A bit like sub-4 (but 15 minutes quicker)

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  • Hi All

    This is a close call - am I sub-4 or sub-3:45? Or will someone set up that 3:52:30 category?

    My races towards the end of last year were:
    - 10k - 46:57 (but done the day after a 22 mile rowing race - and I had aches in places where I never even knew I had muscles)
    - 8.2 miles - 1:00:15
    - 10 miles - 1:15:30

    Anyone mind if I'm an occasional visitor here as well as in the sub-4 group?
  • Hi BNTM

    Your 8 and 10 mile race times are very good - I would ignore your 10k due to your rowing excuse.

    If you can do 7.5 min miling for 10 miles, then you should have no problem doing the 8.5 min miling required to a 3.45 marathon -GO FOR IT!
  • PPB, I read in RW about somebody doing the same as your friend (maybe it was the same person!) and it sounded like it worked very well. He had to endure a bit of p***-taking from the crowd in the early miles apparently - doesn't look too good when you are walking after only 10 mins! But who cares about that when you could silence critics with a sub-3.45 marathon!

    As a matter of interest, have you worked out what pace each 10 minute running stint would need to be to achieve your goal?
  • Puggers I'm running more than you - about 55 miles a week but the theory is that it's the quality of the sessions that matters. So providing you're doing the tempo and long runs should still be okay.

    Too scared to try the theory out myself though.

    I don't think I'd want to run/walk the marathon at the kind of pace you're talking about...

    I reckon in 2 minutes you'd cover maybe 150 metres (maybe more, that's based on the sort of times at the track for recoveries). You'd end up walking for a total of 18 times (36 minutes) in which time you'd cover about 1.7 miles. Leaving you 24.5 miles to run in the remaining 189 minutes. giving you a running pace of about 7:43. Does that sound right?

    Sounds like a very long track session to me!
  • Donna, that sounds pretty spot on with the calculation. I understand in chatting to the guy that he reckons he was running about 7:30 mile pace for each 10 minute set. It was very hard to calculate though as he would cover more than a mile in each running section.

    I just thought it was interesting and given the fact he ran 3:30 it seems worth a shot. I suffered badly after about 21 miles in my first marathon so you never know this may be a solution.

    I agree that the 7:43 running pace is quite fast but I slow dreadfully in the later part of races. I assume part of the run/walk plan is to try and avoid slowing through fatigue for as long as possible.
    I'll update on how the plan works after my next long run after this coming weekend.
  • I have run half in 1h47 10k in 46mins. Should I be in this group or 4hours?

    Just ran 10 miles last night in 1h30 and I ahve only run over 10 miles 3 times. No injures as yet, but just got a new pair of supernova cushion trainers yesterday so who knows what injuries they will cause!!
  • Okay PPB - sounds like an interesting experiment, good luck.

    My tactic to aviod this (slowing in the later stages) is the long runs and the marathon pace sessions on the treadmill hopefully building up to 18 miles. But then I really couldn't face the idea of a 3:30+ hour track session! Makes a couple of hours on the treadmill seem realtively painless!
  • PPB - it does sound very interesting and I too remember the feeling of exhaustion in the last half of my one and only marathon.

    The Hal Higdon website also talks about some sub-2:30 marathoners taking walking breaks - and for lesser mortals it suggests walking near water stations and has some numbers on how little the odd walk will actually cost - and some wise words on how much benefit a walker gets...
  • Donna W, I think you picked up that I'm going to do my next long run at the track. I couldn't handle the boredom of that. I'm planning on repeating 3 laps of a 6 mile route that I regularly run but just adding in the the walk breaks.

    BNTM - I think I read the same thing so it certainly can be done. I think such a routine may take some getting used to.

    Rainboy, it's so hard to know what group to place yourself in. Using time predictors on runnersworld.com for your pace off 10K & Half M would be about 3:42 so why not stick with us on this thread.

    I've just completed 9.4 miles in 1 Hour 12. Quite a fast pace for me.
  • Hello all

    Like Rainboy I'm aiming for this slot off a 1.47 min half marathon (Watford) and hope to get better at Reading and Hastings before the FLM which will be my first. I'm learning all the time from this site so I might hang around a bit for your advice if its okay wih everyone. The runnersworld.com predictor puts me at 3.43. My main worry at the moment is exhaustion near the finish, I went to bits on the last couple of miles of a 18 miler at the weekend
  • That's training though Freddo. Tough 18milers+ now = success on the day.
  • I'm the same Freddy...when I increase the miles the last couple seem very hard and I'm not sure I could do any more....but then next time the extra miles I did last time don't seem too bad and its the new extra miles that cause the problem
    It makes you realise why we do long runs - I would want to really suffer for 13 miles on the day I'd rather reduce it down to the last 2 or 3
  • PPB - I didn't think you were going to do the long run at the track - I was just comparing it to the only experience I have of run fast, walk to recover. Our session on Tuesday was 4 x 6 laps with a minute recovery. That was pretty hard work and the though of doing another 15 of those is pretty inconceivable for me! (Although that was at 10k pace so 7:43 would be a little slower and you'd get an extra minute recovery each time.)

    On the walking and still getting good times subject - my boyfriend ran 2:43 last year and he said he was walking for parts in the last miles. This was just due to running too fast at the start - having to walk I mean.

    Twin Dad - I agree. I was increasing my long run by 10-15 minutes every other week and the last couple of miles always felt like I was stumbling along, by the next week it all felt much easier.
  • Hi all.
    In a similar position to some in this thread that it is my first marathon and I am not sure what I should be targeting. I’ve only ever raced once and that was last year’s Nike 10k. Got 46 mins for that but have been booze free since New Year so would hope would be better now. Doing 10 mile training runs in 1hr 13mins and 13 miles around 1hr40. Bit concerned that I will burn out as the mileage increases and it also concerns me that so many people in this group seem to have done marathons before; I hope that this does not mean that the odds are stacked against the new boys/ girls!

    JH
  • We all have to do our first marathon sometime. I've completed one but I'm just as concerned about burnout at London as I was before the first. The main thing is I know when it happens that no matter what I can keep going, even if it is a walk/jog/shuffle, for the last few miles.
  • James,
    I don't think that there is a rule that you have to have run a marathon before to run sub 3:45. Your times are good and if you do enough long runs you will (certainly) do a sub 3:45.
  • Just returned from a lunch-time, race-pace 8miles along the River Taff in Cardiff. I found a cobbly stretch of 100m which struck me as useful training having heard about the cobbly section in the FLM! I must say it was hard on the knees and that was only after about 5 miles!

  • There will be a red carpet over the cobbles, so nothing to worry about.
  • Red carpet over tiles is an interesting one though. Have heard that this means you can't see the uneven bits and some people stumble here. Is it better to forgo the slight cushioning effect in order to be able to see what you are running on and avoid stumbling?
  • Some in my running club told me that the cobbles, while unwelcome, aren't really all that bad. They come so late in the race, after 23 miles, and only last a few hundred metres. I'll be hanging on by then anyway so maybe the annoyance of the cobbles will put me off the the pain in the rest of my body.

    What distance long runs do you have lined up for this weekend. It's the 18 Mile Run/Walk for me tomorrow.
  • Lars, you really were suffering last year for I could have sworn the carpet was green!!

    Good point Donna, a lot of runners opt not to run on the carpet for that reason. To be honest, the cobbles really aren't that bad. I train along there regulary and have never had any problems. Having said that, they have been digging up a fair amount of the cobbles at the point where you leave the Tower, hopefully these road-works will be complete by April, and surface will be replaced nice and even.

    Right, back to the sub 4.15 thread!!! You guys are too quick for me!!
  • I did another marathon pace sesson on the treadmill last night. Never thought I'd see the day where I said I'd spent nearly 2 hours on a treadmill! 1 hour and nearly 54 minutes later, 21.2 km completed at 11.2 km/h (8:30 minute mile pace). Alhtough dull it wasn't too bad. Legs ached a bit when I went to bad but quite encouraging. If I can survive those hills in Richmon Park think I'm all set for the RW pacing run.

    Resting today and then something speedy tomorrow and my long run on Sunday. Looking to be out for about 3 hours 40 again in which time I hope to complete between 22-24 miles. Hopefully the winds won't be quite as harsh as last weekend.
  • You are already doing 24 miles? I will do my first 19.5 mile run this Sunday, the Meon Valley Plod. I am a bit behind my schedule because of the XC season, but there are only two races left and both on Saturdays so I still can get long runs in. At the moment I am just trying to rebuild confidence, there are still ten weeks (or 6 20 mile runs) to go. I will not do runs over 20 miles, tried it last year with BigBob and he "slightly" miscalculated the distance and our 22 mile run took us over 4 hours.

    I can't remember the colour of the carpet or if there are holes underneath because I walked next to it last year ;-(
  • I'm not absolutely certain on the distance as it's a mixture of canal towpath, roads, park, river side etc. I do know the distance of parts so can roughly estimate from that and then my boyfriend has done the same route so confirms the estimate.

    I know that's a long way and the first time I did it was sort of unplanned, was looking to be out for a certain time instead. Felt a bit nervous that I'd run so far so deliberatly took it easier last Sunday and covered less distance in the same time.

    The thing is I find it hard to get my head round this concept that on the day you suddenly can run not only further but do it all about 30 seconds or so a mile faster. I just want to make sure I'm confident I can as I get nervous and tense in races as it is.
  • Wow Donna! You are in an impressive position with your training schedule. I always find long treadmill runs very tough due to the heat. My gym has some new treadmills which have fans but there are pretty pathetic and don't help much.

    And I agree with you about race day - everything seems so much easier. I think it's the combination of tapering training, drinking loads of fluids, resting the day before etc.

    My humble training schedule brings me a 10k race this Sunday, then next weekend is my first 3 hour run. I may try the run 10mins, walk 2mins idea - just to see what it feels like. Somehow it is a less daunting prospect than running for 3 hours, even though the running bits will be faster than if I ran all the way.
  • Puggers you misunderstand, I can see why reading what I wrote again. I'm worried that what people say about it all being okay on the day won't apply to me. I've nerver run further in a race than I've practised for. Half marathon is my longest race and I've trained over and above 13 miles before the race. But I agree the tapering makes you fresher.

    That's why my runs are long - sheer panic really. And the fact that the other person in my house runs that far so I don't want to seem pathetic by running less.

    Good luck in your race on Sunday Puggers - anyone else racing this weekend?



  • I was going to do a Half Marathon on Sunday. But as I'm away next weekend, and doubt I'll be able to run much, I figure getting in the long runs is more important. April is looming....
  • Donna, I re-read your message and see now what you meant!

    But don't worry - you sound so organised with your training that I'm sure you'll be fine on the day. Remember that in training you're always thinking about the future training and the race ahead of you, which can all seem quite daunting.

    On the day of the race, you can just focus on the race, and somehow everything will seem to slot into place. I am hardly Mr Experience, but am thinking about my past 1/2m races - I have always run much faster and better than I did in training.
  • Hi guys. Hope the runs went well today. I had a really good 10k race today near Cardiff - everything seemed to slot into place. The weather was cool, wind not too strong, and the course fairly fast with a few hills thrown in for good measure. Finished in 41.30 with something in the tank. That was a PB by 2 minutes, so I am well chuffed! Hope you'll excuse my exuberance, but you're the ones who understand what it's all about at the moment!
  • Great time Puggers. I've never finished a 10K with anything in the tank so that's some going to take 2 minutes off your PB.

    I completed a just over 18 mile Run/Walk yesterday in 2 Hours 37. I followed the plan of run 10 minutes then walk 2 throughout. I certainly felt more comfortable in the final few miles than I had when runningn the same distance non-stop the week before. My knee hurt again after 2 hours. This injury justs seems to plague me at the moment.

    I doubt though if I'll follow the run/walk system for the race in London. Calculating my overall pace yesterday saw me cover the miles in an average of 8:45 per mile. Just not fast enough for my 3 Hours 45 target time. So I think I'll just use this system for some Long Training Runs but run constant in the race.
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