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Sub 3 Tom: #asics262
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Malcs I wouldn't normally recommend the Hyperspeed 5 for longer runs but I want to wear them in the upcoming races starting this week and also needed as much help as I could get to do the long run Sunday but they were fine and better support than a lot of the shoes I have worn despite their lightness.
They should be superb for the Marathon.
I seem to get away with very light shoes - and as only wear shoes for a few hours a day, I seem to have strong feet. I'm going trying a pair of vivo barefoot shoes for the non running I do. .
Tom - Clapham Chasers Thames Riverside 20. Putney Bridge to just past Richmond Bridge and back. Not a big event and I've not done it before but local and convenient, albeit 8.30 start means a very early breakfast for me! They call it race or pace. I shall be doing the latter.
Superb 20 miler Malcs - it should feel easier the more you do and the MP will feel tough near the end like Steve says, but anything that replicates the later stages of the marathon can only be good in training.
I need to get some new shoes, been used to using Asics Excel 33's for a while now.
KR - many thanks indeed! It's good to know that my experience was nothing out of the ordinary then.
Was it the Excel 33's they fitted you with at store day?
Steve - ah, I see. My foot strength is nowhere near yours so that's probably the difference. Can't see me doing anything long in the hyperspeeds but they could come in handy for a 5K PB attempt later in March.
Thanks for the advice on the long runs. My last 3 weeks were 14, 18 and 20 all at about the same pace. Should I do another 20 at 8's again this week or drop back and do a quicker 15?
Golfer - sensible call to pace it. I have done the Spitfire 20 the last two years and always used it as a training run. Good luck!
Tom - lol, I don't think I will ever be lapping you! And as for staggering, well you'll see me doing alot of that this evening after the 800's are over
It was a shame I missed you at bootcamp so I it'll be great to meet up tonight.
Malcs - I would probably suggest faster this week and longer next - I'm doing a 10 mile race this weekend rather than fast training run.
Cheers Steve!
Great seeing you again tonight. Brilliant session, really enjoyed it. As you said, you work so much harder in a group session like that.
According to my Garmin all 10 x 800m were sub 3 except the first one (3:03). Average was 2:57.
Tom - excellent to meet you. Hope your train journey back was ok.
I can confirm that Steve hasn't been leading us all up the garden path, Tom is in amazing form
Absolutely flew round tonight. I tried to get close to him on rep 9 but after 200m my legs were like lead.
With a bit of luck I may see you next week as well.
Evening all. Great track session this evening! Malcs, great to meet you finally!
We did x10 800 reps. Splits are below!
I didn’t feel that I was quite as sharp as last time I did 800s which was at training day 1, but having just looked back over those splits, I was actually almost identical!
Interestingly, one chap from the club who I’m usually quite similar in pace with just bought some track spikes. He was flying and I couldn’t keep up! Definitely had shoe envy (never thought I’d say those words!).
You’d never know that Malcs is only a few weeks into his schedule – very impressive stuff. I think the whole group must have had a much slower first rep looking at our splits.
14 miles slow tomorrow.
Another excellent session for Tom - it was quite windy and cool and Tom did 10 this time to the 6 at Battersea and think the recovery was less this time so a much better session.
but Tom could go a few seconds quicker in spikes, but not worth risking before Paris.
I was down on my session last month and disappointed though it was a sub-3 session. I was fairly adjacent to Malcs, who definitely did best session I have ever seen him do. I was ahead of him on one and ten, level or a stride behind on two to eight but a bit behind on nine when he chased Tom!
Thomas - great session and further confirmation, if any were needed, that you are nearer to a 2:45 marathon than a 3:00.
I did these Yassoo 800s during my training for my first sub 3. I had to give it everything just to keep them a couple of seconds under the 3 mins. So I reckon they are a pretty good predictor as I had to give the marathon everything to get a couple of minutes under the 3. I guess the only thing in my favour was that the track sessions were on a Monday and as I always did my long runs on a Sunday I was doing them on tired legs, so possibly could have been a little faster.
Malcs, that's a sub 3 session you delivered there
Yasso 800s work for some exactly but I do think running 10 800s in 2:59 is a lot, lot easier than running 2:59 in a marathon. Some runners with reasonable speed could easily do the former but not the latter.
However, I don't think me and Malcs would have run as fast if on our own and definitely not the day after a long run and One Gear doing that on consecutive days is total madness and you were unluvcky you didn't get injured and could run the rest of the week!
Must have learnt something from Steve because I was thinking exactly the Same about One Gear and those back to back sessions!
Tom- sorry. I was trying to make the point that you your nutrition strategy may alter a little as the number of marathons and time that you run them alter. So sorry will keep to the here and now- Paris!!!
You should have started to feel confidence that you know exactly what race day breakfast and pre-race snack is and the portion and have practiced this a few times? Same goes for carb load and in-race fuelling. Practice in-race fuelling when you can; the more you do this the less risk of any tummy problems on the 12th April.
I also don’t believe that I’ll be near 2:40 in a marathon, as my 800m reps may suggest!!! Would it make a difference that during our track session we actually have a minute or so rest between reps rather than a slow 400m?
Hi Ruth, haha yes, I see what you’re saying now. I definitely do take some confidence that the race day nutrition plan is starting to become routine for my longer runs. This weekend, I’m doing a 4m XC race on Saturday and then longer run on Sunday. I’ll try both the 24hr carb load plan and in-race fuelling practise with gels during the longer Sunday run. It will be the first time I’ve practised these together.
Regarding my Saturday XC and how I fit my carb loading around this – the race is at 14:30. As such, I’d rather not eat lunch if I’ve already had a large breakfast and mid-morning snack. Would I be able to skip that lunch meal and just have a later breakfast and later pre-race snack instead?
Steve - in fact it is even worse than that. I always do the full 26.2 in training once before London. So, yes you've guessed it, I have done the track session the day after my 26.2 training run. Felt a bit creaky at the start but was fine when I got into it!!!
also re the 800s - it is skewed by your speed - one runner in our group who is very strong and experienced has broken 2:40 but was nearer 2:50 in the session and there were a few who I was behind yesterday, who I would be surprised if they beat me in the marathon and some even in the half-marathon.
I think it shows that maybe anyone who can run 2:40 probably has the potential to run a 2:40 marathon after years of training and their endurance levels ever get to the same effectiveness as their basic speed.
Jogging slowly in between would probably mean you would run quicker than slower and is beneficial but impractible with 40 odd in group of varying speeds but if on own probably is best to jog a little between.
sorry mistype to one gear should say you were lucky you didn't get injured!
Tom re 2.30pm start it would seem best to me to skip lunch and then have a quick post race meal/snack but Ruth's the expert here. I have never ever had lunch for an afternoon cross-country and survived off later larger breakfast and snack and would have thought more important that you are fuelled for next day's long run by having something immediately after race?
It seems like you are making great progress, and I'm sure with your recent form you'll smash Paris!
Steve - cheers muchly! Felt like the best session I'd had there too
You're right, there's no way would I have been able to run that quickly on my own.
Very interesting re. the Yassos. I certainly don't think I could run 2:57 right now.
One Gear - many thanks indeed, really appreciate that.
Like the others, I can't believe you managed to do those sessions back to back. I'd have been in pieces!
Tom - you didn't see me today! Thighs were mashed. I will *never* attempt to catch you again! lol
How did your 14 go? I did 12 at 8's which was ok ish but I could feel my right thigh was sore and tight from yesterday. Nothing a stretch and a roll won't be able to sort though.
Saffa Mark - ooh, do you start and finish at Wembley? Do you get to climb to the presentation area to collect your medal?
You're in for a treat in Paris - it's a great race and if you're in the front pen (is it red?) then you're really close to the front. Last year Roger was visible in the start photo!
Well done on the reps Tom, Malc & Steve - a good session. I agree doing this kind of session with a group of varied pace makes it more beneficial as you would push yourself more. I've been doing my rep session alone at the Park now as can't make the track nights due to other commitments. But I think I could probably push myself a bit more with others.
Hi Saffa Mark and welcome to the forum. Good to see another Paris sub-3 hopeful on here! What time are you aiming for at Vitality North London?
Steve, that’s what I would feel comfortable with too, but I’ll see what Ruth agrees!!
One gear – running track sessions the day after a training marathon actually makes me feel slightly ill!! I found myself thinking about that mid-run last night! Haha.
14 miles yesterday averaging 7:35. It wasn’t the best run I’ve ever had. I did the same route as we did on Training Day 2, but felt worse even though it was 8-9 miles less and a slightly slower pace. Legs feel a little sore today, but as you say Malcs – nothing a stretch and roll won’t be able to sort.
8 mile out and back speed endurance session this evening. Steve, how should I look to structure this run?
Thomas - if I tried to run 800s at your place I would definitely feel ill!!!
Having failed to do sub 3 by 49 seconds I was absolutely determined to do it that year and in fact started training in the June. So when I did it I was more than 8 months in to a 10 month training schedule and it was just part of a 50+ training week which was the norm for me in Feb.
Obviously, I wouldn't recommend this to anybody but I admit that I take as much (even more) satisfaction from what I achieved in training as I do from the actual race. After all the race is only about 3 hrs yet the training was running "day in day out" in all weathers for 10 months.
I think if you can see the training as an achievement in its own right it helps to keep the motivation and then the race just follows through.
That's a deep, yet really good point One Gear. We all put so much in to the training, yet usually define ourselves with a few seconds either way of success. You've got to take satisfaction from the training and actually enjoy the majority of it - otherwise what's the point? That said, missing sub 3 by 49 seconds sounds horrendous!
Well done all on some good intervals. Tom - that is so quick! I did 800s last night with 2:52 being the quickest. But they were solo - and I think that you're right that company can make a big difference.
I'm planning on doing 20M with 14 at race pace on Sunday. It can feel strange not going all out in a race, but actually quite satisfying if you execute your plan well enough. What other races do you have coming up Tom?
Malcs- It starts and finishes at the Saracen stadium (Allianz Park), with a run though Wembley Stadium around halfway – never been to Wembley so looking forward to it. Super excited for Paris, I think I asked to be put in the red pen.
Tom – My PB is 1:22 so I’ll be chuffed if I manage to go under this. Did a 7m LT run this morning around 6m/mi so hopefully have on target for the PB.
I’m definitely enjoying the training more now that it’s a bit lighter and warmer in the mornings.
Great run last night Tom - I only did 10 at about same pace as Sunday run -
Spring is on way - today for speed session on Blackheath it felt relatively warm and felt easier going quicker. This week Greenwich Park is open until 7pm but was quite dark when finished last night.
For tonight - try and run four miles out slowly - 7:45-8 minute miles which I know you find impossible to do and then try and run the last 4 at 6:45s
One Gear - that is a great point and an admirably positive outlook on training achievements.
Definitely harder solo Sorequads! There’s no way I could have run 2:40 consistently solo. The satisfaction in holding back in a race probably comes in the long term, should the end goal become reality.
That sounds like an interesting run Saffa Mark. Certainly one for the sports enthusiast! I’m not sure what starting pen I’m in at the moment, but sounds like red is the one to be in!
Sorequads - yes it was a bit grim. Endlessly having to explain why over a 3 hour race I just couldn't have gone 49 seconds faster!
In fact I was 52, had only started running at 49 and it was a pb by 5 minutes, but at the time none of that counted. So, very much enjoyed coming around the last corner of VLM two years later and seeing 2:58 on the clock. 10 months of training and 1,800 miles ran just for that one moment - magic!
Thomas, see what you are missing out on - all that hard work to make up for being old and not very fast.
Good point One Gear about all the training. It is a collection of al those times you've gone out when you didn;t feel like it and still did your training, that makes the PB on race day worth while. A lot of the time non runes don;t get it or even understand the commitment needed for a 4 month truing schedule (or in your case 10 months!). Brilliant time for a 50+ runner.
Agree Steve, the slightly warmer temperature is a welcome change for running in. I've gone from double gloves down to single gloves!
Hope your 8 miler went well tonight Tom. I did a progressive 8 miler with a 2 mile warm down tagged to the end for a total of 10 miles in 7.10 av pace. Faster last 4 miles were 6.47, 6.50, 6.35, 6.35. The sub 7 miles are certainly starting to feel more comfortable these days.
One Gear - I'd imagine that the longer you train for something, the more rewarding the goal is, as the training has consumed such a large amount of your time.
8 miler felt good last night. First 4 averaged at 7:50 min miles, last 4 averaged at 6:35 min miles.
I'm going to try and average sub-6 min miles tomorrow in my 4 mile cross country. The first half mile is downhill so I plan to go off 'fast' and hold the pace as best I can in the climbs.
One Gear - that's an amazing achievement! Sub 3 within a few years of taking up running is outstanding at any age!
Steve - wise words as always! I'm sure you'll be fine between now and London. You're in top shape right now and you have the experience to know how to carry that on into April.
KR - cracking progressive run there. All looking very good for you (sorry, mustn't say these things out loud
)
Saffa Mark - that sounds like a great route. 1:22 is a fantastic PB already. Fingers crossed for you. Pressure is on, we're all watching you now
Sorequads - best of luck on Sunday. Sounds like a tough one but also one that will give you a massive mental boost.
Tom - brilliant couple of sessions following those 800's on Tuesday. Clearly you've recovered really well.
I did 12 on Wednesday at 8mm pace. Right quad was a bit sore though (definitely shouldn't have tried to catch you on that fast 200!)
I decided not to do anything yesterday as the quad was still tight and sore. Don't think it's injured. I just overdid it a bit. Feels like a dead leg only not quite as bad. Today I did a gentle 4 miles and it was ok but still not 100%. Hopefully it'll be fine tomorrow as I want to do the 18 with 9 v.easy and 9 MP that Steve suggested. If it's not 100% then I'll push that to Sunday.
Bit annoyed at myself for doing the 12 when really I should have done a shorter one. Then I might have recovered more quickly and been able to do Thursday's session. Ah well.
Thanks Malcs- I too had what sounds like a very similar injury trying to outsprint younger runners over a 100 metres. As you say a bit tender for a few days but hopefully like me you will get away with it.
To avoid injuries at track sessions, I used to rub in "Deep Heat" just before to warm up the muscles particularly in winter. I then would warm up with a good mile at brisk pace and avoid the 100 metre sprints altogether.
It was a lovely sunny afternoon so I attempted a run. My first since Tuesday. Previously my leg has been sore for the the first couple of miles then eased off. Today it was fine for the first half mile then got progressively worse until I was forced to stop and limp the rest of the way home. It may be T-shirt weather for running, but it certainly isn't for walking quite slowly. I fear I may have to accept that this marathon campaign is gone.