".
A few of the appointments have been in arrthymia wards, or with arrhythmia specialsts, but without any definite condition yet. So chuck a potential one of those into the HR pot and it makes it even less certain
All I know, is that lightweights who packed running in because of flimsy motivation, or a niggle they didn't have the heart to work at should really be ashamed at letting their opportunity go.
ps there's a recovery advisor on this watch, but I've seen it say stuff like 36 hours! I'm not sure if that's a field for me to set one, or if it's seriously suggesting I need that long to recover from a 4miler. Probably the former
No that field is purely derived from your heart rate variability measurement Stevie and it's saying take it easy for 36 hours. It's cumulative too - not just based off your last run. I did 21 miles with 10 just under marathon effort yesterday and recovery came out at 24 hours. I'd done 20 miles and 13.1 almost back to back earlier in the week and got a 36 hour recovery after the latter, so just ran a couple of recoveries preceding the 21.
All interesting stuff on the HR. Worthwhile doing a max HR test I would say if you're going to get any good from this. Even just an arbitrary one - 3x 3minutes hard I think is one I've read before.
I've peaked at 202 during a session before, so I take that as my max. On yesterday's run (6x 3 minutes) on the 3rd or 4th rep, I peaked at 196, so that seems pretty close I reckon. 220-age, just seems too inaccurate. If I was to use that, I need to be pretty much 10 minute miling to stay in an "easy" zone!
Muddy, word obviously got out there was a handsome legend in
Thinking back, I had some geezer who probably thought he was still a student, and some middle aged nurse who seemed to do the shaving, attaching pads, touching them very slowly
.
CC, 202 is a big enough one. And it's good to see that i'm probably not super overdoing it on "easy" runs.
Today, i went and turned up thinking i'd do a 3m MP, just to get back into tempo country, and also to test some HR stuff.
Didn't help myself by doing the first 4 laps as 1.23,1.24,1.27, 1.29, when i should have been doing 1.30. Think i must have been subconsciously influenced by some random gimp who jumps on the track for free, and oddly what looked like a bootcamp set up, that didn't use the track!
The rest were all 1.28/1.29s though, and obviously the extra 27metres to tidy it up.
Thought, 3m MP wasn't enough to leave it as, so then went and did
800 2.44
400 1.16
200x2, 36,34
Post sesh i note the top HR was 169. Not sure if that was in the faster stuff, or in the MP itself.Although in fairness it was more 1mile 10mile pace, and 2miles a bit above top end MP
So erm, there we have it!
4m at lunch, felt a bit hot, 6.58 pace, av 145, max 162.
supposedly a new V02 max of 64, which has given some even sillier predictions of 16.06 5k, 1nd 1.13 half
Keep this up and you'll be qualifying for the World Championships next year SG
Relatively hilly 8 miles at lunchtime in what would be considered blistering heat in these parts. 7:53/mile and ave. 156bpm (topped out at 166).
I want one of these watches!
Local types: Reading AC are doing a series of open mile track races at Palmer Park, Reading on Monday 29th August (Bank Holiday Monday). £5 entry. Not necessary to be an affiliated club member I believe. Get involved.
As for me, just bumbling along. Tomorrow evening is a track 5,000 at Wimbledon. I seem to be near the front of the B race, and it looks like there'll be a pacer. With any luck he might be pacing at exactly the pace I want. Fingers crossed.
no, no, I'm just bumbling around Dachs, you're never far off your next epic result.
Might have a look at one of those miles. Although i'd need one/some of you lot there, so that if I have a massive collapse, you can ring the number on my medical band/the ambo
Good luck tomorrow
I should be there SG. If you collapse I will scream at you like a demented sergeant major until you get up again.
good to know!
Late night last night, but a nice 8 laid down. I do a standard 6 mile route, where the first half is a bit of an incline, and thus the opposite back, so adapted that, and rampaged the last 4 in the 6.28-6.33 domain. Can't really pretend that's easy zone, although as it's the "down" part of the route maybe not as far above as it sounds.
sub 54 for 8 will do nicely.
Not sure how rest of the week will pan out. Have a Manc drive on Friday, and the same back on Sat/if not even further back from Blackpool, so a few options to play with.
The silliest of which being a northern parkrun, the most sensible being having Sat as a rest day, with an easy run Fri.
I was going to do that mile, having seen it on FB. I'm on holiday though.
Nice session, SG.
What with you using HR and a fancy new watch you'll be on Strava next setting pavement world records
back from hols so missed a lot but remember Dachs had a good couple of races so congrats...and good luck tonight in the 5000
was originaly planning to have finished track this summer before my hols but as i havent set the world on fire and no where near my targets i have decided to try and squeeze the sponge into sept. will be difficult as my endurance drops with every week.
Last night 5*400 off 3min (62,63,62,62,62) so despite being tired after staying up late watching the olympics there is still some speed left and it wasnt eyeballs out. BMC 1500 on saturday ...not expecting big things but hopefuly tells me how far away i am
Tidy 400s there Dean.
Kenyan Hills session for me this morning. 3x 10 minutes with 90s recoveries. A while since I've done anything like that so wasn't really sure how I'd fare. 6:47 average pace for the first 10 mins and then 7:03 and 7:02 so not a ridiculous fade, just a bit quick off the first couple of inclines in the first 10 mins probably the difference. Good workout though.
Good week so far with the 6x 3 mins on Monday, 8 miler yesterday and then that today. Slow recovery few miles tomorrow planned and then track session Friday and longer hill run on Saturday.
I am thinking of targeting a 10k, probably around October, anyone recommend a fast race with a good field? I'd prefer it to be reasonably local but a big enough event to get up for it.
Contrary to the local preference and the October date, I was considering the Abbey Dash, is it worth the trip? I know Dachs and a couple of others may have done it.
Yes. Worth the trip.
Nice reps from Dean, SG etc.
Did a little rep session with LBAC Monday, then Luton last night was supposed to be 4 X 2k on the road plus a 1k to finish. Had dodgy guts so could only do 3 X 2k reps averaged about 6.45. Happy with the 3.00 dead for the 1k at the end though, only 4 secs off Ian K, although obviously done 2k less!
Nothing until 1500m at the SAL on Saturday, weather forecast is ridiculous, gale force gusty winds. FFS