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The Middle Ground
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Morning all
6 miles yesterday with 8x200m. Paces 2 sec/mile faster than last week. Not as much improvement as I was hoping for but it was the first time I've donned the Hattoris since injury.
3 gentle miles this morning followed by 30 mins core. Now procrastinating. I love study leave!
TR – Are you getting twitchy yet!? Looking hopeful that it might not be so hot by Sunday. I’ve got a friend who is running - also as his first marathon. His 5k pb is 2 seconds quicker than me and his 10k is 1 second slower. So I’m really interested to see what he does as a potential guide for what I might be able to do!
Dan – What’s your next target going to be once you are back to full training. Another mara?
Chubby – Still ticking along nicely there.
DT – Did you say you’d had your first coaching schedule through. What kind of stuff has he got you doing? Lot’s of threshold stuff at a guess?? Have you managed to discuss expectations regarding races etc with him?
After tomorrow night’s 10k I’m going to have to give some thought to my next block of training. Essentially I want to move from 5/10K training and start to think about half marathon training. I might stretch things out for another couple of weeks and have 1 or 2 more goes at doing a quick parkrun time first. I’d like to try and do something in the region of 17.15 before upping the mileage and having heavy legs all the time! Anyone got any ideas on how I should approach this? I’ve really neglected hills and am noticeably weak in this area so certainly want to work on my strength a bit. And obviously threshold work is important as well. Thing is I’m quite keen to make this a clear break from my last phase of training on the basis of avoiding doing too much of the same thing.
cb, still nice steady ticking along.
Mr V, i have simply told him what races im doing and he has made no comment in response. There is an emphasis in the first 2 weeks on threshold and a small interval session but with specific refernce to using undulating terrain. Im nmot sure if that is specifically targetted to me as i have told them it is a big weakness or whether it is part of their system?
DT – I tended to have 3 sessions a week. Two key ones during the week on the flat and then a supplementary one on a Saturday on undulating terrain. He was just starting to introduce hill sessions when I quit. So it may partly depend on time of year/ what your current plans are. Do you have 3 sessions a week on your schedules?
Yes. So this week is a short and long easy run, a cross training session (cycle) various core and strength drills to do whenever then 3 quality. One is flat threshold, one is undulating threshold and the other is a small interval session in a steady run over undulating terrain.
It seems a lot but when you look at volume, only sundays run is longer than 1 hour.
On the point of the training, ive just done the first session which was 6 x 5 min at threshold off 90 secs, which i appreciate ws never going to be long enough to really push me to the edge. I did this one on tmill simply because there are only a certain number of nights i can get out training so have to do certain runs at lunchtime. I thought this was better treadmill fodder than an undulating threshold session. Anyway... i tend to use the same treadmill each time and did so throughout mara training. I did it at 6.38 pace and it barely moved beyond the higher end of comfortable/steady effort wise. I really think i have some kind of problem with racing at the minute in that my race times are starting to come out the same as or slower than what is a reasonable effort in training.
Yep, I need to get the marathon monkey off my back, as I've never come near to doing one any justice based on training. Probably Dublin ... maybe Nottingham too. But I'll see how the next month goes first before I commit.
Good luck with your 10K!
DT maybe you've got a virus? My running has been pretty mediocre for the last month and it's probably due to a low level bug or something. It showed up in my blood tests. If I wasn't running I wouldn't have noticed anything wrong apart from having a slightly sore throat. (I got the blood tests for other reasons not because I can't hit my training paces!)
TR good luck for the marathon! What will you be wearing? I'll be on my bike along with my OH, he'll be shouting really annoying motivational slogans at the runners. Conditions look ideal, you should have a tail-wind all the way and it's pretty chilly.
Good luck with the 10K MrV. Hopefully everything will fall into place...
Looks like an interesting program DT. Hopefully the racing will come as the good training sessions stack up.
6.7 mile club run tonight in the rapidly greying sky.
Progress was always going to taper out CB, still it’s progress!
Mr V - many different ways to approach hills.
First things first, do some form hills, find a longish shallow incline and do a few 400m reps uphill concentrating on exaggerated running form, high knees etc no where near flat out effort though, this is a quality workout but you should finish feeling there is loads left in the tank...This will help with strength and is a gentler introduction to hill work.
Once you have a few of those sessions under your belt, move onto good old fashioned hard hills or hill sprints. Start with 10 x 200m on a steeper hill, running very hard with a jog back down recovery. A bit of VO2max in there but gives your legs plenty of hammer and more pep. 4 or 5 of these sessions progressing to 12 reps will certainly help bring you on.
Also consider longer hill reps, find a long hill at least half a mile long and do an interval session on it. Depending on the length of the hill but something like 10 x 0.5m or 6 x 6 mins on a shallow long uphill stretch will give you a good aerobic workout as well as a strength component. I did a couple of these early in my Mara campaign and it really brought on my stamina. Helps with the standard longer interval and tempo session later on as well.
Another thing to do is maybe find a hilly circuit and do the odd Kanyan hill session in place of a tempo run for a bit of variety. Or just do a tempo run on a hilly route and dont worry about the pace just get into the habit of running to feel.
If you feel hill work is missing in general from your plan, no reason why you cant start with the form hills now. They wont take much out of you between races and you can move onto the harder workouts once the racing period is up.
As for HM workouts, I think threshold work is the most important session you can run for a half. But that's another discussion.
DT - first thought was, is the treadmill giving you a correct reading? If the effort is easier in training for the same pace as in a race then maybe the treadmill is wrong?
If thats not the case, is it a mental thing, do you choke on race day? Is it nerves, or do you have an alternative theory?
I have no idea btw, just throwing a few thoughts out there.
velloo - green Adidas trainers, white socks, black shorts with a dark blue stripe down the side and Thirsk and Sowerby Harriers vest which is yellow with a blue band across the chest, as per my avatar. It’s an awful look but it’s comfortable. I shall look forward to the motivational slogans!
Oh and we are going to the Gurkha Bar and Restaurant in Musselburgh for a meal on Sunday night, it had god reviews online, do you know it? Either way I reckon Curry and Beer will taste delicious after 26.2!
6.4miles with 10 x 100m strides on the grass track at the local school. Strides all came in at or just below 17 seconds and felt pretty relaxed as well. Though the easy miles around the strides were a chore, I have been cutting back on carbs for a few days to ensure I don't put any weight on and felt sluggish for it.
No niggles so far, so I reckon heavy legs is my flavor of taper madness
The Gurkha is really good, been there a couple of times, initially misread your post and thought you were bravely going on Saturday!
Time to carb up, you'll need extra body fat to keep you warm if the weather is like today. Good luck!
Tr, that's useful stuff re hills.
I really don't know. The treadmill I was on today I did a few tempos in Mara training on and remember thinking it must be calibrated fast as it was tough. However they may have switched them around or it may have lose some zip in last few months. I have a similar session next week so will switch machines and see how it feels.
Otherwise no real clue. I feel like I've lost my determination/desire in races. As soon as I see its not going to be a pb I decide there's no point sucking it in as there will be another day soon. I spoke with coach on it and he thinks I peaked in September and mentally justified that block of training but never then kicked on. Effectively when you pursue a block of training you want to proive to yourself its working so dig deeper. Who knows!
Vello, I think that's also likely.I started with cold symptoms on Xmas eve. I then had back to back two of the worst colds I've ever had over Feb and march. It was only when I was on holiday that I finally stopped feeling coldy, some five months later.
Afternoon all
DT, sounds like your legs might be needing a break! Just not having the strength to push on might be residual fatigue even if you feel recovered.
WJH... forget about the 10k, look forward. The year isn't even half done yet!
cb, great progress, that is a huge amount especially over a 5k.
Mr V - half marathon training. A tricky one to crack I think. Do you approach it as a short marathon or a long 10k?
I personally would look at a block of "marathon-lite" training to begin with:
Base - 2hr + long runs, plenty of bulk easy mileage, alternate decent-length tempo with hills for strength. Just to get some general long distance conditioning.
Build - Long tempos (60 mins+) for strenght - as part of long runs or stand alone. Almost pMP for instance. The odd shorter tempo around LT or short 10kp reps. Looking to get as strong as possible over long distances.
Build - Focus on 10kp stuff, the odd 5k session for some speed.
Peak - Tempos at HMP - build to ~ 10k in length. Fast long runs for stamina. A bit of 10k/5kp work for some speed.
So I'd approach it as both a short marathon and a long 10k - at different times. Would be interested to hear other's approaches, I think it's one of those distances that can be approached from a few angles.
So after Sunday I am now heavily into the track & speed endurance. Recovered well off Sunday but took Monday off. Went down the track last night to take part in the club track championships (#2) and do a mini session too:
2M warmup (progressive, drills, strides, usual stuff)
800m race in 2:10.5 (felt easy, 64/66).
15 mins rec
10*200 w/60s rec. In lane 5, got the distance of rep #1 wrong as I started in the wrong place!
36.3
30.9
30.3
30.1
30.5
29.9
30.1
29.9
30.4
30.2
This left me flat on my back at the side of the track. Missed this stuff!
Then ran the 20 minutes home (got a lift down).
Form went out the window today. Aiming for 4 x 5 mins (3 mins rest). Binned halfway through the second effort - it wasn't happening. Pain in lower left stomach and beginnings of a stich in my right rib. Pace was down to the same pace that I cruised round Saturday's parkrun at.
It puts me in a bit of a dilemma for Friday's race. I was planning on aiming for 6:40 pace, but now think that might be too ambitious. Toying with either aiming for sub 7:00 pace for a 21:30 ish solid run or running by feel and hoping that my instinct over the first 800m isn't too bad!
Chubby – Definitely instinct!
TR – Good info re hills. Last night’s further convinced me of my current weakness in this area so I’m certainly going to include some of this stuff.
Duck – Thanks, that’s really helpful. Sounds a sensible approach. I’m also mindful that I’ll have a mara relatively soon after so need to ensure I can get round!
DT – Maybe worth getting some bloods done at the docs. Perhaps you could be low in something? Might also be worth ditching your watch in the next couple of races. Take the pressure off and see what happens.
A bit of a strange race last night. Went into it expecting to run really well but ended up with a disappointing time. Given the undulating nature of the 2 lap course I decided not to worry about splits and just race it. Felt ok in the first half though rather struggled up the never ending, albeit pretty gentle, hill (about 1.25 miles). There were a couple of local rivals just ahead both of who I would expect to run a mid 36 time so I was happy to keep them in sight and try and work back to them. Felt good on the downhill and flat sections and went through the end of lap 1 feeling good. It was hard work on the second hill and looking at my splits afterwards I lost a good 20 seconds on this mile compared to first time round – definitely some hill work in training required! Despite this no one was really coming past and I was more or less level with my 2 rivals. After the big hill it was nice to cruise downwards and recover. Still had to dig deep in the final mile. I was ahead of both rivals now though one was still sitting just behind. He tried to get me in the finishing straight though I managed to muster a rather pathetic sprint finish and just hold him off. Given the guys I had beaten I figured I’d have run a decent time so was rather disappointing to see a 37.21 on the watch. No real reason to think times would be down today so perhaps all 3 of us were just below par!
what I have read re race distances is that people naturally pitch 5 and 10k together and half and full mara together when in fact the two most comparable distances are are 10k and half. When running at best there is only about 6-8 secs between my 10k and hm pace. I would have thought the two key sessions are ensuring your longer run is built up to 14-15 miles (so about 2 hours) and some longer threshold sessions.
I think sometimes mr v you have to look at whose around you and not the watch.
Duck- looks like a lung busting ession there, especially after an 800m race.
CB- Dont forget, in race conditions paces will feel a bit different.
Decent session for me yesterday. It was down as 40 mins steady undulating with a 1,2,3,2,1 effort in the middle. Ive got a decent enough 6 mile loop where much of the first 4.5 miles is undulating in an upwards direction. Anyway... i got a bit carried away with the session and turned it into a threshold with some intervals. I was surprised the pace i could hold working on an incline. My splits were
7.03 (trying to stick to the plan) 6.52, 6.30, 6.45, 6.29.
My ave hr over that was 170. Normally in a race im about 185.
That sort of tells me there is very little wrong with me bearing in mind the route profile and the fact that i didnt fall over in a mess in the end. I think I am just getting races wrong.
Not quite what the schedule had planned, but i think a useful exercise nonetheless.
Mr V - possibly you all thought that you were running with people that are capable of a certain time so thought you were doing OK timewise?
Duck great session off the back of an 800.
DT looks like a good session. Hopefully you'll get your head round races soon.
3 miles and a core workout this morning.
We seem to have lost a few posts somewhere?
I've killed the thread!
Christleton 5k last night. I had a bad build up - I chose the wrong route to get there and ended up in all the traffic heading to North Wales for the bank holiday. Quick reroutes meant I got there 35 mins before the start, still time for a 3 mile warm up and some stretches. I hadn't allowed for the 15 minutes it would take to get my number and chip!
So a revised 2.5 mile warm up with strides, some stretches on the start and I was ready for a 5 minute delay! I could have got the full warm up in anyway.
They had posts up for different pace groups this year after an accident on the start last year caused (I believe) by a 20 min runner thinking he could start with the big boys. The posts were sub16, sub 18, sub 20, sub 22. It must have been intimidating for a 26 min runner! I slotted in at sub 22.
I set off and tried to settle into a comfortably hard pace. When I checked my garmin I was on 6:40 pace, which was dream pace for this race a week ago. It felt OK so I decided to stick with it. Conditions were perfect. Little wind, a slight on and off drizzle, and lots of people around who all seemed to gradually slow during the race. After the first half mile I was only overtaken by 2 people and must have passed about 100.
Mile splits were 6:41, 6:43 and 6:40 with a final effort to bring me in at 20:29 by my watch. This is 55 seconds faster than anything I achieved last year, and only 14 seconds away from my PB. Considering I've only been up to 40 miles weeks for 2 weeks, and only been injecting pace in training for 4 weeks, I'm over the moon, and really believe that sub 20 will be achievable at the Sale Sizzlers in July.
What posts have been lost?
Great run cb, nice even splits. Looks like you will be coming back stronger.
Just a rest day Thursday then spin last night. Needed it as had done a few speedy sessions in succession. I have a hilly 8 miles with 3 x 8 mins at threshold today. Hoping the rain clears through a bit as currently hammering down.
DT19 I don't fancy your session, hope it went well.
I ran the first few miles of the Edinburgh marathon course this morning, the sodding wind has changed direct, usually there is a prevailing westerly wind but's a north east wind for the next couple of days. That means a headwind, particularly along the exposed coastal part of the route, for the bulk of the race. I hope you are feeling strong TR.
Good luck tomorrow Tr.
Nice little session just. Managed to avoid the rain. I ran the local 10k course route for the tempo part which is about 7k up and 3k down. I didn't quite know where each 8 min block would leave me. The first two were pretty much up hill and came out 6.43 and 6.50. The third one I hit the downhill part of course from start so decided to ignore pace and concentrate of Hr of about 170. That came out 6.23 mm for Hr of 167 so clearly could have gone a bit faster.
I'm quite enjoying this faster stuff now. I think a major mistake I made was about 10 months ago I took all my quality work off the roads to track and treadmill and I've lost strength etc from doing that, then in marathon training I took the stuff I was doing on the roads to flat routes.
Nice run CB, reward for your recent efforts in training. Those targets sound good as well, challenging but achievable, you never know you might smash them again.
Mr V - sounds like a good race the other night, you beat local rivals. That is a good run in my book.
velloo - conditions look pretty grim for tomorrow, I ran on the course for three miles this morning and it wasn't great into the wind. Oh well, I feel ready for it, fitness is good, carb load seems to have gone ok, the bloated feeling of this morning has now gone. The only thing to do now is run well and the time will be what it will be. I am looking forward to it!
Shame about the forecast tomorrow re the coastal headwind that's expected, that said good luck for tomorrow TR! Hopefully your recent hard training and focus will pay off!
Good Luck TR!!!!!
Have a good one TR, you'll nail it!!
Good luck TR. Enjoy
about 2:50 pace and felt easy. Problem 1 was the wind, it was pretty tough from 10 miles and very nasty from 14 miles. We turned round at about 17.5 and my calfs started groaning and threttening cramp. Pace was slowing at this point. By 22 miles I got full on hammie cramp and had to hobble in pretty much on one leg. Got loads of support and shouts out (+ few laughs
Realised sub 3 was slipping and rallied but alas it wasn't enough.
No need for comusserations folks I am proud of the way I battled on. The Marathon is a cruel mistress. I will do another maybe not soon though
Certainly think I
Tr, good effort. The marathon is certainly an unpredictable beast where times at other distances cannot as accurately tell you how you will do.
Well toughed out, TR! Look forward to your analysis!