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The Middle Ground
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Sounds a good day out CB, sorry about the lack of running, hope you get some in soon so you can do yourself justice as Salford.
Dash, you didn’t take any persuading, you’re just an old lush
Agreed, proper times Alehouse. Leeds RLFC season ticket for me growing up (before they became Rhino’s!) 3pm every Sunday unless they got the Televised BBC Challenge Cup game on a Saturday!
Good work on the 2 hours of walking, sounds positive. As for the Marathon advice, starting to think you are right. Need to get healthy first, thinking about races is just getting ahead of myself.
YD - I know, I know.
Alehouse - Used to be a regular at Filbert Street myself as a kid, an occasional at Welford Road, and plenty of time at Grace Road during the summer too. We lived in Belton, Ashby and then Shepshed before moving to Notts. Lineker, Alan and Bobby Smith, Mark Wallington, Steve Lynex et al at City. Peter Wheeler, Dusty Hare, Paul Dodge and Les Cusworth for the Tigers. Nigel Briers, Phil De Freitas, Gordon Parson, Jonathon Agnew, Peter Willey and my favourite of the lot of them, the languid (the word might have been invented for him) David Gower for Leicestershire. Once saw Brian Davison take 39 off an over against Zimbabwe in a World Cup warm up in 1983. 6 x 6s off the first 6 balls, including a no-ball, and 3 from the final delivery of the over. Low key game, but as a 12 yo it was one of the most exciting things I'd seen!
And yes, different course yesterday - tactical switch, particularly with the rain late in the week, Rushcliffe (site of last week's 10k) is much quicker than Colwick.
Sub-40 in 9 months. That's mighty impressive, Dash. That and a sub-20 for the 5k feel like a way off at the moment, but both are certainly medium term aims. Long term lower than that I hope. Did I pick it up right that you're just working your way back from injury? Is that why your progress was halted? Oh...and yes, it takes some serious arm twisting for me to get rat-arsed as well - cough.
CB - Sounds like a crappy couple of weeks for you. Good that you got back out there today, and were able to pace your mate round to a decent time though.
So, 8.8 miles for me this morning, including about 2.5 with a mate who prefers his mountain biking but whom I'm trying to get into the running as well - he's lost 4 stone over the last year. He wisely declined the drag round the rowing lake at Holme Pierrepont - 16mph north-easterly and sleet like needles was not pleasant! The 'feels like' -4C the Garmin recorded was optimistic! Averaged 9 minute pace plus over the course of the run, including some slower stuff with my pal and into that wind, then picked up to about 8:50 with it at my back and on the way home. Enjoyed it on the whole, the pace felt easy throughout, and unlike my previous longest run at 7.6 miles, I could quite easily have gone another couple of miles I reckon. Have identified a bit of an issue with my mechanics I think that is probably causing my occasional calf grumbles, but more on that later. Nice big buffet curry for lunch to refuel.
Yes Bob, had an injury blighted year but the half-glass empty me (hic!) has an inkling that my current p.b's are as good as it gets. it just all seems a lot harder and we all have a ceiling of potential after all...but then again, I hope not!
As i'm fairly stupert (Norfolk for stupid) i have entered a 10k at the end of the month and will be flogging myself at parkrun this Saturday to test the water so to speak*
* the 'A' course has been flooded most of the winter!
Yup, YD, I have been getting miles in. For two weeks before heading out here the concentration was on the mid-week longs, as I knew my weekends were full. Plenty of 18 milers in those two weeks. This week I knew I wouldn't make the 18 milers, but saying that I hit 15 miles on the treadmill earlier today but there was no way I could restart the treadmill after the second stop (max 60 mins permitted then it goes to cooldown so you have to stop it and restart). So these two weeks are about miles rather than long runs, and I have managed 67 in 7 days, with only 3 on one day and no running on another. Suppose I could count some long walks as well - cross training, you know? Legs aren't feeling so bad right now. So tomorrow I'll try to get in a bit of shorter, sharper stuff in the morning before an easy in the evening. Plan for this week is simply more miles.
General plan is bringing up the MP miles over the next two weeks, with only the occasional sharper session. After that it's a week in the snow, so not quite sure how to deal with that other than I will be exercising about 6 hours a day. Just not running. Then it's three weeks to go, but because of the holiday I don't plan to taper for three weeks, I'll get in another week of mileage and MP before a two week taper in which I'll drop the miles quickly but keep some exclusively MP runs and go back to the sharper sessions with the club.
Note that because of the timetable it's really tough to fit in a down week, so I'm fitting in rest days instead. I'm not recovering as well as I used to, but I expect that the long term effect of all these miles will be better recovery in the future, as long as I can stay wise and note the bad days that call for a rest. Also, because of the timetable, I haven't raced! I think that's a bad sign - it feels like one and that's self-fulfilling. There haven't been any days where I've really taken my legs to the max and then had a couple of days recovery to build in the benefits. Last year's PBs at 10M and Half gave me great confidence to pace the Full. This year I don't truly know where I am. 3:05 prediction because of that - if I get it wrong I'll DNF.
Nice long again, Curly. You should try fuelling your way around one session, just to test the difference.
CB, get those reports sorted!
Not worth the sacrifce for loss of fat burning adaptation at this stage. I will eat porridge on M day four-five hours before the race though because I have to travel and I get travel sick without food. I dont intend to use any gels or energy drinks though, but I do reserve the right to change my mind when out there!
Sounds like you have dealt with the disruption of work very well indeed during this build up - just demonstrates that when you think laterally there are ways around scheduling issues for marathon training that dont involve furman
40 down, 60 to go. Averaging 15 mins per report, so I make that 15 hours over the next 4 evenings. No worries!
prf and Phil have gone and got all Justin Beiber on us……..
Bob calf issues can be expected when you first start out. Might be a good idea for you to get into the habit of stretching and doing a bit of core work now. Get some good habits while you are new to this game.
Nice work on the longest run.
Good to see how you get on at parkrun next week Dash!
Time is getting on Ratzer as you say. MP work is good, what about threshold (one hour pace ) runs? They are good for getting you to a peak IMO? I had planned on doing a couple closer to M day
Urgh CB
Always something good thrown up by the weekend's parkrun - great to see Wardi hitting some consistency with the sub-20s and BBB with what I'm sure will be one of a string of PBs.
YD - Not really sure that to say about the mara situation at the moment, partly because you're being as philosophical about things as ever but also because it doesn't seem to be entirely resolved yet?? Fingers crossed anyway...
Curly - Nice run. I think your Brighton cake is well and truly baked. Now what goes on top - was it icing or toothpaste?
I'll start off my report on the National Duathlon champs by letting BBB down; a sub-16 5k at the end of 2 hours of racing would certainly be worth getting excited about but the Garmin measured it at 4.32km! Starting at the beginning, however... we went off in four waves according to different age groups (which made knowing where you were in the race pretty impossible by the bike leg) and I lined up almost next to The Chef.
We weren't together very long; he edged off on the (genuine) 10k run about 5-6s/km quicker, and I settled about 10-12 places back (of two waves; 35-39 and 40-44). This was dead flat but with some annoyingly muddy grass sections which my Saucony Fastwitch weren't very keen on. Fairly pleased to get back to transition in 34:46.
T1... The run had given me a false sense of body warmth, so I decided to try and get away without wearing gloves for the bike. Quicker transition, innit. BIG mistake. A third of the way through the 43k ride my fingers were already going numb and even changing gear was hard work. At some point I realised what national level duathlon competition means - enough bike bling to clear the national debt and quite a few stronger riders than me! How many of the guys overtaking me might be 40+ it was difficult to tell at this stage... but by 43k I was almost beyond caring. Felt f*cking dreadful - too much mental energy worrying about frostbite and not enough effort going into the legs. (This is not to say I didn't overtake a fair few bling-mobiles from the first wave though!) Bike: 1:10:56
T2... Lo and behold, second transition was a little longer than it should have been because my fingers were completely numb and I struggled to get the running shoes back on. Ugh! Eventually got going and felt predictably sluggish, but still managed to maintain my usual pattern in duathlons of having a relatively strong second run. (Was actually a little slower pace than the first, but a much smaller drop-off than the average.) Running fast after racing 43k on a bike really is a strange and horrible experience, but I guess that's half the art of the discipline. I'm pretty sure I made up a few places I'd lost on the bike. "5k" (haha!): 15:51.
Scores on the doors: Finish time: 2:04:40, 51st overall (/620), 11th in age category (/89). The Chef was 11th, 3rd V40 and 7 minutes ahead of me. (Winning time - i.e. national champion - 1:54:12; first female: 2:06:49... just for comparison, like
)
Mixed feelings; I thought I might be a little higher up the rankings, but in hindsight the field was simply a LOT stronger than I was expecting. It was the national champs, I guess! I raced reasonably well, certainly the runs were well paced. A few schoolboy errors in transition, and can't help thinking I could have done better on the bike, but it really was a bloody nightmare in that weather. I'm such a wuss! (And I won't dwell on blaming tools, but a serious TT bike and a pointy hat probably are genuinely worth a good couple of minutes, if I was going to make a habit of this sort of thing.) No one who finished after me ran quicker in either of the runs, which obviously tells you where my bias is, and what I can most improve upon.
Questions to ponder... have I done enough to qualify for the World champs? (Not automatically, but still a good probability from what I understand of the system.) Would I still want to do it anyway? (Probably... does anyone want to sponsor my flights and accommodation?
) Am I going to make a habit of this duathlon business? (Hmmm... it dawned on me that the major events will always be scheduled during the triathlon
...off-season, when it's too cold to swim. *shudder*)
Anyway, put the bike away. On with marathon training!
sounds a good performance Phil, you just don't stop do you!
Glad you pointed out the short course on the 5k bit. Irritatingly the wife of an old rival at my old club suggsted (quite ludicrously) that he'd set a 26 sec 5k pb despite the earlier stages.
i thought it was quite well known that the running sections can be pretty dodgily measured at these events sometimes!
It's almost like they do it deliberately to massage triathletes' egos!
The "5k" followed the same route as the 10k, but with the turning-point cone in a different place!
I'm sure the chap knows himself...runners know there's no benefit from false claims, and if anything you're on a hiding to nothing next time out to match it!
Good luck with the parkrun and the later 10k, Dash. If you can get to sub-40 in 9 months, there must be plenty more under the bonnet to tap into with an extended, uninterrupted and injury free bout of committed training I'd have thought.
I hope you're right about the calf, YD, and that's certainly been my thought up until now. What's making me wonder though, is whilst I've been quite bloke-ish in admiring the changes in body shape of the upper half of my body as I get in and out of the shower since I kicked the lard and got into decent shape for the first time in my life, I'd not really paid much attention to the legs, but looking down yesterday, it occurred to me that one thigh is considerably more developed than the other. I mentioned earlier in the thread I think that I had to give up football due to a badly ripped quad, and as the bread knife pointed out when I mentioned it to her earlier, it is that thigh that is underdeveloped. Measured it tonight and its circumference is over an inch less than the other. Seems my right leg is doing a disproportionate amount of the work I guess, and it is that calf which is causing me problems. Will try to be aware of that in my running this week, and try to be more balanced, but it's probably something worth having checked out? I've been reading about pronation as well this week - all new to me, but probably worth looking at that too. Has anyone tried and got any thoughts on the home tests, or should I just get myself off to somewhere like Sweatshop and get it done properly? I could do with some proper running shoes anyway for the better weather when it eventually arrives - doing all my running in trails at the moment.
I've been working quite hard at the stretching by the way - static after my running, and dynamic stretching before and after. Definitely more I can do on the core work though - still just press ups and sit ups at the moment. Somebody mentioned planking and I looked into it, but the coupe of links I Googled made it sound a bit complicated. Are they worth pursuing? Anything else anyone can recommend, particularly bearing in mind the aforementioned weaknesses? Got a feeling the glutes are probably trailing behind in their development, so they might be worth some work.
Phil –as a fellow Raynaud’s sufferer I winced reading about the bike leg without the
gloves. No wonder your mind wandered!
Still a bloody good effort considering, the run legs especially. Fingers crossed for qualification.
It's almost like they do it deliberately to massage triathletes' egos!
Made me laugh that
Bob –planks are good and are not complicated, just go on youtube for an example.
Yes work on your glutes, my physio says soft glutes are keeping him in business!
To strengthen do – lunges front and back, glute bridge and knee drops. For the knee drops round the bottom of your back to make sure the glute is engaged, I do this by taking a big breath and then a big exhale, you don’t want the quad to take the weight.
As for getting checked out, maybe, depends how much cash you are prepared to spend and how worried you are about the imbalance? It might right itself the more you run, I dont know.
My advice would be keep your hips and quads limber, do some glute strengthening and some more general core work and that will go a fair way to protecting you.
As always, it takes some catching up on here;
Curly - That stamina must be coming along nicely with the way you're knocking out these regular long runs. What are your expectations for Brighton at this stage, now that you have a fair bit of the training under your belt?
Phil - Congratulations on the 4.32k PB
Position wise the overall performance looks impressive for the National Champs. I would ask what the qualification criteria is for the Worlds but I have a suspicion it is going to be too complicated for my limited brain power 
Wardi - Excellently judged sub 20, especially on Saturday when conditions were far from perfect.
The weekend went pretty well for me with a first 17:xx of the year, 17:54 at Hull parkrun and then a good strong run at Spen 20 yesterday with a relaxed first half and then a second half at 2:50 marathon pace.
Copying from the blog:
The idea for this race was to start breeding some marathon confidence and, as such, what was intended was to take the first half of this very hilly 20 miler steadily, ie no faster than 70 mins, and then start upping the effort level over the second half but without feeling like I was hanging on for the finish. Something around 65 minutes, or 2:50 marathon pace, would be ideal for the second half.
The first half was run with John Broom and felt very comfortable in 1:12:29 (7:15/mile).
From the 10 mile marker it was then time to starting asking the legs some questions and seeing how they responded. Suffice to say, I was a little taken by surprise at just how well they did respond. Following the 10th mile in 7:12, the tough 11th was covered in 6:09! I was expecting something around 6:20-6:30, but it was feeling good so there was no real concern that there was going to be a price to pay for this acceleration.
The remaining miles were ticked off in 6:30, 6:31, 6:20, 6:25, 6:37, 6:59, 6:59, 6:35, 6:17.
The two 6:59s were slowed quite significantly by a freezing wind picking up strength on the top of the moor, so an overall second half of 1:05:33 (6:33/mile) was very pleasing.
The last part of the plan of not feeling as though I was hanging on for the finish was also achieved to the point that, if push came to shove, a 42 minute 10K could probably have been tagged on the end to complete a sub 3 marathon today. Off such a steady start that is a really nice position to be in 6 weeks out from VLM
If anyone comes across that WAVA table I might have a bit of an improvement to stick in there
Nice work, PRF, and your wish is my command!
MIDDLE GROUND WAVA LEAGUE (December-March) Calculator here:http://www.howardgrubb.co.uk/athletics/wmalookup06.html
85.79% PhilPub (10k, 33:07, February)
82.34% Hilly (10M, 66:45, December)
79.26% Duck (60m, 8.1, December)
78.16% SG (HM, 75:41, February)
77.86% PRF (10K, 38:12, February)
77.35% Wardi (5K 19:52 March)
77.08% YD (10K, 35:24, February)
73.84% Curly45 (5K 20:03, February)
69.98% Dr.Dan (10M, 69:42, February)
68.82% Young Pup (5k, 19:59 March)
63.15% BBB (10k, 45:40, March)
59.56% CB (10K, 46:20, December)
57.16% Alehouse (5K 27:49 March)
Need to add one back in:
BR, Simon, Ratzer, Dash, dav3c, RobT, Minni, MrV
Cheers Alehouse
Nothing like a bit of Duck and Stevie leapfrogging to start a Monday off on the right note
MIDDLE GROUND WAVA LEAGUE (December-March) Calculator here:http://www.howardgrubb.co.uk/athletics/wmalookup06.html
85.79% PhilPub (10k, 33:07, February)
82.34% Hilly (10M, 66:45, December)
79.83% PRF (5K, 17:54, March)
79.26% Duck (60m, 8.1, December)
78.16% SG (HM, 75:41, February)
77.35% Wardi (5K 19:52 March)
77.08% YD (10K, 35:24, February)
73.84% Curly45 (5K 20:03, February)
69.98% Dr.Dan (10M, 69:42, February)
68.82% Young Pup (5k, 19:59 March)
63.15% BBB (10k, 45:40, March)
59.56% CB (10K, 46:20, December)
57.16% Alehouse (5K 27:49 March)
Need to add one back in:
BR, Simon, Ratzer, Dash, dav3c, RobT, Minni, MrV
BBB - I think YD's covered most of it. I do squats, lunges and bridges as part of my twice-weekly core routine, which I'm sure target the quads/glutes more than running, so would be good for muscle balance generally. I'd also recommend other cardio that targets quads, to complement the running - most obviously cycling, and also the indoor rower.
prf - That's a cracking effort! I shouldn't be surprised but you seem to have quietly turned into a veritable endurance machine. 2:50 marathon pace, eh?
Worlds qualifying is quite simple really.
There are 20 slots available for each age group (35-39, 40-44...) Some people pre-qualify (last year's national champ, etc), then there are three qualification races, of which Saturday's was the first. First 4 in each race automatically qualify, so a max of 12 from these slots, then the left-over slots are allocated on a "roll-down" basis. You're ranked according to your time as a proportion of the winning (age group) time in your race, but must be no more than 115% of the time. (My time = winner + 6%.)
Of 15 guys registering intent to qualify so far, 11 of us raced on Saturday; only 5 were in the 10 ahead of me, so I beat 5. The big question-mark at the moment would be how many entrants in the other two qualifying races have yet to register their intent to qualify. (They're on 23rd March and 14th April and you have to register by the Friday before the race.) I think there are two things in my favour at the moment: 1. Saturday was the national champs, so it would be nice to think the fields would be less stacked, and fewer people within 6% of the winning time; 2. Ottawa is a bloody long way, and not everyone who qualifies will want to take up the place. It's still looking like an expensive holiday option though.
Bob – Agree with YD glutes (along with your core) should be a priority if you are going to spend time strengthening.
PRF – Coming up to the boil nicely now. I’m taking notes for my autumn campaign
Phil – Sounds like an impressive performance and fingers crossed you manage to qualify.
Razter – Good effort on those mammoth treadmill sessions – rather you than me!
I decided not to increase my mileage this week. In fact I ended up doing slightly less with around 42 miles. I really didn’t want any setbacks with Portugal looming this week. That did however encompass 3 consecutive days totalling 31 miles so the injury isn’t troubling me too much now.
My physio wants me to avoid working my quads too much, he told me to avoid cross training that will strengthen the quads i.e. cycling. He said to me that I have quite big quads and he doesn’t want me unbalancing my legs more by building my quads up. Now not suggesting that is right for you Bob, but just sharing…..
We spent quite a bit of time getting the technique right so that I isolated and engaged my glutes as much as possible when doing knee drops and other more specific exercises I am doing. I am not currently doing lunges or bridges as they are too general for my current situation, but I expect to get back to them in time.
Another thing to consider is your adductor muscles, like glutes they can become soft and under utilised. Again go on youtube there is loads of stuff on there for you to try. To make adductor excersises effective you need to isolate the muscle as much as possible.
Excellent news on the injury Mr V!
I know you had some physio and he had you doing glute work, does the above tally with the kind of things he was telling you?
Looking good for qualification then Phil. If you qualified would you spend the money on a fancy Tri Bike? Could turn out expensive with the trip to Canada!
YD – Yep sounds very similar to what mine has me doing. Like your physio he says runners often don’t have strong enough glutes or don’t engage them properly letting other areas take the strain. On the positive side of things working on them should improve performance as well as injury proofing. I guess it makes sense if you are not using one of your main running muscles properly you are not going as fast as you could be.
Some good reports
Phil ouch!!! You need to get some of Gobi's heated gloves perhaps for bike legs? Overall though, well done and its nice to feel there were improvements to make next time even without further training. Winner + 6% in the national champs is amazing!
PRF so got your trophy back in safe hands now then?
Sounds like a really promising run round a very tough course... looking for a 2:45 then?
I'm in the middle of having the target disucssion with Moraghan right now - he is thinking on the conservative side so 3:20-3:24, ideally I'd like to go for something a bit faster...we'll wait and see who wins that debate...
Cant believe I have nearly 74% and am the bottom of the 70s
Stop improving you lot I cant keep up!
Mr V thats very positive indeed! Have a great time and hopefully some lovely warm weather.
Dash I'd agree - you've got loads of potential yet to crack once you are back out there consistently again.
YD I have big quads too, but luckily I only cycle in low gear and keep the turnover fast - they havent got any worse from cycling, in fact have got slightly smaller (more toned). Cycling up hills or with too much resistance is what causes cycling thighs I think...Phil may correct me of course!
Curly – I actually suggested to my physio that I maintained fitness by cycling on the flat in a low gear. But he said in my situation it’s not worth it as he doesn’t think I will be out for long, so there will be no major loss in fitness and the downsides are the potential imbalance in the quads.
If this injury persists I will have to work something out to maintain fitness.
Mr V – yep my thinking as well, engaging the whole set of muscles has to be better!
MrV - Good news!
YD - Interesting advice from the physio re quads. I work on the assumption that running over-develops the calves and hamstrings relative to quads, so exercising the quads is good for balance. I guess it's down to the individual though, especially when a professional has first-hand experience.
Curly - That looks like a tasty target already, but can I assume you might have half an eye on a Champs qualifying time? That would be pretty serious stuff.
I think you're sort of right re: cycling thighs, but it comes down to pure power/sprint vs. endurance, and the individual's pre-disposition towards either one or the other. Compare, for example, Bradley Wiggins, who has cycled up more hills than I've had hot dinners:
...with Sir Chris Hoy:
(Or much like the contrast between a sprinter and a marathon runner.) In other words, I wouldn't worry too much about leg muscles bulking up from cycling as long as it's aerobic efforts.
Weak glutes always seem to come up in injury chats don't they. It's as if runners know hamstrings are important to keep in shape, but forget glutes are at least as important.
I follow all physio stuff to the exact letter, although one once told me to run more with the glutes than the hamstrings....wasn't quite sure what that meant!?
YD - I'd love to get a proper TT bike, but don't know if I could justify the outlay, especially with the cost of the trip. Will have to see how business goes over the next few months, and how generous people are feeling around my birthday.
Indeed you can Phil but I think its out of reach this time to be honest...
Hoys thighs are scary, but I wouldnt mind those skinny calves Wiggo has!! May have to cry off cycling to work today though jeepers its windy out
Curly - just agree with him and then do what you want on race day
You may feel frustrated if at the end you think you could have achieved a championship time, but when it comes to the marathon, it is easy to pay the price by starting a little too fast. Stepping stones and all that. Of course you realise this is coming from a do as I say, not as I do, point of view
You are in the best shape of your life and I think you could get a great time off your HM, but we all know the marathon can be cruel. I think you will nail it though, you deserve it.
Y D - Thirsk should be good. I'm still way off form, but after a long XC season and a long lay off last year, I'm really looking forward to a bloody good road race. I'll be going for a pb, but it is almost by default/technicality as it is so old (2009).
I have the BMAF XC Champs this Saturday and unfortunately the last harrier league XC next sat. I could have done without that the day before Thirsk, but looks like we'll win the division and I've done all the others, so I should show up. As I'm still running with a handicap, I'll be nowhere near being a counter, so it doesn't matter how I run it. Thank god I'll be back with the main pack next season!
I've entered a fair few races over the next few months and I'm quite excited about it. I've been knocking out some fair sessions lately, but the pace still feels harder than it should.
Snow and arctic, freezing wind this morning. The magic type that was against me every time I rounded a bend. I'm so over the weather!!!