Junior Doctors- are they the new scrounges?

The govt seems to think that is it better to cut the pay and conditions rights of junior doctors to save money instead of say ensuring that big business pays the taxes that they owe.



So are junior doctors the new scroungers? Are they really taking out more than they put into society? Or are they just another small group who are being expected to suffer in the short term to satisfy the Tory ideology of cuts at the cost of those least able to defend themselves?



Personally I believe that they should only take from those at the bottom once those at the top have been made to pay their fair share. Sure, junior doctors start on 40k per year but this latest stand off signifies that the govt sees those who earn less than 50k per year as being those who should bare the brunt of the cuts, along with teachers, nurses and the much touted strivers that they claim to support while taking away their crutches.
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Comments

  • I agree - but to be fair it seems that it doesn't matter who is in power, none of them want to bite that particular bullet. 

     

     

  • I keep getting told junior doctors have it easy.... In my day.....

  • NayanNayan ✭✭✭
    The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of Other Peoples' Money
  • There is a problem that junior doctors work too many hours and have to take important decisions......so it would be better if they worked less.....

    but of course they want to work less on the same pay....whilst the other side are saying you only get paid that much to start with as you work so many hours   ..

     and there are so many people trying to get into medicine that the old argument of we will not have enough doctors wont work..its the hardest course to get on.

  • Then of course there are the people that live half there life in the doctors waiting room. The people who have always put there nose up to any responsibility to an healthy lifestyle and sit there moaning about the problem. 

    It's like owning a car, never service it, give it oil or water and then when it breaks down, make sure its in the fast lane of the motorway to risk it for everyone else and then blame the RAC for not getting there quick enough.

     

  • NayanNayan ✭✭✭
    Haven't they just been offered a raise and better overtime terns anyway ?
  • NayanNayan ✭✭✭
    It is wrong to castigate doctors though. I'd reserve my ire for 'students' turning violent in the name of Bsc Beckhamology being free* to all. These people deserve to be flogged.



    *paid for using my taxes.



    Back on the doctors part:

    Police and firemen don't down tools on weekends. I fully expect s 7 day NHS too.



    Tiredness kills- so we should be expecting s sensible workweek/Rita from doctors. This means we should be sensible about unsociable hours and what we demand of docs. Fair play to them for not rolling over there.



    Docs do not deserve guaranteed pay rises just for being in the job (sometimes on maternity leave) for x years. They deserve pay rises for progressing through training stages and demonstrating their increasing experience and seniority. This needs to be reformed- sorry
  • JT141JT141 ✭✭✭
    This government is disgustingly cynical in making wilfully misleading statements to undermine and stigmatise. It's not just spin, it's bare faced bullshit. I really do fear for public institutions as they're demonised as bloated greedy bureaucracies taking from the public and responsible for the economic downturn. Quite why anyone would wish to go into the police or the NHS in these conditions I've no idea. Even the 80's Tory government weren't this set on private interest dictating over public interest, and they were venal bastards.
  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    Before the formation of the NHS, all Doctors were private. If you wanted one, you paid.

    Their financial leverage was the same as veterinary practitioners are today; and you know they don't come cheap.

     

  • VDOT52VDOT52 ✭✭✭
    Meh, the horrible tories do horrible things because horrible people voted for them. The only upside is that some of those monsters who voted Tory are now getting the treatment that they thought others would be receiving. Justice is a funny thing.
  • limperlimper ✭✭✭

    Just to rectify VDOT52's O/P...
    "Sure, junior doctors start on 40k per year"

    The starting salary, following a 5 year self-funded degree and doing a job with the responsibility for people's lives, is approx £22k. Compulsory anti-social hours currently brings it to approx £30k.

    @ Nayan...

    We DO have a 7 day NHS. 
    Pay rises "just for being in the job" are not guaranteed and doctors have to pay for all their exams to progress up the career ladder.

    Just saying.

  • Yep we have a 7 day NHS, but I wouldn't want to be rushed in on a Sunday morning ( just saying) 

  • VDOT52VDOT52 ✭✭✭
    Limper, apologies. I was using the figure that the tories are touting about. I should have realised it was propaganda.
  • limperlimper ✭✭✭

    VDOT52 et al
    The press releases are very deceptive. The 11% increase is on basic pay but the new contract removes the anti-social enhancement so there would be a pay DROP of at least 25% (on average). 
    Nothing about the new contract incorporates the provision of more doctors at weekends. Doctors already work weekends. And nights. And Bank Holidays. The only doctor not available to Dave on his Sunday admission would be a consultant (who aren't included in the pay / contract changes anyway). But, if Dave is right proper sick  on Sunday and not just a bit crook from Saturday night indulgence, then a consultant will be available to decide what life-saving procedure to administer.

    Our NHS is second to none. Just saying image

  • Assuming you can drag said consultant away from the golf course....

    And what about the nurse practitioners who can set up a drip, and follow pgd's so a junior doctor isn't dragged out of bed every 10 minutes ? 

    keep laughing at the idea of getting GP's to work Sunday's, no one seemed to ask them.

    not sure what Saturday night indulgence is ? Is there a medical term ? 

  • so why become a doctor........a nurse will have their course all paid for and receive a bursary when training......

    and on their first day on the job they are on nearly £22000 basic...before you add on any unsocial hours etc.....

     I presume that doctors can rise higher and faster.......regarding the funding of doctors paying for their training......The universities will state that the medical students get the best deal of all students.....

    if you actually had to pay fees for the value of training you receive then doctors would never go on a course..their training costs way way more than any other student at the universities so they get the best bargain of the lot of them...if they can get a place  image  image

  • I'm with Dave.....I wouldnt want to go to hospital on the weekend if I was seriously ill

  • Paying for training courses ? New one on me...

    more like drug company funded, staying in a nice London hotel, with 1st class rail travel, and the time banked as time in lieu to be claimed back later.

  • NayanNayan ✭✭✭
    Fair play limper. I was going by the bbc's summary but maybe misunderstood. So what exactly is the reform about training progress if you wouldn't mind clarifying?
  • VDOT52VDOT52 ✭✭✭
    the spin is like the one for tax credit cuts, they wave around the alleged positives while tucking the real facts away in their pockets.



    It seems like the tories believe that they can do some kind of financial alchemy. Somehow they deem it possible to give junior doctors a pay rise that will make them all better off and yet manage to cut the overall pay bill at the same time. They'll be selling us tartan paint next.
  • seren nos wrote (see)

    I'm with Dave.....I wouldnt want to go to hospital on the weekend if I was seriously ill

     

    Neither would I. Hospital mortality rates are 10% higher on weekends.

  • NayanNayan ✭✭✭

    You can certainly give people pay rises while demanding better value for taxpayers money  - no contradiction there

  • DustinDustin ✭✭✭

    The starting salary maybe £22k (plus bonuses) but rises to £28k in year 2.
    Personally, salaries should be higher and hours less, but we'd all have to pay for that via taxation and that's never a vote winner.

  • NayanNayan ✭✭✭

    I don't hae a problem with getting better value from docs *and also* demanding big firms pay their taxes, incidentally.

    PLus the idea that the NHS doesn't burn money on pointless administrators is pretty far fetched 

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    Shows how much we take the medical infrastructure of the UK for granted when people start bitching and moaning about how much it costs.

    Go back a few years and you would be lucky to make it to 50.

  • VDOT52VDOT52 ✭✭✭
    Nayan, they are not giving them a real pay rise though are they? And if they were then how can it be better value for he taxpayer? It is all hokum. Typical Tory terrorism on those earning the least for doing the hardest jobs.
  • NayanNayan ✭✭✭
    11% is more than inflation. Ergo its a 'real' pay rise.

    Or am I missing something?
  • VDOT52VDOT52 ✭✭✭
    Yes, the facts.
  • As I understand it, the basic rate is raised by 11% but that is balanced out by extending the "normal" working hours. I'll let the doctors do the calculations as to whether they're better or worse off; doctors tend to be fairly clever folk.

    But let's be serious: when is a Tory government going to give anyone in the public sector a genuine pay rise of 11%? (Other than executives and senior managers and consultants etc, of course).

  • NayanNayan ✭✭✭

    Helpful

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