Stretching

[Deleted User]

Following posts yesterday from MikeS and nrg-b (among others) about when and how to stretch, I thought people might find this link useful. Hartmann is PaulaR's physio so at the top of his profession.

I've tried his approach as it does work. You can feel each stretch getting progressively deeper and the legs feel nice and loose afterwards.

http://www.hartmann-international.com/001articles/stretching.htm

[Deleted User]

Sounds good,
Can this technique be used in place of the standard 30 second 'hold your stretch'?
Also, and just to be a bit sceptical, how come this technique is not more widely promoted (i.e. there must be a million papers telling you to hold the stretch for 30 seconds and none promoting this tech)?

[Deleted User]

Although I respect and admire Hartman's and others work and research and don't doubt his knowledge in this area.
Is he a chartered Physio'?

[Deleted User]

Latest thinking from UK Athletics to us coaches states that stretching does no good.
We find this hard to believe but this is the official line.

Regards,

Max. (Level 2 Coach)

Pammie*

Max I also find that hard to believe though am no expert myself. Do they give a reason for this?

Also post run how long do you stretch for in total. I probably do 10-15 minutes and always wonder if this is long enough.

[Deleted User]

States that if you are used to stretching then carry on but not recommended for newcomers.
Warm ups & warm downs are still essential.

Regards,

Max. ;-)

[Deleted User]

just had a look,it does almost resemble bounceing but with an extra second hold,still i will give it a try .although i am happy with my current flexibility,useing static and pnf to maintain this.if have not stretched after a session .doms appears the next day

[Deleted User]

Max

I'd be interested to know why stretching is not recommended for newcomers? I'm not experienced but would have thought that stretching is really important for newbies. Is that not right then?

[Deleted User]

Max, I too am a level 2 and a colleague of mine is a level 5. I was on the understanding that UK:athletics advice was static stretching was not too good for you but dynamic stretching is essential.

Hartmanns sugested stretches could be viewed as dynamic.

[Deleted User]

scooby snax its a personal choice,which school of thought you beleive in . the acsm which recomend in this order /mobilize joints ,light warm up ,short pre stretch ,re warm which in total should take 5-10 mins, -session- post stretch,this is where you can increase or maintain flexibility, i say thought because without actualy cutting open someones calf muscle during an actual pre/post stretch the scientists can not say for sure

[Deleted User]

Does any one on here practice Pilates and/or yoga and if so what effects do these have on improving core strength and stability and overall flexibility?

[Deleted User]

The same people who promote stretching are the same people that tell people to land on their heels when they run.

Personally, I've always followed the principle of specificity so, I've never seen any point in stretching. I wouldn't tell someone NOT to stretch if they want to, but for me life is too short for some stretching. I'm neither a coach nor a top athlete but that's my view.

Minks

I must admit that I rarely bother to stretch. On the few occasions I have done, I seem to have ended up with niggles and aches where there were none before, so I really don't see the benefit. Despite a gruelling 17 miles yesterday, I can feel very little trace of it today. I was quite stiff yesterday afternoon but that's worn off quite quickly.

Hilly

I do light stretching after a run, but agree it's not necessary. In fact I believe some people over stretch causing themselves injury!

Warming up with easy running and some dynamic stretchinng is a good way to prepare the muscles. Also, cooling down should be done with gentle jogging/walking and IMO with a few light static stretches if wanted.

Seela

Dont do it.
Never done it.
Survived 12 marathons, 14 Mountain marathons, 13 Grizzlys and 16 years of running without it.
Pretentious waste of time.

[Deleted User]

Me neither.

I do a slow jog on either side of my training run, and that's enough for me.

[Deleted User]

Hartmann says "One of the main characteristics associated with runners as they age is loss of range of motion". That's certainly true of me - one of the things I've noticed is that after a prolonged period of high and/or hard mileage my body tightens up considerably, stride length shortens and I become prone to annoying niggling injuries (hip impingements, calf strains and hamstring strains, sore achilles etc). I'm sure this is down to a combination of poor core stability and poor flexibility. As one injury heals another chink in the armour is soon revealed elsewhere. Static stretching is only of marginal benefit so something more active and dynamic is required. The physio' I've been going to has recommended a session with a former professional dancer - the exercise routines he teaches are all geared towards maintaining a high level of flexibility. Have decided to give this a go as I can't afford to waste any more time being sidelined through injury.

popsider

Some people have more natural flexibility than others. If you have sufficient natural flexibility then you may not benefit from stretching - if you don't then you may find stretching helps.

Stretching can also be part of rehabilitating a muscle after injury or if a particular problem like poor posture/repetitive job/age has affected the length of a particular muscle and is causing a problem. To say it is a pretentious waste of time is just wrong - to say that it is possibly not necessary for everyone would be more accurate.

Flexibility is not just about the length of muscles - people's joints differ, some people have naturally tighter ligaments than others etc.

[Deleted User]

I have been doing yoga for about 6 years. I practise a very dynamic form of yoga called ashtanga vinyasa, which builds strength as well as increasing flexibility.
Whether or not it helps running is debatable - personally I don't think it will make me run better or faster. But it is important for general wellbeing, and I also feel very strongly that it helps to prevent injury. It certainly makes me stronger (particularly core strength) and improves balance, which helps to prevent injury when running off road. I think that stretching, or taking part in some kind of activity which stretches muscles, is vital for most people's all round fitness, especially as they get older. I'm only 25, but my grandma is 90, has stretched all her life, and can still pick things up off the floor, tie her own shoelaces without sitting down...she amazes nurses when she goes to hospital, because she doesn't need help getting into or out of bed. Yet most people in this country can't manage to sit crosslegged on the floor after about the age of 40. Being flexible and strong means that you can do so many things, you are comfortable in so many more situations, and it means you physically deteriorate more slowly.

Surely as athletes, runners want their bodies to be in top condition? Being stiff and inflexible just doesn't make sense!

nrg-b

As a swimmer I didn't stretch before or after a swim - but did warm-up and cool-down. When I started running late last summer, I didn't stretch and I was also fine.

But from this year I have regularly stretched after exercise. I think I 'over-stretch' hence all the problems with my lower back & sciatica (three times this year!!).

I had a physio appointment this morning at 7AM :-) He is a chartered physiotherapist and a runner. When I asked him again about stretching (in general) he said that according to the Lancet, researchers had concluded that stretching provided little benefit to muscles. He did warn me to continue with the warmups and cool-downs with gentle jogs. Also stretching would mostly help joints/tendons ie flexibility. I guess stretching could also put you into the right mental frame of mind.

I couldn't find the reference to the article he quoted in the Lancet website but did come across this interesting article at the BBC. Here is the related article from the BMJ - the Rapid Responses are quite interesting!

I think I might try a fortnight of where I do none or very little stretching (ie only a quick 30-60s first thing in the morning)just to see what happens.

I guess you have to follow what best works for you.

popsider

Was he talking about that research that suggested pre-exercise stretching did not help prevent injury?

[Deleted User]

Graham, I've done yoga for a couple of years now, and although I don't do the 'dynamic' form mentioned above, I have found that it has increased my core strength, and improved my flexibility and posture, especially in my shoulders, which always tended to hunch during a run.

My balance is also better, because some yoga postures require balancing which automatically increases strength in particular muscles, rather like using a swiss ball during gym exercises.

nrg-b

popsider: I honestly can't remember. I'll see him next Monday so will ask again.

[Deleted User]

its intresting , for those amongst us who do stretch ,im sure you would like to think you were doing the right thing.the simpleist way i could say that stretching is beneficial. is i have personaly watched people improve .i e touching your toes .not being able to then three-six months later can reach them.is that not proof that stretching improves rom, and is beneficial?

[Deleted User]

It proves that if you stretch you will become better at stretching. It doesn't prove that stretching will keep you injury free or make you faster.

In fact, I've never felt the need to touch my toes while out running. If any time I get an urge to touch my toes, whether it be to scratch them, or wash them or to cut the nails I usually find I can reach them by bending my knees. Useful things, knees. Having them means you don't have to keep your legs straight all the time.

[Deleted User]

i have to disagree ,bazza.it proves that if you stretch for the purpose of touching your toes ,you will eventualy achieve this.that is as clear as black and white, weather you bend your usefull knees or not .regards yoi

[Deleted User]

I said as much in my first sentence. I have no doubt that if I practiced toe touching everyday I would become better at it. However, I do have a lot of doubt that this would make me a better runner.

If you like stretching or yoga or whatever then that's great. I wouldn't tell anyone to stop doing something they enjoy, but IMHO stretching is no more relevant to running than playing the cello.

[Deleted User]

sure,bazza but for some of us we may run a bit more comfortably.which in turn could make us run that little bit better?

popsider

I'd disagree with you there Bazza. Like I said over the page, it may not be useful to you at the moment - but it is of benefit to some people and may be to you one day. Look at all these people on here with ITB trouble - if it gets tight it can cause problems and one way to avoid that is stretching - I mean I could go on listing ways in which stretching is relevant to running but I'm sure you see what I mean.

[Deleted User]

True to a certain extent Bazza. Sport specific flexibility comes into it. But there is always the unexpected, what happens when your running muscles get tired and start to tighten at the end of a race or you land awkwardly. The extra flexibilty from being very good at touching your toes could mean the difference between torn fibres and not torn fibres.

Playing the cello with your feet would, IMHO, make you more flexible and improve your joint ROM therefore making injury less likely.

Stretching ia down to the individual. If it works for you do it, if not don't.

[Deleted User]

Well I play the guitar, though not with my feet, and I'm not sure if it's ever helped me with my running.

I do little or no stretching. Every day I have to make a decision about running and like most people I only have a finite amount of time in which to 'train'. For example, if I have an hour I have to decide "do I run for an hour or do I run for 40minutes and spend 10 mintues before and after stetching?" I have to consdier the benefits of running for an extra 20minutes or the benefits of stretching for 20minutes. The extra running always wins.