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The Middle Ground
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Seems a long run for mara training Dan, not that I have any particular expertise in that area....
Sounds like some good running Hilly.
Sounds like a nice club session Hilly and a good ride Iron!
quite interested in dan's HR training. would this kind of training reap the same benefits for shorter distances or is it predominantly biased towards marathon-training? i like how the progress seems a given and is easily trackable.
personally, i feel in a similar situation to artist dan whereby my previous fitness seems to have taken an early hibernation but will knuckle down and try not to force things. have a 5.5 mile leg in the round-norfolk-relay at about 5 a.m on sunday and now having 2 days off although i am considering a scaled-back training run at parkrun on saturday. i'll see how i feel on the morning.
BR: didn't someone on here once say there were no prizes given in training? Just a thought!
Nice session, though, and Hilly, too: you both seem to be enjoying your running at present.
Have been asked which is the fastest Parkrun in South London: I know that this may have been discussed before...would it be Lloyds Park in Croydon?
Good morning! And a wonderful bright and brisk morning it is! Not for long so make the most of it... Such a lovely day yesterday I thought summer had finally arrived.
But so chilled this morning I remembered it was September.
3.5 miles early. Nothing else planned for the rest of the day. That feels so nice! Like a rest day. Tomorrow will be a single, longer run. Saturday morning footie is on, so parkrun is off. But then Sunday morning footie is off, so I might be able to plan something different this weekend. I usually miss too much of the nearby Food Festival due to other commitments, so a nice Saturday evening / Sunday of chomping on tasty treats washed down with perries that can get elephants drunk would make it special.
Loads of work today. So probably loads of posting here. Seeing as Cardiff HM won't be fast for me I'm going to experiment with the comfort factor of sleeping later and maybe having a snack breakfast for comfort, rather than winding myself up in knots about getting up four hours before and stuffing myself on porridge. I wonder what else I'll think up to distract myself from the tedium of design documentation?
BR/Hilly - Sounds like you enjoyed that one. I quit like the idea of self awarded trophies - it might be the only way I'll ever get one!
Curly - I'm sure you said you werent drinking.
Hope they have plentiful and strong coffee supplies at that conference. 
Alehouse - Lloyd Park would only be at the top of the list if you were holding it upside down! Its hilly and all grass. And just to make it a bit more challenging it was covered in 6 inch of snow when we did it. Oh yes, and I ended up on my arse half way around the first lap so that probably didnt help the time.
You're looking at Bushy (although with 850 doing it last week, getting towards the front end early might be advisable), Kingston (on a dry day), Richmond or Bromley for fast courses but, as we have said before, the time differences between different courses are usually only +/- 10 secs or so.
New date for the diary - I've decided to do a new parkrun on 29th Oct although it is dependent on a certain volcano not getting grumpy.
Yes it was a long'un ... but I was feeling good at 22 miles and so decided the confidence boost of going over-distance would compensate for the extra fatigue. I also knew I couldn't run for the next 3 days ... although hiking in the Lakes turned out to be just as hard. I confess that I was over-tired for a week once I returned and couldn't manage any MP sessions ... but in the big picture it has been beneficial. I'd do it again (without the hiking!).
Nice club session Brillys.
Dash - I felt my fitness levels had stagnated back in Feb/March, so went back to basics and started a long base phase in May. If I survive the marathon, I'm hoping to reap some benefits from it over shorter distances between November and Easter 2012. We shall see!
PRF ... you'll be considered as a Southerner at you planned Oct 29th parkrun.
Good session Brilly, sounds easier than I imagine it is!
Curly - tequila is drink of the devil, it never ends well!
DR - if you're meaning 3k/5k then overwhemlingly yes, basically any race distance with a hefty aerobic component will benefit hugely from HR training.
I'm heading out for 3M now before testing the club session waters tonight. It's going to be my first ever official double
(not counting 2M runs a few hours before races that is)
Dash - have a look at this doc - linky
Using HR is quite a good way to modulate effort, so in theory it can be used for any type of endurance training you just assign a HR zone and run at a pace that gets you into that zone. As you get fitter over time the pace should increase for the same HR or effort. The approach outlined in the doc linked is a good guide to base training I am going to use a that method in the early period of base when I am not sure of what paces to use as my fitness is unclear.
However when I have a few races under my belt I may revert to running to pace as I will know what MP, HMP Tempo pace etc is. I always record my HR even when not training to it, as it is useful for comparison and I like numbers and I am a geek
Duck – have been meaning to ask you this just keep on forgetting. When MD training does your approach to easy running change? Will you still have maintain the same type of structure to distance training, 1 LSR, 1 MLR, 2 quality sessions and easy runs in between? Does the volume of easy running drop and the pace increase to steady? Not thinking of taking it up just interested.
Sounds like a good run last night Brilly.
I didn’t get out until almost 8pm last night, but a very enjoyable 7miles was had once I did get out. I saw some nice HR/pace ratio numbers as well last night. It seems my fitness is coming back in the easier zone. Still a little grumbling from the calf muscles but nothing that isn’t manageable. I have my kit with me at work today, all being well I will get out for 5 or 6 miles at lunch, the weather is good today so I may as well make hay……
Alehouse - I always love running
Seriously had a few issues (medical) over the last couple of years that just took the edge off enjoyment at times, but as that is now under control the full enjoyment has returned, although still days I think oh not another run in the wind!
Duck - not easy at all. The idea of this kind of tempo session is also to increase the time over the coming weeks so start at 24-25 mins and work up to about 40 mins. Not sure if our club will increase to that, but I might do so and won't be looking forward to that I can tell you
YD - all sounding good on the calf and fitness front.
In all honesty from my limited exposure to MD training so far it seems there are a few philosophies that you can approach training from. Some like to keep the aerobic side to tempos/intervals etc and not have much 'filler' in between sessions.
I'm heavily influenced by, and am loosely following Arthur Lydiard's ideas. He said that winter base training should foucs almost entirely on aerobic running to push the aerobic ceiling up, due to anaerobic potential being genetically limited (aka what potential you have now is what you have for life), almost all future improvements in MD come from a larger aerobic base (which technically is unlimited) on top of a small (10-12 weeks) of 400-1500m paces reps. He termed this phase "marathon conditioning" and indeed some of his MD runnes (I'm talking 800m guys here) would actually run a marathon or two during this phase!
Now obviously I'm hardly going to go and enter Luton over winter, but the principles remain the same. I am heavily emphasising aerobic runner over winter so my base could be termed "marathon-lite". For the 12 weeks where my primary emphasis is aerobic fitness and pushing aerobic threshold up, I will indeed have 1 LR and 1 MLR per week (13/10 generally). Only one real big quality session per week (MP), with low-intensity form hills another and a very short basic speed track session of (initially) 10*100 @ 1500-800.
When it gets to the meat of the MD training (the last 3 months before competition), easy running volume will drop as the goal then isn't aerobic development but anaerobic development (also it's apparently not really possible to develop the two in tandem). Typically easy runs then won't be long, probably no longer than 5M recovery runs with a 75 min+ run once every 2 weeks or so to make sure aerobic fitness is maintained. Pace of runs won't be increasing during this time, either maintained or decreased to ensure I'm recovered from key sessions.
Hope that answered your question (in a very long-winded way)!
Hilly - 40 minutes.. I'm a hater of 20 minute tempos so I don't envy you! You should have seen my face when I learnt of sub-threshold (i.e. MP) tempos....
3M @ 9:08/m, felt fine so I shall see what happens tonight. No idea what will be going on at the session... although it's mixed ability apparently so I shouldn't be left behind!
In answer to my question then (if I have this right) your approach is much the same as it is now but with the emphasis switching to aerobic maintenance during your season, so in simple terms volume drops, intensity stays the same.
All very interesting stuff, I guess after base you ramp down through the intensity ranges (LT, VO2max etc....) until you are at specific race pace workouts?
The Calf issue is much the same as it was though I am trying to manage it, a bit of trial and error until I get the balance right I think. Glut strength and hip flexibility is increasing, so hopefully in time the calf problems will ease as other parts of the leg take up more strain when running.
Good luck tonight.
Duck - Interesting to hear your approach for next year. Hope your first club session goes well tonight.
YD - Are you still considering the Scarborough 10k at the end of October? I’m not running parkrun on Saturday now with the GNR the next day but I will be jogging down there and back to pick up my number from Kelly.
So I've decided to head out a 1:25 pace at the GNR and see what happens. It's a bit of a stab in the dark as I dont't know what shape I might be in. Just hope that doesn't overcook it and I end up hating those last 3 miles!
Mr V - 1:25 sounds good if you get a decent day for running.
YD - I think a regular long run was 22M that the Olympic-level New Zelanders did.
For base, you've essentially got it. 12 weeks of mileage + AE tempos, 4 weeks of hills, 4 weeks of LT, 8 weeks of VO2 max then 11 weeks of high-intensity track work. I keep some race pace all year round but for most of the year it's not stressful and never over 200m in length.
Mr V – I would like to run the Scarborough 10k but I will have to ask my legs closer to the date to see if they will let me. I suppose I should check out the closing date for entries so I know when to ask.
See you on Sat then, 1:25 sounds like a good plan for Sunday.
Interesting stuff Duck, I am looking forward to hearing what the boys and girls at Fife AC have you doing.
I have just completed 5.5 miles + some strides in the afternoon sun, quite a bit of it was off road and through the woods near work, lovely stuff. Rest day tomorrow to make sure I am fresh for Kelly’s sub 20 attempt on Saturday.
Nice plans ther Duck ... it will be interesting to watch it all unfold.
Good luck with the 1:25 pace Viper ... don't forget to build in some time to stop for a pint of Brown Ale at the drink stations.
Another repeat of the 8.7 mile route for me today ... this time at an intermediate effort/pace of 7:39/m at 77-78% maxHR.
Yep ... you can tell I'm fretting about it can't you!
At the moment I'm thinking that I might target 3:20 (7:38/m) ... but I'll slot in some MP into the later stages of Sunday's 24 miler to see how that feels.
nice 10 miler for me today (have decided against parkrun saturday) with the middle 8 averaging 6.52 and 161 HR. not sure what this exactly means at the minute but wasn't blowing from one's backside and might repeat this session over the next few weeks.
oh, and fickle as i am, i have decided i am not in as bad a way as i thought i was a couple of posts ago*
* warning. this is liable to change at any given time**
** most likely at about 6.00am on sunday morning
Ha Dash – no I don’t mind the geek ref.
If you are banging 6:52/mi out as part of a 10 miler without blowing from one’s backside there isn’t much wrong with your fitness at all*. As it happens 161 is about my MP HR, but that doesn’t mean its yours. If you want to use HR to train you need to get your maximum HR. Otherwise its just a random number.
* warning. this is liable to change at any given time especially if you develop this new condition I have discovered called tafkayd calf.
Dan - why don't you just run the sub 20 for me and I'll save myself the trouble
. Shame it wasn't Saturday today as it was absolutely perfect 5K conditions this morning.
Mr V - got everything sorted and have the race pack in my possession. He was most displeased when he discovered my middleman fee was a cake/chocolate bar
.
Dash - 8 miles at sub 1.30 pace?? Surely a good sign for GER, even though you don't consider yourself fully fit.
I haven't used my inhaler all week so I might use my HRM tomorrow - not to try to stick to a specific rate, just run how I usually run and see what the data says afterwards. I can easily see me avg 165 @ easy effort! I'm a freak though
.
Good track session done tonight, was pretty much the only one there doing middle distance so I did
3*400 in 68,69,68
2*150 both in 20.8 and finally
3*100 at 13.63,13.84 and 14.13.
Felt like quite a tough session but I enjoyed it and was quite pleased with my efforts.
Nice going Ironcedar, those 400s are flying!
Dan - 3:20 coincides with ~78% MHR or thereabouts? Sounds decent, I reckon you might be able to pick up the pace in the final 10k if you set off at that pace.
Kelly - right now I'm averaging 150 normally, over 10bpm higher than I normally do! It was fully expected though, if I take more than 3 days off my HR increases considerably, I know as soon as I start back training next week it'll be back down to 'normal' levels within 4 or 5 days.
So I had my first session with Fife AC tonight and it was pretty good. Essentially constant hill reps, with markers set out in a zig-zag along the hill. Hard up to the marker, slow recovery diagonally back down to the next, hard up to the top, diagonally down... you get the picture. Started off slowish to get into the swing of things and focused on form initially for the first 2 'circults' before upping the intensity. Surprised myself by being able to keep up with the quicker guys up the hills without killing myself, it showed in the recoveries though as they shot off while I jogged down quite slow!
Certainly didn't embarass myself though and I had a good chat to the coach after about their plans for the winter. Basically they focus on strength/stamina/speed over the winter, plenty of hills, dune running on the beach, shuttle runs on the sand etc, so in terms of building lower-body strength it's almost exactly what I'm looking for. Evenyone made me feel very welcome so I'll be marking Thursdays down in my diary as "club session" from now on
Sounds like a really good club session Duck. Interested to know more details about your plans for winter training between now next season...
I think tonight's session just goes to show that my time from Sunday doesn't reflect my current level of fitness.
Hi Duck - glad to hear it went well, interested to hear about the session tonight and the plans for winter. Have thety actually started on their winter programme yet - or was this a bit of an interim session tonight?
Our sprint-plus-a-few 400 - 800-blokes group have a month off in September then winter training (which I hate) kicks in seriously at the start of October.
I had a fairly serious long jump session tonight even though I am banned from the track at the moment. 4 sets of high knees walk then high knees jog through the sandpit in bare feet - forwards and backwards - was a bit of a killer. Hope my sprint coach doesn't find out.
Edit. I did do some jumping as well!
Iron - certainly looks that way... do you have any targets for next year?
My base is really nothing groundbreaking. It's a typical periodised, but condensed, year for a 5k runner (i.e. Aerobic Base -> Hills -> LT -> VO2 max). That's essentially me for the next 7 months. Then with 12 weeks to go I'll hit the MD-paced stuff in bulk.
Sharkie - why are you banned from the track? What've you been doing!?
The sandpit jog sounds intriguing. What's its purpose?
Speaking to the coach tonight, I think the winter programme's started now, however there are a few different groups of runners who train so it might depend on each group.
No, not really banned, just that we're not supposed to even go near a track for at least a fortnight never mind run on it. Chortle. Bad me.
I also played reverse hookey on Tuesday and sneaked a high jump session in...
It was you mentioning the dunes running that prompted me to post what I'd been up to. We occasionally run on the beach and up and down sand dunes - especially in winter.
I've never run through the long jump pit like that though. The LJ coach said it was great for leg strength and helped fire you up to jump. Had to keep the high knees high, the back straight - and not fall over running backwards. I'm quite good at backwards running (always do some in my dynamic warm up) it's a great and really does fire the glutes up.
I find running up the dunes pretty hard (who doesn't?) but I love runing down them. it's an advantage being quite light for that one.
I was extreme rubbsh at another new LJ exercise tonight but it will be cool when I master it. A sort of hanging lunge mid air!
a couple of things about yesterday's 8 miler.
firstly, and i don't know if this makes any sense or not, is that i seem to feel fit enough to have a go at a HM (whether i do myself justice remains to be seen)but not fit enough for a decent 5k. could there be any logic in this?
secondly, i did the session with alternate miles i.e 7.00m/m, 6.40, 7.00,6.30, 7.00, 6.20,7.00, 7.00 ish and from memory (you know the score AD)so when i do the HM at what pace should i be aiming for?
FWIW, i aimed for 7.00m/m in my only attempt thus far and recorded(i think) about 6.58 avg.