Talkback: ASICS Target 26.2 Team: Emma

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  • Well that was a windy one! York half marathon today. Was aiming for 2:05 and made it in 2:05:47 so happy enough with that especially as I knocked 5 mins off my PB. It also means, if you can trust the runners world race time predictor (!) that a full marathon should be doable in 4:20. Not sure whether anyone rates the calculator or not.

    My splits were 9.15, 9.20, 9.26, 9.25, 9.25, 9.36, 9.42, 9.22, 9.34, 9.35, 10.01, 9.53, 9.57

    Three slow last miles which perhaps suggests going off too fast. My problem is trying to have a bit in the bank at the beginning for when I slow up towards the end. If I was more consistent I probably wouldn't need any time 'in the bank'!!

    I hope everyone has managed their long runs today in this awful wind. Do you reckon it means we have in fact run farther cos of the weaving we have had to do with the wind image

    Hope everyone has a good week!
    R
  • Hey Rachel - nice one!  I think the calculator is reasonable reliable - I've used it a few times to choose which schedule I should be doing and always achieved the time it's aimed at.

    I'm really sad ; I truly believe in my dad's favourite saying: 'The wind is your friend - it makes you strong'.  (Besides you get to enjoy the tail wind at some point...image)

    Maybe the last 3 miles just mean you need to do more endurance work or maybe it's psychological as you feel you should be getting tired.  If you set off slower it would be interesting to see what happens at the end - bizarrely I go through the same wondering process.  I've tried to make a conscious effort to set off at a more steady pace and guess what - the only difference in my race is how much I enjoy it as opposed to feeling like I'm hanging on.  My times have stayed reasonably steady but continual in their improvements.

    I'm contemplating trying to sneak a 20 mile event into my marathon prep later in the summer - has anyone got any experience / thoughts on that as a concept? 

  • Sleepy Bear wrote (see)


    I came across a really interesting programme the other day that only gave interval instructions for the fast phases and the recovery was to be as long as it takes until your heart rate drops back to a prescribed level (I think about 65% off the top of my head). 

    Sam - any view on this? Defined recovery time vs variability dictated by HR. Is there any evidence of one being more effective than the other? Sounds like a possible MSc thesis! LOL

    Hi Sam - I nearly forgot about this...... what do ya reckon - will it make that much difference?


    Hi SB, sorry I missed this. It would depend on the purpose of the intervals for me (and therefore the pace).

    If it's true speedwork where you're going pretty much flat out over the distance, then I'd agree that the duration of the recovery isn't that important. The important thing is that you ARE fully recovered - so that might take as long as 2-4 times the duration of the effort itself. Eg. 6 x 30 seconds with 2 min recoveries, or as long as you need)

    But if it's VO2 max (aerobic capacity) training, then the recovery shoudln't be longer in length than the length of the effort, if not a little shorter. (Eg, 5 x 3 mins with 2.5-3 min recovery.

    Does that help?

  • Emma, great couple of days of training (those 1km reps and the long run). Well done!
    About heart rate: without knowing a bit more info, there's no way of saying whether your heart rate was 'good' or 'not good' or whatever during those intervals. I could use the 220-age formula to get an idea, but it's not very accurate. What would be more useful would be the Karvonen Formula which also takes into account your resting heart rate, if you know what that is (if not, you could measure it first thing in morning, while still lying down and before any caffeine or food - use your finger not thumb to find the pulse below thumb on wrist.) Then can work out if you were at, say, 90% of your max or whatever, which at least tells us something.

    Rachel, well done on your half marathon time. But you're right, you can't put miles in the bank I'm afraid! It takes a bit of confidence to start out a bit slower but like SB says, it pays off image

    Just a five miler for me today in the morning sunshine, round the field borders. Lovely!

  • Hey Sam - ahhh yes that's a very useful distinction. Thanks - I think I was overcooking my intervals last year so I'm trying to be a bit more restrained this year and hopefully that'll save me being totally trashed after each session!
  • SB - I've done a few 20 mile races during marathon training but haven't actually raced them full out.  Tend to go into them with a plan and try to stick to it.  For example Finchley 20 is 4 laps and I did 5 miles @ MP+90, 5 @ MP + 60, 5 @ MP + 30, 4 @ MP and then the last mile cooling down.  It was great run because despite being literally at the back to start with by the last lap I was overtaking loads of people image
  • USB - that sounds like a very fine plan! Now I just need to find one that sits nicely with race day itself (tbc in September sometime).  Thank you image
  • SB and USB - I have a 20 mile race planned in for week 9 of my spring marathon schedule and plan to do it as a training run with very similar paces to USB - first 10 @ MP+60, next 5 @MP+30, last 5 @MP.  I have done these races for previous marathons but gone far too fast in them and paid for it on the big race day so have learned my lesson - with the Garmin I will certainly do the paces planned and no faster.  Correct pacing in training is the biggest thing I have learned from this experience.  I do plan to do my Half races flat out as super tempo runs, to give a guide to fitness levels and halfs do not risk doing muscle and fatigue damage like a 20 miler can (for me anyway).

  • SamMurphyRuns wrote (see)

    Emma, great couple of days of training (those 1km reps and the long run). Well done!
    About heart rate: without knowing a bit more info, there's no way of saying whether your heart rate was 'good' or 'not good' or whatever during those intervals. I could use the 220-age formula to get an idea, but it's not very accurate. What would be more useful would be the Karvonen Formula which also takes into account your resting heart rate, if you know what that is (if not, you could measure it first thing in morning, while still lying down and before any caffeine or food - use your finger not thumb to find the pulse below thumb on wrist.) Then can work out if you were at, say, 90% of your max or whatever, which at least tells us something.

    Rachel, well done on your half marathon time. But you're right, you can't put miles in the bank I'm afraid! It takes a bit of confidence to start out a bit slower but like SB says, it pays off image

    Just a five miler for me today in the morning sunshine, round the field borders. Lovely!


    Hi Sam and thankyou - I know I wasn't meant to do my intervals the day before my long run but couldn't seem to juggle it all in otherwise!

    I was a bit confused about my runs this weekend - I did the 14 yesterday but I think you had also got a 3 miler down for the other weekend day.image

    However, I've done 31.4 miles this week (largely because I am a plonker and did 6 instead of 4 on Monday) and I am actually quite tired after yesterday so I haven't done the 3 miler. In fact I didn't realise until I sat down to have lunch so then I wasn't able to go until the evening. Sunday eve is always manic school uniform ironing and marking so haven't forced myself out this evening... hope that is ok.

    Re Intervals and HR - My resting heart rate is typically 56-60 (although it has been much lower too which frightened me!). In terms of my pecieved exercison it seemed harder than usual by comparrision with an evening outside track session. Probably because it was hot, in the morning and because I had worked a very long day the day previously.

    Hope run was lovely - can you believe how mild it is this weekend?! Fabulous!

  • I know it might be a bit far north but there is a 20 mile race in Hull in March. It's pretty easy to find on google. I had planned to run it because only one of my half marathon friends is training for a marathon and I thought it might be hard to do 20 miles on my own! I would use it as a training run but I like the suggestions from USB and Oscarr on the splits! Thanks guys!
  • EmmaC wrote (see)

    Hi Ruth - That was a particularly naughty day! This week I've been really trying...and feeling a bit hungry too! So unlike Rosie - If I'm not eating I'm thinking about food!

    I'm still not having sugar in tea or coffe or on cereal!

    Monday - Breakfast - grapes, apple, low fat yog, fruit and nut sprinkles and cup of tea (no sugar)

    Lunch - malt loaf, 2 slices of rye bread with peanut butter, bananas x 2

    Dinner - Jacket potato veggie bake in a tomato sauce with grated cheese! Low fat strawberry yog.

    Had similar food all week. On Saturday my tummy was fine so I was really pleased (first time I've done a long run without tummy cramps for ages!). I'll look back at what I had for dinner and lunch previous day... maybe the steak burgers were ok afterall!?

    I've struggled towards the end of my shorter evening runs this week - with sore tummy and having to visit the smallest room as soon as I got back home. Not sure why there is this difference? Possibly the additional fruit - even though it was in the morning?

    Think that the food I've been eating is generally lower GI so my energy levels and my moods have been much more positive and steady - hope I can keep this up! Hopefully I'll loose a little weight too! 

     )

    Hi All back from work - v tired and have a stonking headache! Just stuffed my face as I got home - mainly due to being so tired I think.

    Breakfast- chopped fruit breakfast (as per usual now), cup of tea

    Snack -  mixed nuts

    Lunch - 2 x rye bread with peanut butter, 2 x malt loaf, strawberry yoghurt.

    Snack - fruit and low fat yoghurt (like breakfast)

    Dinner - 1/2 think crust pizza, 1/2 jacket, salad, 3 slices of malt lof (oopsie but I felt like I deserved a treat as was so late back!).

    40 is the new 30 - I so hope that my running can get better this year! I move in to a new vets category for the Grand Prix events this year - trouble is V2 is actually stronger than V1!

    One of the women at our club is in her 80's and still racing - she came back from the European champs with a load of medals... she is a legend!

     Hi Emma, Agree you need to look back and see what you had before your long run with no stomach problems, we really need to get your food sorted out the day before and morning of race as it may take a while, so keep note before all long runs and see what we can work out.
    Also are you eating enough at breakfast? Are you eating a little one day then much more the next. If yes, we need to even this out as this can lead to feeling tired as always on catch up; what do you think?

    Agree with sam if you can take some raw salad that would be great at lunch, also some nice soup for variety  at lunch? You could then take the  malt loaf out and have one slice as your mid-afternoon snack. As i  wonder if too much malt loaf, combined with the other foods, is causing stomach (can we go to one slice a day as a snack, you can add a yoghurt to this and see if this helps?). Looking forward to seeing you this Saturday.

  • Rachel Hodge wrote (see)
    I know it might be a bit far north but there is a 20 mile race in Hull in March. It's pretty easy to find on google. I had planned to run it because only one of my half marathon friends is training for a marathon and I thought it might be hard to do 20 miles on my own! I would use it as a training run but I like the suggestions from USB and Oscarr on the splits! Thanks guys!
    I'm doing the Spitfire 20 in Surrey in March - don't know where everyone is based?
  • Ruth - I have a bit of a malt loaf addiction!

    Bit of a geedy guzzler actually - now I've bought the nuts I can't stop eating the darned things!

    Good news about tummy on the last long run... v v v little cramping and no emergency pit stops. There won't be vegetables at lunch until Weds as my food delivery arrives on Tuesday. But I have got soup tomorrow with rye bread, bananas for my snacks. Will try to chop out the blasted malt loaf.

    To put it in to context I did used to eat a family bar of chocolate every other night not too long ago! Really chuffed with my fruit intake ... starting to snack after dinner so I need to watch that!

  • I'll bring my family menu's then I can work out what I ate before each run.
  • Morning Mrs Soreen - should I be buying any shares? image

    Just found a 30k in mcs country in August for anyone planning an autumn marathon!  (Or at least it's up that way? I think it's nearby - Belper?)

  • SB - try Lakeland Trails web site if you want a trip to lake district - they do various distances in the year - i'm doing their marathon on 1st July.  mcs posted a web site for a 20 miler in derbyshire finishing around Chatsworth House but I can't remember the link now (senior moment !!)
  • Sleepy Bear wrote (see)

    Morning Mrs Soreen - should I be buying any shares? image

    Just found a 30k in mcs country in August for anyone planning an autumn marathon!  (Or at least it's up that way? I think it's nearby - Belper?)

    I'll have to change my name to Doreen at this rate.

    I've gone cold turkey - no malt loaf at work for lunch!

    Instead - Breakfast of prorridge, honey (only 1 teaspoonful), seeds and raisins.

    Veg soup and rye bread for lunch, with fruit and yog for pudding!

    Bananas (not stolen) for snacks!

  • Emma - you've changed - I'm not sure I like you anymore - who will normalise my naughty snacks now ROFL -  just kidding - you're doing fab!!! image

    Oscarr - ooooh oooh - must have missed those - mcs - can you humour us and repost? Please, thankyou.  I've bookmarked the half on the 1st - so I'l hopefully see you there image

  • My god Emma, you are going to be hosting your own diet show soon at this rate image Really glad no stomach cramps on the long run at the weekend.

    So it's rest or fartlek today, depending on the week's juggling. Are you feeling recovered enough from long run to tackle the fartlek?

     I just posted the below on Rosie's thread but thought it might be useful here, too:

    Just a little bit of advice about schedule juggling, because it's unlikely that you can do the runs on any programme on the exact days set every week. This isn't aimed at any particular individual!

    Pick out the most important two runs (for marathon training, these would be your long run (if you are doing a long run that particular week) and some kind of faster work - so perhaps tempo, brisk/ 10k pace training or speedwork

    Schedule these on non-consecutive days that you are most likely to be able to fit them in on with the easy days or rest days on either side.

    If you can then fit in any of the other scheduled sessions (as in non-easy days), do so - again making sure you don't do two hard sessions on consecutive days.

    This will help you don't end up missing the most important sessions or 'squashing' all the hard stuff up towards the end of the week.

  • Just read your feedback on heart rate - thanks for that.

    So let's take an average resting heart rate (RHR) of 58 (midpoint between your 56-60)

    Your age is 39 which means your age-predicted maximum (MHR) is 181bpm.

    Using the Karvonen formula, can use this info to work out what your heart rate would be at different percentages of your maximum.

    Eg. 75 per cent (steady run pace) = (MHR - RHR) x 75 per cent + RHR

    75 per cent = (181-58)x75 per cent +RHR = 150bpm

    85 per cent (tempo pace)  = (181-58)x85 per cent + RHR = 162bpm

    90 per cent (intervals pace*) = (181-58)x90 per cent + RHR = 168bpm

    *On intervals, could be working as high as 99,100 per cent if v short with long recoveries.

    So looking at your average HR across the 1000m intervals, you were working at between 85 and 90 per cent of your maximum. By the way - looking back at your results, you didn't take the full 90 second recoveries - you took 60 seconds instead. This would partly explain why your heart rate went up and up progressively...

    Hopefully this formula will make sense to everyone. I'm terrible at maths so I am not sure how you use it 'in reverse' as in, plug in your heart rate to find out the percentage of max you were at. image

  • I am trying hard to be good with my food Sam - I'd like to shift a bit of weight as I think I would run a bit faster and generally have more energy (for chasing the boys, swimming, football etc.). But I do keep falling off the wagon - I do think the main change of no refined sugar has made me feel better. But now I feel rotten about what the boys eat parental guilt!image

    The HR calculations make sense but (I know its a stupid question) what exactly counts as a tempo run? I understand intervals and steady runs but never sure whicj of my activiites is a tempo run.

    This week - Was thinking of the SAndwich run tonight, Fartlek tomorrow (will read back what you wrote to Craig explaining this) then intervals on Thursday and 14 on Saturday. Should there be a short recovery on Sunday? Also I sent you an email as I missed 3 miler last evening - wasn't sure if this was in or out as last week was the week of mega juggling!image

  • Morning all!

    I think I am probably asking a question that has already been asked but here we go. Sorry if I'm repeating things!

    What pace should my LSR be? Should it be MP or slower? I can't quite get my head round running the LSR at a pace slower than MP. I can't understand how that can help in the long term ?

    Having the inevitable morning after down feeling. Must stop being so hard on self.

    Emma I could just do with some malt loaf right now !! Will try to be as good as you and resist!

    Rachel
  • SamMurphyRuns wrote (see)

    Just read your feedback on heart rate - thanks for that.

    So let's take an average resting heart rate (RHR) of 58 (midpoint between your 56-60)

    Your age is 39 which means your age-predicted maximum (MHR) is 181bpm.

    Using the Karvonen formula, can use this info to work out what your heart rate would be at different percentages of your maximum.

    Eg. 75 per cent (steady run pace) = (MHR - RHR) x 75 per cent + RHR

    75 per cent = (181-58)x75 per cent +RHR = 150bpm

    85 per cent (tempo pace)  = (181-58)x85 per cent + RHR = 162bpm

    90 per cent (intervals pace*) = (181-58)x90 per cent + RHR = 168bpm

    *On intervals, could be working as high as 99,100 per cent if v short with long recoveries.

    So looking at your average HR across the 1000m intervals, you were working at between 85 and 90 per cent of your maximum. By the way - looking back at your results, you didn't take the full 90 second recoveries - you took 60 seconds instead. This would partly explain why your heart rate went up and up progressively...

    Hopefully this formula will make sense to everyone. I'm terrible at maths so I am not sure how you use it 'in reverse' as in, plug in your heart rate to find out the percentage of max you were at. image


    Sam - the formula you need "in reverse" is;

    % of Max = (AHR-RHR)/(MHR-RHR)x100  

    AHR is Actual Heart Rate; RHR is RestingHR; MHR is MaxHR

    For Emma in the above example where RHR is 58 and MHR is 181 this gives:

    % of Max = (AHR-58)x0.813

    So, using an example of AHR from above of 162 the formula gives (162-58)0.813=84.552%

    Hope it helps, Oscarr.

  • EmmaC wrote (see)

    I am trying hard to be good with my food Sam - I'd like to shift a bit of weight as I think I would run a bit faster and generally have more energy (for chasing the boys, swimming, football etc.). But I do keep falling off the wagon - I do think the main change of no refined sugar has made me feel better. But now I feel rotten about what the boys eat parental guilt!image

    The HR calculations make sense but (I know its a stupid question) what exactly counts as a tempo run? I understand intervals and steady runs but never sure whicj of my activiites is a tempo run.

    This week - Was thinking of the SAndwich run tonight, Fartlek tomorrow (will read back what you wrote to Craig explaining this) then intervals on Thursday and 14 on Saturday. Should there be a short recovery on Sunday? Also I sent you an email as I missed 3 miler last evening - wasn't sure if this was in or out as last week was the week of mega juggling!image


    Hi Emma

    Nope 31 was a great mileage for last week so glad you didn't do the extra easy run on Sunday!

    The structure for this week sounds fine - and glad you had a rest day yesterday if you're doing the sandwich run tonight. Keep the fartlek reasonably low key tomorrow - not too many v hard efforts  please! Then rest days on Wed, Fri and Sunday.

    So, as for tempo pace. It is typically around 5-15 seconds SLOWER per mile than 10k pace. (The faster you are, the more seconds slower you should opt for, the slower you are, the closer to 10k pace) If your 10k pace is an hour or more, I would consider 10k pace and tempo pace the same. This is usually around 85 per cent max heart rate. On the Ultimate schedules, I think where it says 'brisk' is the most similar to tempo pace. It's a bit quicker than your half marathon pace, Emma (this is partly because 'relatively speaking' your 10k time is more impressive than your half mara time, so there is a slightly larger gap than you might typically expect.) Hmm, wondering if I should say this to you - give you something else to worry about?! image Please don't. It just means you've got more natural speed - or possibly, that you were better prepared for your 10s than your halfs. Anyway, we're working on speed and endurance now so please don't worry about it.image.

    Oscarr: Thanks for your fabulous maths! That's really helpful. I'm going to copy it down in my little black book where I keep all my coaching notes image

  • Sam - pleased to help.  Think you probably have worked this out but the formula should read;

    % of Max = [(AHR-RHR)/(MHR-RHR)] x100  (i.e. multiply the whole lot by 100)

    Everthing else I gave in the post is accurate

    Oscarr.

  • I'm definately better at 10s than halves! I'm not worried about it - just find it odd. I find that I get to 10 miles and the wheels come off in a half. Lots of that is fatigue (through poor endurance training/not enough?) and psychologically I think I fail.

    At TW last year (whic is a tough course) I had 36 mins to run just over 4 miles - my initial response was I can't do it. Then I started 'talking to myself' (not out loud I don't think) saying it was only 9 min miles and that I could do it. 2:01.02 achieved. Barns Green in October - just a hideous run quite frankly. Horrendos stitch for 6 miles which just took the wind out of my sails.

    I also worry in races that if I go out too hard that I literally won't finish - this is slightly less of a fear over a shorter distance! By the way I've not managed to achieve 51:22 again (have done two 52 :30's as closest!). Would love a sub 50!

    Tempo for me should be 8:19 + 5-15 - About 8:30's?

    Half will be close to 9 - but aiming for slightly better in Tunbridge Wells? 10k - pushing towards 8 min miles?

    If you look at my body type I am not the usual long distance runner - but too sturdy for that. Probably best at about 200m image and I like 400m as well - I love a sprint finish so probably that's why I love track training so much!

    I still don't know what happens about hotels on Saturday - Do I book and pay for it?image

  • I would also like a pancake flat 13.1 miles for a change!
  • One slice of malt loaf? I suppose if I cut a loaf in two, that would be two slices? In any case, once I eat one slice I generally go on to eat the entire loaf! It's also one time where I slap a huge wad of butter on my food. The other time being on crumpets - but the butter melts on crumpets, so it doesn't count because you can't see it image

    I do draw the line at a 13.1 mile pancake though Emma!

    If you want any more of my nutrition advice, let me know.

  • Sam - another thought about this formula is that if you use it for a lot of students I think the simplest way to present it is to start with the simpler version:

    % of Max = (AHR-RHR) x F      {where F = 100 divided by (MHR-RHR)}

    MHR and RHR are fixed so students can work out F leaving them with a very simple formula for easy future use.

  • mmmm a 13.1 mile pancake - lemon and sugar surely!image

    As far as malt loaf, chocolate, granla any yummy sweet things goes - I am really poor at sticking to a sensible amount! Just go back again and again!

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