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Sub 10:00...
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Alright Nicco. Sounds like you're in a pretty good place to think about sub 10. For me i'm doing usually 3 bikes a week. Hard brick on Tuesdays, intervals on the rollers on Thursdays and a 3 hour bike on Sundays. Bricks is something like 22k bike 10 run. Intervals are stuff like 4x8 minutes at various intensities around FTP + warm up cool down to bring it to 60-90mins. Then the 3 hour bike would include hill reps or 20 minute TT efforts. Also had a crack at a 6 hour TT and have another coming up in about a month. I'll be aiming for a similar bike split.. probably more like 5:30
Basically, I do very little high intensity ie over FTP work. I have seen some pretty good gains on the bike this year based on what I'm doing so far, but I'm wondering if I'm missing a trick by not having some short, hard stuff. Be interested to hear back from others how / if they've incorporated such efforts into iron distance training and what gains were had?
Back when I was able to do 5:30 bike splits, my training wasn't much different to yours - long ride at weekends, shorter stuff on the turbo during the week. My turbo sessions tended to be shorter and higher intensity than yours though, and I'd sometimes throw in some short intervals too. It seemed to help balance out the long rides, if that makes sense, although I can't quantify any gains. My long rides would include a few 100+ mile rides, or I might do 80 and run for an hour afterwards.
One issue I had with using a turbo was lack of time on my TT bike (I have an old bike permanently on the turbo in the loft). I did do some of my long rides on it but in hindsight I should have done more. You're on the TT bars for a long time at Outlaw.
Nicco... what age group are you?
Engineer - are you racing Outlaw this year? I think I read you are in one of the first posts in this thread?
Thanks for the response guys, definitely some food for thought. I'm toying with the idea of mixing it up a bit with a couple of sessions on the bike to see if I can keep the FTP moving in the right direction.
I actually live pretty close to HP so most Sunday rides I'll do some of the outlaw bike course, always on my TT bike as I find it way more comfortable than my road bike and I guess I can justify it in terms of specificity as well... I did a 5:34 split last year but that was taken fairly comfortably as it was my first iron distance race and first ride 90 miles. If any of you guys are planning a course recce let me know., it'd be cool to catch up.
Based on practically zero run training so far I'll need a decent bike split! It keeps nagging away at me every time I start any sort of proper running again which could well be my undoing.
Nicco, 6x20min at ftp sounds too hard to me if that's what you meant and again maybe points to your ftp actually being a bit higher if you can manage 2 hours at ftp even with recoveries. I'd aim for 2 and ideally use them as a chance to practice TT position even if it's just some clip ons on your turbo bike.
You live reasonably close to me, do you train with any groups or do you train alone?
6x20' @ FTP is a huge effort even with long easy recoveries. 6x20' @ 85% or race pace would be better IMHO but then I'm no Sutto
Might well be hitting the course up this weekend with a friend - a mix of that and the half course.
Went off to check TR - it's 80 - 85% of FTP for 20 minutes x 7 with 3 minute recoveries. In my mind this constitutes threshold, but I've probably got my terminology mixed up, it is pretty knackering whatever the right name for it is.....
Did 30 minute FTP test on wattbike this morning and still around 275 (299w for 30') but extra biking outdoors over the last few weeks seems to be paying off with some better long rides coming along quite nicely.
Engineer - - bloody whippersnapper! I was still getting kicked all over a football pitch at your tender years.
I'll be going out for around 80 miles round the Southern and Northern loop early on Saturday morning if anyone is around. Warning: when I say early I mean it..... Likely to hit the road around 5:30am.
Popsider- I train on my own with the exception of a couple of runs from work (with a 2:30 marathoner!) so company would be most welcome if anyone is around over the coming weeks?
Just wondered if you went out on the Parrot run or with any local clubs.
Yes I was thinking FPT = threshold but of course threshold is actually a bit less isn't it. I just tend to train on feel or with groups except on the turbo when I do use a bit more structure.
Borrowing from Phil Skiba:
"I think the problem here is that we have a whole lot of terminology that people in sport use somewhat recklessly and inaccurately. Let me try to help clear things up a little bit. (Besides all the athletes I coach / sports medicine I do, I work in one of the best laboratories in the world with respect to this stuff). In short, there are really two "thresholds", if you like.
At the low end, we have Lactate Threshold or LT. This is simply the point where lactate rises by 1 mmol / L over exercise baseline. In other words, if you are zipping along at 1.5 mmol / L, and you speed up enough that you reach 2.5 mmol / L, you have crossed LT. This is actually a lot easier to do than most athletes realize. You could ride around at / about LT for a couple hours without much of a problem.
In the middle, we find OBLA, or Onset of Blood Lactate Accumulation, is when you hit 4 mmol / L, irrespective of where your baseline was. This term is not used frequently used anymore, and we should probably avoid it.
At the high end, there is the MLSS, or Maximal Lactate Steady State. This is simply the highest level of exercise we can maintain while maintaining a steady concentration of lactate in the blood. Any higher, and we see a progressive increase even if we maintain a constant power. MLSS is intimately related to the concept of Critical Power, and is probably one of the biochemical manifestations of reaching Critical Power (if you are on a bike) / Critical Speed (if you are running or swimming or whatever). The physiological "stuff" going on at this point is probably what results in the "feeling" of "threshold", and is what is partially responsible for what Andy Coggan calls "FTP". FTP is probably not reflective of some unique, alternative threshold phenomenon. It is just convenient shorthand, and results from your body "understanding" that if it goes much harder, bad stuff is going to happen (like inexorable fatigue). In other words, FTP that you observe in the field by doing something like a 40KTT is probably pretty close to, but just slightly lower than CP in a well trained athlete.
This begs the question, what is CP and how do you measure it? If you did a bunch of all-out exercise tests...i.e. went as hard as you could for 3 minutes, and then for 5 minutes, and then for 10 minutes, and you graphed them on a piece of paper, you'd get a curve. It would be high on the left, and then slope down to the right. The place where it seems to level off is CP. You can also make the same graph by using joules (this is easy... watts = joules per second), and you get a straight line, and the slope of that line (rise / run) is equal to CP. (PLEASE NOTE: This is Critical Power, the real scientific one, not the bastardization used by many people to refer to the hardest they can go for some period, like "CP30" for "the hardest I can go for 30 minutes).
Basically, it goes like this. As you cross LT, you begin recruiting less efficient muscle fibers, which tend to use more glycogen / carbohydrate and less fat for fuel. The result of this is an increase in lactate in the blood. This is not a problem. The lactate is taken up by other cells / organs and is metabolized. (Lactate is an energy-rich compound, not a waste product. It doesn't in and of itself cause fatigue). In triathlon, it is a problem only in the sense that your body glycogen / carbohydrate stores are limited, and that you can "bonk" if you aren't getting
"that you can "bonk" if you aren't getting enough carbs in while you race (if the race is long enough). Additionally, we see the emergence of what is called the "slow component" of oxygen use. In other words, let's say your LT is 170W (not unreasonable for an age-grouper). Below 170W, you are using some constant amount of oxygen. If you made a graph, you'd see your oxygen use rise up as you started, and then become a straight line. Now, if you ride 180W, what you will see is that your oxygen use seems to kind of level off, and then (maybe a minute or two later) there is another "hump". In other words, it appears as though your body suddenly realizes it needs more oxygen to do the job. However, this second "hump" also levels off, so you again end up with a steady state of oxygen use. It is just that you are using more than you might otherwise have expected.
The key is that so long as you stay below Critical Power, your body is able to maintain a physiological steady state. After several minutes, oxygen use levels off, lactate concentration levels off. In the muscles, the concentration of creatine phosphate (PCr), ATP, inorganic phosphate and hydrogen ion (i.e. pH) stabilizes. Once you go hard enough to cross Critical Power, bad stuff happens. In other words, let's say your CP is 240W. If you go to 250W and hold it, things get interesting. Even though the work rate is not changing, there is still a progressive increase in the amount of oxygen used, a progressive increase in lactate concentration in the blood, and a progressive decrease in ATP, PCr and pH inside the muscle. It is very cool, because you cat actually watch a lot of this stuff happen with a specialized MRI setup. Eventually, you reach some limiting level of the concentrations of the other stuff, fatigue, and must stop, or at the very least drop to some much easier intensity.
I encourage people to stop thinking in terms of lactate. Everyone does it, because it is so easy to measure. However, it is really just a very indirect market of some much more important / interesting stuff that is going on in the body, most of which is not easy to measure without expensive gear. From the perspective of the average (or even professional) athlete, it is simply important to realize that you don't want to be crossing CP with any significant frequency or for any significant duration if you are expecting to do your best in a triathlon, particularly a long course triathlon. "
Maybe we should just train by feel...
^^^^..... This!!!
..... is what is going to drive me away from the sport!
I'll keep it up then.
Blimey!
Never mind sore legs....I've got a sore head now after that lot! that's my mind made up, none of this interval / scientific training malarkey. I'm just going to carry on biking along as best I can for 10 hours a week.
I'd love a power meter on my TT bike but I'd become even more of a data geek than I am already with GPS / cadence etc etc....
Training Update - ran 8 miles this morning and knee felt OK...just another 12 weeks or so to keep it in one piece! 2 hours on the wattbike tonight to look forward to.
TE - I read about two lines of your posts, then the last sentence. I prefer the last sentence!
Nicco - I wouldn't worry too much about all of that. Just get out training as much as possible, do most of it fairly easy and a couple of times a week push it hard. I honestly don't think I would be any faster if I structured my training more. Virtually all of my training involves just going out cycling/running with my mates.
I haven't posted on here for a while, but a brief update is I qualifed for the World Duathlon Champs at Clumber Park (5th overall), but can't make it now so not doing it. Nothing major planned for the rest of the year - two days of the Tour of Wessex, some league running races for the club, and might try to find a half IM in late summer. I've not swum a single stroke since Kona!
Oh, and the Milton Keynes marathon on Monday, but just running with a mate to try to get him his GFA time for London, so hopefully should be fairly comfortable!
I reckon you can go a long way just training with local groups so long as the groups are decent. The front group of our local Saturday ride came past me yesterday (I'd taken a short cut when my legs blew up earlier) and in the cafe one of them said he'd been holding 340 watts at 63kg (near 5.5w/kg) which is pretty good after well over 2 hours fast riding in the Peak - for the same w/kg I'd have to be doing near 450w which for a hill well over a mile long coming to the end of a hard ride is never going to happen.
I've noticed over the last 3 years the standard locally has really gone up - maybe because there are more riders there is more competition - but the front end of the chain gang and weekend ride is frightening now and I think a lot of it is just people pushing each other on.
agree with that.... our local chaingang regularly averages 25mph.... too much for me!
Been a big swimming week for me this week. I picked up a minor achilles strain last weekend. Swimming every day made a huge difference. Finished off today with 10x400 off 7 minutes mostly around 6:36 with a 6:22 to finish. I don't think I could have even had a crack at that this time last week!
Hoping I'll be back on the bike this week.. maybe even an easy run fingers crossed!
TE, while others may have been yawning at your post both my wife an I found it fascinating.
Thanks
Cautiously optimistic I can run on my calf again! Slow and steady
Is 1800m at 1:33/100m any good?
Bank Holiday here in Guernsey today and I've been for a gentle 2km sea swim.
It's feeling wonderful to be back training. Slowly does it though.
As as for sub 10? I'm thinking Austria or Copenhagen next year.
I've only just caught up on this thread, from start to finish. I'm a 12-13hr IM finisher, with aspirations of going as close to 11 as possible at IMA in June (although the chances of nipping under that marker is very unlikely) and there'll be a lot more structured training required before sub-10 become relevant but some interesting points have been made.
I'm curious to know (given the length some people go to dissect their performance during training) whether Engineer, you've yet run the calculations to establish which race, in context of the lunar cycle, provides the best gravitational advantage?
If not, I might just wait until my horoscope tells me this is my week for making a move quickly.
Joking aside, some useful ideas have come up on this tread, so thank you for starting.
Hoping that was swimming TE, otherwise I don't think the calf is 100% yet
Damn... my calf has also gone. Pulled yesterday in a 10k race I gently plodded round due to a very ban hangover. RICE all day yesterday and still tender today
Sorry to hear that GB. You're flying in terms of speed, I'd not worry about killing it to get back to intervals or similar. When it's right long steady on the bike - am I right in saying your longest ride is about 130km so far?!
New challenge for me in the pool. 61m laps so I've invented "Round the Clock"...
12x61m off 1:05 (coming in on the minute and resting to slowly move round the pace clock... basically an enforced warm up
)
12x61m off 1:00 (staying at the top of the clock and coming in on :55)
12x61m off 0:55 (winding it back round the clock, trying your damnedest to come in under :50....)
First attempt... failed (missed the sendoff with 2 reps to go). Next time I'll hit all the sendoffs, then I can start working on coming in consistently under :50....
Yeah, a few at 130/140km but none longer than that. Long long ride every weekend now (6 weekends), hopefully with a slow brick off each
Great swimming TE. 30x100 for me this morning in the pool.
Hoping I can ride tomorrow for a 3 lap RP session in the morning, may jump on the turbo for half an hour tonight though to see how it affects the calf. I'm guessing I wont be running for a week or so
Out for a blast of H10/4 last night... 24:27 for an average speed of 39.5km/h. Now I've just got to learn to hold that for 4 hours 30 minutes.....
My achilles injury seems to be worse than I thought.. 3 weeks without biking or running now! Hoping to get back on the bike this weekend. Big improvements in swimming are keeping me sane. I've knocked over 2 minutes off my 1.9k swim to get down to 29:50 in the pool.
I'm getting conflicting advice from physios. My regular physio has given me a bunch of eccentric loading exercises. Another has advised to absolutely not do any eccentric loading exercises unless the injury has become chronic. Granted he didn't examine me at all.. if only is was simple!
I hate that - there's always a conflict between avoiding further damage to a muscle and doing the strengthening required to prevent injury. Do you trust your physio? Do you think he knows you well enough?
I'd also add the obvious warning about making sure you're not cramping it up when swimming