RW Forum Six - Sub 3:30

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  • Minni.......I tried doing a race of my own last year for a schedule.......even got my OH to run with me to help keep me going.................But found I just couldn't get that adrenaline buzz that hits you at a race........so was slower than hoped for.......image
  • Waves to AA

    Yes, I'll be on Green again. Just like old times. What time are you going for AA?

  • seren - I can understand that.  Did you try it a few times?  I'm not keen for the reasons you said, but may have to attempt it.  I might be able to get some others to join in and make it a bit of a 'fun' race.  I could do it every three weeks or so.  I'll see what Dave thinks....

    AA, CG - I'll bring with wine if you bring the crisps?

    My schedule says 10miles general aerobic for today so the plan is to do 5 or so then join the club for another 5.   The bible says the general aerobic pace is 15-25% slower than marathon pace, which is slower than LSR pace.  I would have thought it would have been a bit faster.  

  • How fast does P & D have the long runs at, Minni? I seem to remember that they are progressive?

    7 miles for me today including 8 x 300m hills. I love and hate this session with equal passion. Back to 5:30 am starts again tomorrow.

  • 10 - 20% slower than MP but they start to add miles at MP into them as it goes on.  My 6am running partner has had a burst appendics and I'm really struggling to get out on my own.  Do you run on your own first thing?
  • I do. I'm up and out as soon as the alarm goes. Once you've done it 2 or 3 times then it gets easier. Hope your running partner is ok?

    That is interesting about the pace of the general aerobic runs being slower than the long run pace. Mine are both run at my easy pace. Is there a recovery pace too?

  • I don't mind the going out its just going out on my own!  I'm such a scaredy pants!   What is your easy pace?  My recovery pace is 9.30 - 10mm.  Do you still train to your heartrate?  I couldn't find my max so gave up!
  • Gosh, P&D sounds like quite a bit of work at what seems a very early stage - congrats to all who are churning out the miles, especially at the crack of dawn.

    Week 1 of the RW schedule going nicely, with 4M today - didn't bother with timing it as at this stage it's just about getting some regular runs in. Next week's speedwork may come as a nasty surprise!

    I'm interested to hear what people think about your question re hilly routes for LSRs, Minni. My 20M route has a couple of big hills in the first 6 miles, but then flattens out. I often wonder if the first section has cost too much effort, as I always struggle with the last few miles.
  • I don't agree with all of P&D's fast running early on. this is BASE training.
  • Joddly/Mr Spoon I haven't followed the P & D  before so cannot comment at this stage image 

     I did 9.6miles tonight with the first 4.63  @ 8.23mm  and 4.95 @ 8.22 mm.  The first half was pretty even splits but the second included hills which made the miles more erratic.   However, just realised this general aerobic run should have been at around 9mm.  

    Yes Joddly, need comments on hill running as a LSR....    I've followed the RW schudule in the past and always managed to brush over the speed sessions image.  I think that is why I have never broken 3.30 though!   Please keep us informed - its great to compare sessions. 

  • Hi everyone - hope you all had great Christmases...!!

    Schedules in full swing then....mine has already gone wrong as I had to move my Sunday LSR to yesterday which has mucked my nice spreadsheet up. Oh well, not to worry. Still 15 weeks 4 days to go. I try not to get too hung up about sticking rigidly to it, otherwise I'd just panic if I have to miss a session. Mine is not very scientific either - I fit in one interval session, one tempo or theshold run, one LSR and then 2-3 others which are generally easy/steady pace. It more or less follows the ones in RW I think, although my distances on weekdays are generally around the 5-6 miles rather than anything longer, just because of time pressures. My weekly mileage should peak at about 50 between late Feb and mid March.

    I did get a PB over the weekend, as I ran my first ever 5k race at the Norwich Parkrun on xmas day morning. Not as quick as I would normally want - 22.33, but it was very slippy as we'd had snow overnight. And its a time I can beat at the next one on NYDimage

    I'm another one off Green. I'm hoping we can knock all those celebs out of the way quickly and settle into the right pace early on - when I last did FLM I struggled to get faster than 9mm for the first couple of miles.

  • Freemers - I think your training pretty much mirrors mine, except I usually make my Monday easy run around 9 miles. I think a slightly longer run the day after a LSR works well, training on tired legs and all that.
  • Hi CG - all back on green - great image not sure on what I'm aiming for this year - will have to see how I get on! Somewhere between 3h29 and 3h44!! As normal!!

    Started with a  6 miles threshold yday on treadmill and did 41m45 followe by a 15 mile bike ride

    5 miles recovery in 48 mins today.

    How was the early start Minni and CG??

  • Freemers..  its so annoying when the spreadsheet gets mucked up.  I've always followed the RW and the First, doing my week then ticking the boxes on which ever schedule it matched the most.....  Like you I've always tried not to get too worked up about missed sessions.  However, my committment to the P&D this time will be a slightly different approach.

    Well done on your PB!  I wish there was a Parkrun around here but the nearest is an hour away. 

    You can join CG, AA and myself on the edge of the celeb enclosure.  They usually rush to have their photo's taken with us.... image

     AA.. 6 miles in 41.45 on the treadmill? That is an awesome session.  What is your 10k pb?

  • Minni - PB for 10k is 42:48 set a few years back. That session was a killer yesterday - normally only do a 5 mile threshold session. I'm following the First plan, but over the last 5 or 6 years have tweaked it and tweaked it so it now nothing like the original!!!

    Freemers - we were actually on This Morning a few years back - in the background!!!

  • In the background - we were on the sofa!  image  or we might be this year!!

    That is a really fast 10k.  I'm very jealous.  

  • Interesting forum, Minni I have just purchased the P&D book off Amazon - thinking it may add some variety to my training. 

    Like you guys starting on green again this year, would love to go sub 3:30 but at this stage it seems like a mammoth task!  Shall look forward to reading how you all get on with your training.

  • Welcome Kiwi! The book certainly gives you a lot to think about. It explains the science behind the running and helps to differentiate between the different types of runs in training. I'm also trying to do the core strength exercises 3 times a week.

    What is your pb at the moment? We'll take over the Green start at this rate!
  • AA - That is a brilliant run especially on the treadmill.

    Managed my early morning 10 miles yesterday. I've been doing loads of base training and feel so slow at the moment but I'm already up to 60 mile weeks with a 20 mile run on Sunday. I've done an 18 and 19 mile long run over the last 2 weeks. I suppose the speed will come back but I'm a bit worried about Brass Monkey.

  • Mr Spoons wrote (see)
    I don't agree with all of P&D's fast running early on. this is BASE training.

    Sorry, but to give Minni the confidence she's on the right track, I have to disagree. The Base training period is the period of slow running and mileage building in the weeks leading up to the Marathon schedule. These weeks ready the mind and body for the harder work that comes with the marathon campaign.  Minni has started the schedule now, which comprises the early Lactate Threshold runs. These are important in improving the ability of the legs to keep a quicker pace for longer, which in turn, will enable her to hold the MP stints in the MLRs and LSRs and will also make MP feel easier.

    x-post: Crikey CG, you mean business!!!

  • Only problem with that 6 miler now is that I am supposed to be doing my reps today and even after a 5 mile recovery run yesterday my back and quads are still aching!! Rest day today I think and reps tomorrow now!!

    CG - blimey you do put the miles in - well done already! Most I've done is a 30 mile week so far - mind you even in peak training rarely go over 40 mile weeks image

  • B&B Yes, that makes sense.  Thanks.  There are so many different views on pace its sometimes hard to keep up.  I have trained for previous marathons without pushing myself too much on the pace front and have never cracked the 3.30.  This time I want a different approach and hopefully it will produce a positive result.

    CG - Yikes.  That's a high mileage but you're experienced enough to know what will work for you.  I'm also worried about the Brass Monkey because I don't feel as if I've improved in the speed since my last half in October, when I was 4 mins off my pb image.

    Today is a cross train for me and I'm going out to do a 6 with the Mr Minni.  It won't be any quicker than 10mm but I'm then going to follow it with this session as recommended my a fellow runner.  Its a short but high intensity work out.  Anyone else tried this? 

  • Minni:

    Warm up - Jog at 50% max for 5 minutes
    6 x (Sprint for 20 seconds + 10 seconds rest)
    1 minute rest
    6 x (Sprint for 20 seconds + 10 seconds rest)
    1 minute rest
    6 x (Sprint for 20 seconds + 10 seconds rest)
    1 minute rest
    Cool down - Jog at 50% max for 5 minutes.

    This sounds like FUN. I've never tried it but I will and soon. I'll keep you posted. i think it's great 5 / 10 km training. Not sure about marathon training though? My marathon speedwork is usually more like 800s, mile reps and tempo runs. I do like to mix it all up a bit though.
  • Minni - Sounds like you are going well so far.  As B& B said, keep to the schedule as much as possible as it has been written for a reason and will give you a huge amount of confidence if you can.  As you've said before you have the endurance so by training your legs to do the faster stuff will get you below your target.
  • Thanks Minni.  My P&D book won't be delivered until Jan. 4th, so am following the runners world sub 3:30 schedule at the moment. 

    My marathon P.B is 3:35, half P.B 1:39, like you my endurance is fine I can plod along happily, but I am not very good at the short and fast stuff, speed work is something I find really difficult in training!  Pace is a tricky one too.  Has anyone trained using progressive runs before and found them to be really beneficial?  Runners World seem to like the idea of progressive runs, I'm not sure if you then take longer to recover?  Think I am going to include some on the Sunday long runs this time around.

    Loads of great ideas on here, thanks guys   image

  • Kiwi - I'm into the third week of the P & D. The first two weeks were a bit haphazard due to the snow but I'm on target this week.  This is how my week looks:

    Monday - rest or cross-train.  I rested! Did core strength exercises, from the P&D book.

    Tuesday - 10 mile General Aerobic.  ( Done at 8.23 average, slightly too fast)

    Wednesday - Recovery.  (I missed because I was away for the day.   Core strength exercises).

    Thursday - 5 mile recovery run.

    Friday - Lactate Threshold, 8 miles with 4 miles at half marathon pace (7.37).

    Saturday - 4 mile recovery run.

    Sunday - 14 miles somewhere between half and marathon pace.  It is the winter rerun of a summer run.  Not a race but there'll be a crowd which should help the pace. 

    Total for week: 41.

  • Minni well done on what you've got done so far. I have a feeling that with you having a thread of your own you'll want to start hitting the sessions so you have positive news to feed back. In turn you'll develop a level of consistency that will provide the backbone to a great marathon. Don't get hung up on the 3h30 moniker just focus on logging the sessions P&D prescribe first and foremost. Brass Monkey will be an excellent marker of where you're at and again don't fret about the result. Whatever the time it will let you know where you are in terms of fitness with 14(?) weeks to go. Plenty of time to build on a good result or to build up if you're not where you think you should be.
    Wishing you all the very best in 2011
  • Thanks MM! Please stick around - you always give sound advice.  I think you've hit the nail on the head with the training sessions.  I've never really stuck to proper training because I'm only answerable to myself.  Hopefully, as you say, this way I will be much stricter about getting the sessions ticked off.  You helped change my thinking regarding target times with your advice a few weeks ago so, at the moment,  I'm concentrating on getting used to running fast more often. 
  • Your recent 1h40 suggests just a smidgeon outside a 3h30m marathon. I'd wager that with 4 more weeks of training under your belt you'll go quicker than that. Isn't Brass Monkey flat and fast?
    I think that being consistently consistent over 16 weeks will bring it's own reward and allow you to get the pb you crave
  • Minni - your training sounds like it's full steam ahead!  I'm especially liking the core training stuff your doing - I've never tried doing much more than runnnig in previous training schedules, but I think this maybe the year to expand my horizons.

    Like a few others, I've also ordered P&D (you should own shares!).

    Happy new year etc to all.

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