Getting my 5k under 20 minutes / Strategy

Zola365

Hello folks, I am new around here. Hoping for some tips from those who know a lot more than me!

I am not really a runner, but over the past couple of months I have been jogging once or twice a week. I also do the occasional park run on Saturday mornings.

I am an office based worker, but I am an active person at night and weekends.. I do BJJ three times a week often for 2 hours at a time, I also play football on Wednesday nights and try to squeeze in strength training at the gym twice a week.

I have an ambition to get my 5k under 20 minutes. The best time I have gotten in 21.15. I am usually in and around the 21 mark and I am going pretty hard (for me!).

What do I need to do to get this time down under 20? I am juggling a lot of hobbies, so I know I cant do them all, and something has to give. I don't know if I am overdoing it in some areas, or what I need to do.

Would a session of sprints up long hills once a week and a 5k run be enough to get speed in my legs?

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks

DT19

what is bjj? How old are you?

It seems you don't really do any running at all and are running 21 minutes just off fitness gained from other sports. Simply popping up with an eyeballs bursting session once a week will help, simply because with the amount of running you do any running will help. To get better at running you simply need to run a bit but not necessarily fast.

5k is fundamentally an aerobic event so it is that system that is powering you and needs developing. I am assuming that you can already run faster than 7 min mile pace so it's not speed in your legs as such.

Have a look at a couple of 5k schedules to get an idea of what is needed in the first place.

Zola365

BJJ is Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, a grappling sport. It gets the heart rate up!

I am 32, man... 5ft 11, 78kg.

Do you think hill sprints would be beneficial?

Or should I look to do a longer run at a slow pace, and then one really tough one?

I did a run on Sunday night up and down a hilly road. for 5k I was right on the 22 mark, but the hills took it out of me.

DT19

Is your parkrun uphill?

Zola365

Only a very small part of it. Would long hill sprints not make me faster and tougher in general ? 

Sub17ParkRun

6 to 10 mile long run @ 8 minute mile pace to build endurance.
Easy 4 to 5 mile runs @ 7:30 to 8:00 mile pace.
Hill repeats to build strength to handle hilly runs.
200 or 400m repeats on track to build speed.
weekly Park Run or tempo run between 1.5 to 2.5 mile tempo run @ 5km race pace.

DT19

similat to above, with all your other training I'd think 3 runs a week. So long, up to 7 miles of your sole aim is 5k at 8-8.30mm.

Perhaps a fartlek run of 5 miles where you do some hill speed ups. Then a dedicated pace session which you vary so perhaps warm up and cool down and then 3 miles at threshold (but slower than 10k pace) or 3 x 1 mile at around 5k pace etc.

I don't think a dedicated weekly hill session is that important. 

Also, get out of the habit of Making every training run a race. 

Zola365

Thanks guys. 

I think Tuesday night is a night I can get a run in. Along with parkrun on Saturday and possibly easy run on Sunday night. Sunday night would have to be my easy run as Saturday is park run day. 

What way would you prioritise the runs ?

DT19

You don't need to park run every week, or if you do, it doesn't need to be flat out. You could use parkrun as a threshold session one week etc. You could also make parkrun a longer run as by the time you've warmed up and cooled down, you are on 5 miles anyway.

The main thing with running is consistency. If you committed to running 3 times a week over a sustained period, then at your stage, regardless of how hard or easy you run, you would get better.

Zola365

Thanks guys

What would you think about this schedule:

Monday - BJJ (2 hours)
Tuesday - Gym (Strength Training), Run (5 miles, gentle/easy run)
Wednesday - Football
Thursday - BJJ (2 hours)
Friday - Rest
Saturday - Parkrun / Fast Run
Sunday - Gym (Strength Training), Long gentle run

DT19

It looks utterly exhausting and I'd be surprised if you don't end up over training and ill or injured.

Zola365

You are probably right ! I went to a one hour class last night then did a very gentle 5k at 5:30km/h pace. Football tonight. I am starting to feel myself getting fit, the jogging is helping, but I don't know if and when I am overdoing it. The problem is I want to do it all!

On Monday I just sat in and didn't do anything to have a good rest, I may just have to adjust as I feel.

DT19

The problem with overdoing it, is that it actually stifles improvement. Your body cannot absorb the training and adapt as it is constantly getting hammered. Google 'signs of overtraining' for example.

Zola365

I fear you have been absolutely bang on DT19.

I pulled some muscle in my lower right back last night at football. I think the runnning has just tipped me over into the injury zone  

DT19

I'm sorry to hear that, Zola.

The thing is, it isn't like you are training too hard with cycling etc. Your two other sports are very physical. 

If you want to run and improve something else will need to give.

Jake Fricker

Hi

I was in a similar situation to you. There are a few things that got me under 20min 5k.

3 runs a week is key:

1 easy run of 10K you should be aiming for 50mins + to build endurance
2 Intervals or hill repeats- 1 mile warm up and cool down with 4x 400m and 2x 800m and 1x 1600m at 5k speed in the middle for example
3 Tempo run- push it hard for 5k in the middle of a 30min run

Another thing that shaved of the final 30 seconds for me was cadence training. There is a lot of debate about 180 steps per minute. I put together a 5k training audio track. You can find is on youtube if you look for 180bpm5kchallenge. This will help you keep you focussed for 20 mins...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pQxCOSJgTc

Good luck!

Jake

DT19

why 180? I've just done 10 miles at very easy pace and my cadence was 182. I did a 10k Sunday and was 196. I've never considered mine was particularly high. 

Jake Fricker

180 SPM is the average cadence of middle and long distance athletes. This is a good article on it: http://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/the-great-cadence-debate

196 is very fast and I would say difficult to sustain over a long distance. It sounds like you may not be travelling very far with each step or maybe the measurement is inaccurate. I use a foot pod with my Garmin to track mine.

There are two main things runners can to to go faster- more steps per minute or travelling further with each step.

To increase your distance travelled with each step you need to focus on engaging your glutes and pushing off from behind (not reaching out further in front as this will cause injury).

HA77

Didn't you know, 180 is the magic number for everyone?

My opinion is that you should focus on good form and let you cadence be whatever it is. You can run at 180spm and still have bad form.

DT19

So at 10k I did 196 with a stride length 1.28m. No idea what is a good stride length but I am going to assume height comes into play?

In the London marathon this year my cadence was 192 and stride length 1.2m.

I am using a garmin 620 so a  fairly common device.

Jake Fricker

For my London Marathon I was average cadence of 168 with a stride length 1.33 according to Garmin 235 with foot pod- this got me round in 3h 09min. I am 5ft 10in.

Professional athletes get an extra meter out of every step- yes 2.3m+!!!
http://www.livestrong.com/article/438560-the-average-stride-length-in-running/

Clearly I have a lot of work to do to be able to sustain a cadence of over 180 for a marathon distance, whilst leaping a lot further with every step.

Sounds like you have good twitch fibres so your legs can move very fast and you have no need to focus on cadence. Perhaps building up glutes by doing lunges and some hill repeats will boost your power.

DT19

Yes, I have seen the elites in races and they just gobble up the ground! Im 5'8 and got 3.04 in London so not much between us.

Jake Fricker

Nice! So close to sub 3h! No doubt you will be going sub 3 next year...

DT19

yeah plan was sub 3.05 and did 3.04.45. I am doing Birmingham in October just to keep the endurance up so when I pick it up for London again in December I am in a good place.

literatin

That article linked to above does not say 180 is the average for elites, it says that '180 or more' tends to be misquoted as 'everyone should aim for 180'. As a small female runner I find it reasonably efficient to run long distances with a high cadence, though both cadence and stride length increase at faster paces. I race marathons at about 195 and other distances at 200+. I tend to agree with HA77 though that form is more important than hitting an arbitrary number and that cadence is probably most useful as a cue to avoid overstriding.

To the OP - you'll improve easily by just doing more easy running, perhaps also as a warm-up/cool-down for your other activities.

Jake Fricker

I'd agree. There is no one size fits all.

https://arunnersguide.com/2013/08/13/sprinting-cadence-power/

In this article Fraser-Pryce is listed with a cadence of 286 spm VS Bolt's221 over 100m- perhaps females have more ability to move their legs faster.

180spm is a good target for casual runners to get up to- I can only maintain it for 5k, but if I can keep pushing at that tempo for 10k or a half I know I will get a faster PB.

literatin

I'm still a bit unconvinced by the deliberate aiming for a specific cadence thing, but that's only based on a sample of one, since 180 is my natural easy run cadence and always has been. So I do it because it's easy, not because I'm pushing for a specific tempo.

Jake Fricker

If you are already over 180 spm you don't need to worry. I am in my 40's so keeping at 180 is a challenge.

There are two ways to run faster- faster steps or longer strides.

HA77

If your cadence is over 180 and you have poor form you still need to worry. There are no shortcuts.

I don't think age comes into it. And from what I've read height doesn't make a huge differencee either (based on looking at elites).

My easy runs are at about 170, increasing to about 180 at half marathon pace.

Sub17ParkRun

The faster you run, the faster your cadence/stride rate. Walking and easy runs at slower pace your feet spend more time on the ground and the pace is slow and the cadence/stride rate is low.  Sprinters stride rate is high because their feet spend little time in contact with the ground. Long stride and high stride rate enables sprinters to cover more ground in shorter time possible.

RunningFastr

This is a good training plan for a sub 20 min 5k:
http://www.runningfastr.com/5k-training-plan/sub-20-5k-training-plan/

The sessions in it are tailored to your required race pace.