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I found the whole Pose discussion thread very useful and, when starting to run midfoot, tried to follow various bits of advice (e.g. consciously thinking about leaning, lifting with hamstrings etc). After the first couple of runs I settled into my own style, which may or may not incorporate any of the Pose elements. My only conscious thought now when I feel my form going is 'bouncy bouncy trampoline' (© nrg-b, 2005).
A key point is that they are designed for ‘all weather’. That little bit of softness allows spikes to dig in and provide grip. I’m not sure its necessary for ‘protection.’
Puma H-Streets:
One of Pumas current distance spike designs, but with a few mm of firm EVA and a rubber outsole instead of the spike plate. I think running in these on road is much like running in spikes on track.
Protection from shoes:
“If we didn't need protecting from the road WE WOULDN'T WEAR SHOES.”
Our bodies are very adaptable. If we didn’t wear shoes we wouldn’t need the protection.
Running shoes increase motion problems compared to barefoot running (e.g. more pronation etc.) so whilst they may reduce overall force magnitudes (which is also debatable due to adaptations in technique), the forces in ‘anatomically problematic’ directions may be increased.
The development of more ‘advanced’ running shoes has not been associated with decreased injury rates in runners.
The present crop of GB experts:
Whilst they have some valuable knowledge and experience, I don’t think they are getting everything right (otherwise we’d be producing more top runners). The Ethiopians work a great deal on speed / form and are the top nation at the moment. We don’t work on form and are pretty poor with just a few exceptions.
NRG-B - You are a hero to me! :-D
I can safely say after last nights treadmill run that I am a LONG way from being a Pose runner. My heel lift is appalling! Something to work on...
I confess my interest is in speed over the distance - I'm confident I could run a marathon either barefoot or in Nike Air Fatboys no trouble if I took it slow. I want to find the fastest way (for me).
Injury prevention is about using your head - shoes and technique are just 2 of a huge number of factors in this.
(err, yes I am injured at the moment)
H-streets - great for club night as you can wear them to run and then wear them straight to the pub - no need for two pairs of shoes!
Bon Anniversaire to the Pantman Clan too!
I had a quick panic before realising there are more than three months until our anniversary, and the next day of note is Father's Day. Must leave some subtle reminders around the house...
Whoops - going off-topic there. To bring it back on track, I'm running in Nike Jarowe Waffles today. I've decided they're not my favourite minimalist shoes due to them coming up a little small in a 10, the unnecessary padding around the heel and the rubber 'spikes' not being the best grip for road running. Much better grip than H-Streets off-road though. Not that you can get them anymore, so it's a bit irrelevant (although I'd probably try them again in a half size up).
SVT: You have 3 months - buy a prezzie now! Guess who has forgotten to do this :-(
BTW, I ran in NB150s to work this morning as a final bit of comparison with the Puma H Streets.
I'll have to eat some humble pie :-)
Pumas definitely feel softer, yield better to footfalls and feel much lighter (though how I can physically tell whilst running I do not know!!). But for similar HR I ran faster in NB150s. And I'm still concerned about Puma's durability. I will continue to mix and match (and I don't mean wearing different shoes at the same time).
However, i find 150s springier, faster and far better grip in wet. All round a better shoe (for me at least)
h-streets look best though
RunningAcolyte: Good idea to take your time to adapt to minimalist shoes.
nrg - I only have one pair of h streets. They've probably only done 200m max running (plus lots of walking) so my wear comment is perhaps not valid - though they look only minimally worn.
Surface seems to affect wear - track intervals being the worst - I now do mine (once in a blue moon) in old burned up 150s. I'm trying to get a hole right through the sole of a pair - I'm close, but haven't broken through yet! Makes rocky descents a little uncomfortable!
My Adistar Comps arrived this morning - the sole is full of holes already! Bizarre styling. They feel good walking round the living room, but will they get me round Amsterdam in under 2.35 this October?
I mainly run in NB RC150s which I find close to ideal, and which are extremely comfortable. My only quibble with them is that they have a small (but problematic for me) amount of arch support which becomes more pronounced as the cushioning in other areas (like under the ball of the foot) compresses/degrades over time.
I tried some H-Streets recently which initially felt great because they have no arch support. However, unfortunately they have a seam which rubs the top of my feet just behind the big toe, which causes me to tense up and stops me running with "relaxed legs". The outcome of this is that I run slower for the same heart-rate and I seem to get a lot more leg-muscle damage (much soarer legs afterwards).
Personally, I reckon the ideal shoe is one that is as minimalist as possible whilst still keeping your feet comfortable and relaxed. I don't think cushioning is the issue - I think it is more about:
1. Getting a good fit and having a non-slip lining inside the shoe so that your feet don't slide about
2. No pressure points or rough seams
3. No arch "support" or achilles "protector"
4. Enough flexibility to let your feet move as if your were barefoot
5. Just enough protection and cushioning to keep out thorns and glass, whilst still letting your feet feel the ground.
That's my slight worry with the 150s - I'm going to have to try them with and without insoles a few more times. 'With' is a tighter fit, whereas 'without' seems better in general but leads to soreness on my left instep (after only 4 miles or so).
'Best fit' is a very personal matter, and I favour the H-Streets so far on that score. However, for ultimate comfort and top score on all 5 points above it's got to be the Teva Protons. With time I may feel happy to use tehm for all my running.
In a similar vein, I have been tempted to cut some "Nike Free" style grooves into the soles of my H-Streets to improve their flexibility, and to cut away the part of the shoe that rubs and causes blisters (although I'm a bit scared they might just fall apart if I do). I'm also toying with the idea of sticking in a more grippy lining - having removed the inner soles, I find lining beneath quite slippy.
It sounds a bit extreme, but perhaps these sort of modifications are the way to go until someone gets round to releasing a really good shoe for mid-foot runners?
I'm interested to hear your enthusiasm for the Protons - I have been thinking about trying something along these lines for a while. I was always a bit worried that comfort would not be a strong point (ie that they would either rub or that my feet would slip around inside) or that they would not be very breathable (and would make my feet very hot). Can I ask why you don't currently feel happy to use them for all your running? Is it just the lack of cushioning? (And, if so, could you not modify them by adding some bits of mouse-mat to the soles where required?)
BTW can you still buy the Teva Protons?
Has anyone else tried these sorts of modifications, and if so, were they successful?
I don't use them for all my running at the moment because:
a) I've currently got five pairs of shoes on the go and I'm trying to give them all a fair trial before relegating any to 'gardening use only'.
b) They're so different to any of my other minimalist shoes that they are taking a little getting used to. For the first five minutes of running in them I tend to look for the nearest patch of grass to run on before I feel comfortable enoughto tackle the concrete/tarmac that makes up most of my route.
And they seem to be pretty widely available - I bought mine recently after doing a quick Google search for stockists. £25 was the bet I found.
running shoes contribute to both injury and slower running, how may we produce a shoe to fit
your feet?
We shall do this by taking a typical pair of running shoes, and reconstructing them to the correct
specifications."
I find I'm generally too lazy, but at least with cheap flats it's not too frightening to make mods. I've tried a bit of achilles padding (a la pirie) and it felt quite good, but I did a poor job of it, and have not ever suffered there anyway, so lost interest. Knifing out the less agreeable bits of cushioning seems like a good step - let us know how it goes.
Apart from during very dry seasons, I'd have thought you will generally find that soil/sand/grass/peat/etc all have some natural give in them. Our feet will have evolved with this terrain - once we came down from the trees that is :-).
As a result I think we actually do need a some give in our shoes in order to actually simulate this natural "give" when we are running on hard man-made surfaces. Our feet are probably expecting it. At the same time though we don't want to remove the ground reaction feedback that stimulates our bodies ability to absorb shock through the plantar, calf, bent knee, quad, etc chain of body parts.
So a few mm of firmish cushioning is important. It also helps spread the load amongst the metatarsal heads.