Howdy, Stranger!
Categories
The materials in this website are in no way intended to replace the professional medical care, advice, diagnosis or treatment of a doctor, qualified personal trainer, therapist, dietitian or nutritionist Runners's World, Part of the Hearst UK well-being network © Copyright 2017
Comments
i like SL's post more than mine. very succinct and clearly knows more about it than my waffle!
i'd just say maybe for us creaky or older types, u should mix it up with one week dropping park run to focus on a "session" type long run (so many options to keep it interesting), but the other week u could do park run, plus more traditional LSR. Or 2 weeks on 1 week off in terms of HARD long runs. i think a "session" long run, plus mid week MLR tempo is quite hard to keep up week after week for those of us prone to injury - but yeah you make big gains.
TR - dont get me wrong, the injections have worked miracles. Gone from a 9 or 10/10 on the pain scale (i.e. unable to sleep) to more like 2-3. But the nerve damage /compression is still there so still very weak on my left side, and still just not quite "right" in my neck. i am nt sure as well if it will all just come back once the steroids wear off which is a worry. Still it's promising at the moment, and i know i can have one more injection if needed which is preferable to heading down the surgical route. hopefully time and the body will do its healing eventually.
Just a drop-in to suggest that Wardi consider following a plan such as P&D or probably better suited to you would be plan A in Daniels book. It straightforward to follow in that it prescribes 2 sessions per week, one of which is usually your long run and you fit in the rest of the miles however you like. It also tells you what % of your peak mileage you should be running each week.
It will challenge you in areas that you probably haven't worked on too hard for a while but that's a good thing! The plan is nominally for 24 weeks but the first 6 are all easy running with a few strides in the second 3 weeks. If you haven't got a copy of the book pm me your email address and I'll send you on the plan.
Wardi - sounds like the mojo has taken a bit of a battering. Not sure I'm in the position to offer advice considering my autumn marathon was almost 40 mins slower than my spring one. But what I have learnt is that taking a few weeks off to recharge the batteries is a pretty good way of getting you chomping at the bit to get back out there. How about moving your long run to Saturday, and occasionally building your parkrun into it? Marders does that often and he does alright.
HR -- actually I haven't done Hadleigh -- hope your races go well though.
Wardi -- I'm younger than you (43), and while the typical performance slope is definitely downwards at my age, it is certainly more so at 50+. But I thought I was heading for a downward drop off my marathon plateau after doing 2:44:47 then 2:42:38 twice in London -- surely that was telling me I had no improvement to make -- but then PBd by 4 mins last time. So you might yet surprise yourself.
I'm not planning to run today, but about 20 mins ago the courier dropped off my shiny new bike. Just about to get it out of the box! It's not that sporty, but should be quicker than my old MTB/hybrid, but is really geared up to winter commuting, shopping, and training rides when I fancy it. It is one of these but blinged up with very nice hub dynamo lighting for those dark commutes, and a few other upgrades.
Monthly stats:168 miles at 7:28/M average, 1 minor race (and win), 14 rest days.
Selbs - well that sounds better than I was thinking. the big drop in pain reduction is good news for starters.
Wardi - maybe you should start with looking at what the full camapign of training looked like this time. I cant remember if you follow a schedule, or do your own thing. If like me you do your own thing then its possible that you might have neglected to do a few things that either dont fit into your life well or you dont enjoy, I'm guilty of doing this at times, as I try to make it fit my life better - which isnt wrong, but can neglect what might do us good. I need to put more intensity into my swim/bike and run training at times and do proper session, but like to fit training into commutes etc
Wardi - Lots to mull over there and I'm not sure I can add much. My thinking would be that in the short term, a change is as good as a rest and maybe just force yourself to train differently in the medium term, in whatever way, and see what comes out. Then when you need to focus on proper marathon training again, maybe top-load your efforts into those couple of key sessions (long run plus looong tempo efforts) and keep the rest relatively easy/recovery?
Padams - That looks like, er, fun! Whilst I'm off running and thinking about rowing fitness, I'm also putting a little more effort into my spinning classes (and doing about 3 a week) but the structure normally involves doing whatever the instructor says (usual mix of hills and sprints) and occasionally disobeying when I feel the need. I should probably borrow back my turbo trainer so that I can concoct my own indoor sessions over the Winter.
I'm pleased to see that track sessions at the velodrome will now be all year round (due to the newish surface making it rideable when damp) for a reasonably high-intensity work-out, which makes things more interesting than just going for a couple of long rides at the weekend.
Wardi - how about outlining a typical week? Progression of phases/sessions over a buildup?
TT - "..........progression of phases/sessions over a buildup......." that kind of shows me that I've never trained properly for anything !
likewise TR. my progression of phases is more like a T20 cricket batting innings graph with lots of wicket maidens for the injuries in the middle.
TR - Same here, makes me wonder if I should spend more time thinking and planning training, but I hate all that, I'm more Forest Gump than Jack Daniels.
OS - I believe the jury is well and truly out on the benefits of strengthening...or should I say on core stability strengthening. (If you mean legging it up hills, then I'm a big believer).
Did a bit of research and amid all the zillions of pages painting a glorious picture of how core strength is the answer to everything is ONE study of 20 runners. They put them in two groups.... One was really crap (ave 28 mins for a 5k) and one a bit crap (ave 24 mins). The really crap group did core strength and trained, the crap group just trained.
My logic tells me that the really crap runners would improve faster than the crap runners anyway and that the experiment is fatally flawed. Anyway the really crap runners improved by 12 secs/mile. So make of that what you will.
I have no doubt that core strength can have a placebo effect which may even motivate runners to train harder and faster because they believe they can. However, I'd love to see whether core strength has ever improved a top runner who has trained full on for years.
I've not once hit the wall. Did a fast 22 miler on Sunday morning off a single banana for brekkie, again with a 2,000 cal debt from the previous day and only found myself feeling spent right at the end.
I'm thinking that I'm overestimating how much energy goes into each mile - could it be, say, 80 cals/mile? I'm not dropping weight quite as much as I thought and I'm measuring my intake. Most strange.
LD. Interesting comments you make re "science' behind strengthening. My n=1 observation is that I was “indestructible’ until I was around 41, and then had a long series of painful Achilles, knees, etc. The reasonable hypothesis offered by (look away) my physio was that I needed to strengthen muscles beyond those immediately used in running, which naturally diminish with age. When I first started doing high reps/ low weight squats, lunges, etc. etc. I was genuinely shocked at how feeble I was. A few years later I am back to feeling indestructible. I think this is as scientifically robust as any other nonsense that passes for Sports Science.
LD. I am very impressed that you can tolerate this regular starvation regimen. I eat almost all the time, mostly fruit, and exercising three times a day I seem to keep a steady weight. So my (serious) question is wouldnt it be easier to just not get fat in the first place?
Of course, but that's too sensible.
I'm eating 95% carbs I would guess. Porridge, muesli mainly. So, every mouthful is destined for my muscles (and brain ... actually, maybe that explains it!). If I'm replacing the carbs and burning off 50% in blubber then I shouldn't feel hungry or depleted should I? A lot of my running is slow.
Anyone of Italian descent, or who can speak a word or two of their language (Wardi, knowing how to whisper I love you in latin doesn't count).
Me and Er Indoors are thinking of trying to enter this half-marathon near Genoa on sunday.... but simply no idea whether we'll be crashing some regional championship or running with loads of animal dressed charity runners, or will be put on the next bus and told never to darken their village again. I believe you need a letter from a doctor.... but that's not beyond the wit of man.
http://www.gpcartotecnica.it/
Wardi, lots of advise to consider. I have a dodgy left foot which regularly give me gip, and in 2007 and 2008 I was told by my GP, a podiatrist and a physio (and family!) to pack in running. It's taken ages to get some consistency back, but the "enjoyment" of the marathon campaign/experience is what keeps me sane. Good luck with the physical and mental recovery.
LD -- I've noticed the Garmin 310XT reckons I've burnt far fewer calories per mile if I use the HRM than if I haven't, even though I've told it about my low MHR. In general they're only using empirical algorithms and individuals will differ significantly in running economy. I know I got about 5% faster by improving my technique a few years back, and I guess I'll have burnt about 5% fewer calories per mile as a result -- but my Garmin doesn't know that. I do tend to get a bit lighter in full-on training, but not much -- and I certainly don't feel like eating another 1000 kCal a day in an 80-mile week, which in principle I should. Maybe the calorie estimates are more correct for mid-pack joggers then refined afleets who've worked hard to optimise their running efficiency... who knows. You'd have to go through a test with measured oxygen in and CO2 out to get a better idea.
Thanks for the suggestions/advice all. Everything from a sympathetic pat on the back to a slap on the wrist is welcome.
DanA.. I have to go to work straight after the Park Run so sadly can't incorporate it into anything else. FYI you will be pleased to know that I ran Frankfurt in a Xempo ambassadorial role sans shirt. You will also note from this finishing photo that that the chap next to me is showing a classic 'Asian gurn' as he crosses the line..
http://www.marathon-photos.com/scripts/photo.py?template=MPX2&event=Sports/GKDE/2013/Frankfurt%20Marathon&bib=3034&photo=FMPE2234
Birch.. I think we should creep into Martin Rees' back garden one night and see what sort of spinach he's growing. 55:02 for 10m at 60, blimey!
Selbs.. in terms of weight I dropped from 12st 4lbs in the spring to 11st 10lbs for Frankfurt. I remember being 11st 6lbs for one FLM, I did feel quite thin though! Hope you make some progress BTW, you're due a bit of luck.
Charlie.. I didn't decline at all from age 41-51, it's the last 3 years which have shown a decline.
SL.. spot on, my weakness is probably a lack of variation in a long run - sometimes I will do a few miles steady before a club handicap event (5-8m), race that then a few more miles afterwards. I suppose what I'm saying is that I prefer a race/have a number on to do the quicker stuff.
PP.. a longish tempo run (10m to half-m pace?). When Steve Smythe was coaching me in 2008 I think we started at 4/5m and built up to about 8m. Is that long enough?
Dids.. I need to import some of your optimism. I was looking at my Garmin records from 5 years ago and I see a solo 21m training run at 7:09 pace and the Kingston Breakfast 16m at 6:48 pace. The reason that I have an unshakeable feeling that I can somehow get some of that form back is because it is only recent history!
Thanks for the chin ups. I am a cheery sort of bloke so I don't let this sort of thing get me down even if I am smouldering inside a bit. I do intend to mix my training up simply because what I used to do isn't working any more. I have a club 5m race early Jan and the Brass Monkey half in late Jan so will work towards those. I see RS, Runinman & Njord are on the BM start list, anyone else?
In the meantime I go on a week's hol on Saturday, 7 days with chums romping around the Sierra de Aitana hills in southern Spain. Beer & wine in the evenings no doubt. Just about to go for my first post marathon run. Legs have never felt better post race so I clearly wasn't trying hard enough!
LD - I know a bit of Italian (not much, GCSEs were a while ago!). Looks like a smallish local race - can't find last year's results but course record is 66 mins so might be some decent runners (200 euros for a course record if you can find an extra 10 mins from somewhere!). I expect you've worked that stuff out for yourself though, as half of the words are fairly obvious!
By the way, I estimate around 100 cals/mile for me, so probably equivalent to 80-90 for you (being a fair bit smaller than me).
Wardi - I like to keep a variety of distances on rotation on my "tempo day", generally from genuine lactate threshold runs, 4/5M, up to the good old Coro 10 miler, which would be done at about MP, or a bit quicker if you're feeling particularly good and want to hit time-trial mode later on in the run. I've found keeping in touch with longer tempo efforts made it easier for me to switch to the longer genuine MP runs when getting into the marathon schedule proper.
Re: calorie counting, the rule of thumb I'm familiar with is 100 calories/mile for a 10 stone normal person, with calorie count varying in proportion to weight. So I guess more efficient runners would be a bit less. IMO the whole thing isn't really worth trying to work out. How many calories do I burn tossing in bed for eight hours at night? Haven't a bloody clue. How do the standard BMR figures vary from person to person? No idea. We've all got several decades of experience telling us how much we eat and how active we are, for given (wildly varying, in my case!) patterns of everyday life, so use that as a base and work it out from there.
Charlie ah, sorry thought you had mentioned Hadleigh.
Wardi as others have said, a P&D programme or similar? I think those midweek runs, either one or T &Th with some speed are important: the sort where you do 12-14 miles with some burning up via intervals or tempo are ball-busting but so valuable. Tend to agree too about slow plodding long runs not doing as much to build endurance as more varied ones. Edit PP above looks pretty damned spot on to me.
LD I'm very tempted by Frankfurt then. There's a naughty part of me that would like to try and carpet bag the Abo V50 and I did quite enjoy the whole experience, but I also love golden October in Germany.
Eating and weight? Oh god. It's so bloody hard and mysterious isn't it? I have a propensity to weight gain which is why I'm watching myself post-Abo and staying slim. Basically I can't really get away with drinking much alcohol, and eating cheese and chocolate, but that's me and I'm hoping when the mileage picks up again I may be fine to let my hair down a bit. 95% carbs is a high proportion though. Couldn't you put some proten, fruit and veg in there and so cut the calories whilst staying full?
As for core strengthening, I think there's now a lot of science to back the notion that during endurance running as your body tires the core muscles become increasingly important. My coach has now got me onto this as part of the plan to beat the marathon fade.
Whilst working on this case I've had Pink Floyd Echoes Live in Pompei and now Animals playing. I'm going to sound like an old fogey but they just don't make them like that any more.
HR - We've got similar tastes in a few things. I'm not sure I could live in a world without chocolate, cheese and alcohol. That's pretty much my three main vices! And Echoes is a cracking tune.
PP "How many calories do I burn tossing in bed for eight hours at night?"
I've no idea either, but no wonder you are good at endurance events, that is impressive.
I'm glad it wasn't just me sniggering...
No wonder my rowing stroke is a bit asymmetric...
It's a miracle you're not blind.
-4.75 in each eye. Not far off!
LD - Marathon Molly who can be found on the Shades thread in training lives and works in Italy, I'm sure she'd translate for you.