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Tmoth - Welcome, I've used the Greg Mcmillian pace calculator which seems to be quite good as it gives a pace range for each type of run. That said I'll confess that I've been prone to getting too obsessed with pace and it's a habit I'm trying to kick. I agree with the other comments that the pace you run for a given type of run is down to how you feel that day, if you've just done a very hard session the day before your recovery run could feel like it's barely above a fast walking pace. Forcing pace is a easy route to get injured....
Wardi - Nice training the last couple of days. I'm not sure what to expect from a 5k given my current lack of speed,it will help me see where I am with a 10k the following weekend. Planning to do a few miles before and after, can you use the course for warm-up/cool-down too or is there somewhere better to run?
Nice (over-distance) 800s Padams
TR - Good going with the early morning MP run. I've just got a copy of the 2014 BAC spring plan (very similar to 2013), ping me a message if you'd like a copy. The session you've just done is in there, but is later on in March sometime I think.
Think I'm back in action now
Easy 6M at lunchtime on Monday passed without drama. Tuesday turned out to be a decent day with 4.4M easy early doors (with a good stretch/roller session after) and then 13M in the evening including a BAC speed session of 10min tempo followed by 16x1min. I was tentative about the fast running, doing the 10min fairly steady (5:55/M) and then treated the 1min reps as a fartlek, focusing on form and turn-over. Speed was a bit variable, as I didn't want to strain myself, but a good session given a) I can away unscathed and b) the conditions were not great (windy and fair amounts of sand on the prom).
This morning I could tell I haven't done any speedwork for a while as I creaking around a very easy 5M recovery run! Still got a bit of hamstring tightness, but hopefully a good sports massage this evening will help that.
Welcome Tmoth.
Good training the last few days for most.
Good to hear your back at it Al_P. Sounds like a good session yesterday.
I've had to take a couple of days off, pain on inside of knee right from the start during Mondays easy run. Didn't feel anything during XC Saturday or Sundays long run. Just been for massage and inside of thigh was very tight and painful when massaged, think a tight adductor pulling on the insertion at the knee. Hot water bottle at hand and hopefully nothing serious and a couple of days rest will see it right.
Great news Al_P
Very nice paces Padams.
Looks like you're very keen for VLM this time around TR. Nice session. What are you expecting at Stubbington?
Interesting Toro. So mileage wise high-70s/low-80s? I think that's far more intensity than I could manage.
Possibly due to the xc/long run back to back A.W.? Fingers crossed it eases quickly.
Tmoth - welcome to the thread, good luck with the sub 3 attempt. 3.08 is a great launchpad for going under 3.
AW - take it easy, I hope the knee sorts itself quickly
Al_P - good news that you're back
TR - sounds like a good session - what does BAC stand for???
DrDave - I am exactly the same as CW & Sweedo. 90% of my training is done on my own, mostly as commutes. But I really value my weekly club track session as it keeps me honest and makes me push much harder than I would on my own. Also useful to gauge where I am wrt other clubmates.
Wardi - nice 5m race (within 13!)
Sweedo - well done on the 22m - hope the club session wasn't too painful!
___________
Monday was my usual double commute (2 x 6miles)
Tues: woke up feeling terrible, thinking I was going down with the cold my other half had. Downed about 10 vitamin pills and hoped for the best. It was my monthly club 5K race in the evening which I had been hoping to break 17mins in for the first time in about 18months. Set off conservatively for 1st mile and since I was actually feeling OK started reeling people in for the 2nd half. Finished strong in 4th for 17.05 (1 sec quicker than last month
)
Today: 2 x 8mile commute (feeling ok today, so think I've dodged the cold
)
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Advice: Sorry if this has been asked 100 times before on the thread, but what shoes do you all use for the marathon. I have just bought a pair of Nike Lunar Racers. Although I am a mid/forefoot runner and most of my shoes are minimal I went for these thinking I can use the heel cushioning if I get tired and my form goes at the end of the marathon - is this being too negative? Other shoes I considered were the Adidas Boosts, Adizero Bostons or Brooks PureFlow. I haven't used the LunarRacers yet so could still take em back.
//Luke: Frankfurt was the first marathon in years that I raced in normal trainers rather than lightweights. I think it did help me maintain my form. I know that the barefoot brigade will howl at the fact that I raced in orthotics (and, indeed, that I use orthotics), but at the end of the day although lightweights work very well for me up to HM, I think that for the marathon, certainly for the next few years, I will stick to normal trainers (for me that is the ridiculously named Supernova Glides, but the orthotics are probably the key for me rather than the trainers!).
Luke - BAC (Bournemouth Athletic Club) who's membership includes Marigold (2:19 PB) and a good smattering of other reasonably fast runners. Known around these parts in the last few years for putting together spring marathon schedule with some fairly brutal marathon training sessions (one a week jobs) ,e.g. 30min@MP/4x5mins fast/30mins@MP and 4x18mins MP. Sessions best done in a group, but considered especially taxing when done solo
.
Shoe-wise, I've heard good things about the Adios Boosts and I'm planning to make them my next race shoe.
Also on the shoe-front, I've done a few miles in my new Ascis Gel-Lyte 33 2's (as recommended by HR) and have found them to be a great easy/long run comfy shoe without too much weight and a nice low heel-toe height difference (6mm) which suits me perfectly
Also need to think about shoes at some point, been using adios 2s as racing flat for the past year but has felt a bit hard on my feet after a half marathon - think the adios boosts are meant to be a bit softer so might have a look at those, anyone here tried them? Even if it's mainly a mental thing do quite like having lighter shoes for faster reps/racing.
Luke: well raced, sub-17 soon I'm sure. Shoe-wise I used New Balance MRC1600s last time -- I'm always greedy for lightness. Most of my training right now is in a slightly clapped-out pair of Adidas Hagios, patched up with Shoo Goo. I'd love to know if the Adidas Boost stuff really helps though; might well be worth a punt.
Glad to hear you're back to it, Al!
Both my Christmas books reminded me that I've not been doing enough speed work. I tried to make amends today with a 1.0 (saw bufo there!)... 0.75... ... 0.25 ... 1.0M inverse pyramid, 0.5M easy recoveries, and a couple of miles tempo. Paces were mediocre with the wind and embarrassing against it, but bagged a useful 12.5M at an average 6:52/M overall, with my 2kg rucksack. Now I just need to do it all about 30 sec/mile quicker, as I once could...
Al_P - fantastic to hear that you're back at it. Sounds like you got some serious swimbling in there too. I've only managed 3k a couple of times and have generally capped it at 2k or occasionally 2.5k (80/100 lengths). Do you measure your HR whilst swimming, and if so how do you think it translates? I've kept up some swimming the last few weeks whilst getting into running, which I think is good for (a) recovery (as RS mentioned) and (b) further aerobic boosting. So I've managed a couple of weeks with 60-70 miles and c9k swimming - though I'm certain my body would give out if I tried to run and extra 20 miles (that's how I've been injured in the past). Think will try to keep up 3, maybe 4, swim sessions a week this mara cycle to see what it does for me. Where do you feel your fitness is after the break? (And separately, could you shoot me the BAC schedule via gmail? Would be curious to have a look.)
TR - seriously well done for getting through the first of those sessions. As Al says, they are rather brutal. Going back to your previous comment, I can see the benefit of keeping your LR slow and having a second smaller interval session in the week - but do make sure to back off early if it feels heavy as those sessions do take it out of you (love the fact that I am saying this to you, given it's traditionally been you who's said it to me!)
DrDave - I recently joined a club (Victoria Park Harriers, given I live close by and most of my runs are along the canal to VP) - though mainly as it allows me to run London this year and I've not done it before. Like others, though, I basically run by myself.
Great running from Wardi, Sweedo and Padams and healing vibes to AW. Tmoth - welcome and I look forward to seeing how you get on.
Bufo/Luke - on the shoes, I have always run in rather heavy Asics Kayanos as these were the first running shoes I was encouraged to buy when I started a couple of years ago. I think I pronate slightly but not so much, but I'm now rather scared to change to new training shoes. That said, I've started using DS Trainers (slightly supportive lighter weight) for tempo runs, and I ran Berlin and Frankfurt in the autumn in DS Racers (the slightly supportive racing flat). I did make sure to do some long runs in them first though - definitely advisable, bufo. Not sure whether either of you pronate - I probably do less when running at MP and could probably get away with more neutral shoes, but I'm hesitant to change things too much in case it has unwanted side effects. Re Jools' point, I ran my first two marathons (Berlin 2011 in 2:51 and Rome 2012 in 2:41) in bloody heavy Kayanos - and it might have been beneficial to maintaining form (esp in Rome, where there are some uphills and cobbles towards the end).
Aiming for another week of around 68 miles or so plus 5 or 6 miles worth of swimming. Then next week will be a proper cutback as that will be a big 3 week block back from injury/7 weeks no running (62m, 68m then this week). Did a big run this morning of 16m, incl around 9 at MP/effort - was tough to get into and not checked yet but think I probably worked down from around 6m/m to around 5:55m/m - and HR prob around or not so much above last autumn's mara HR, which is very encouraging. Perhaps came out slightly low due to it being a bit chilly. Now to rest for a bit. Shin still not perfect so was perhaps a bit much to try... (had only intended on 13 or 14).
Lev/CW/Sweedo/TR/bufo/Luke thanks for advice re training partners and clubs. Have to admit I like being 'unattached' and not too sure how I'd get on with other runners but can definitely see the benefit in pushing yourself and using it as a marker of fitness. Tiptopp I was never suggesting I go to the track and ignore the session just purely about going to a session at all as I've never run on a track before!
Interestingly I've been *quote* 'cyberstalked' as a result of this forum and going out for a run Fri am with 2 other local runners who're both sub 3 runners one 2.40 VLM 2013 so we'll see how that goes not sure I'll be able to join too often due to fitting in with family/work.
TR/AL-P interesting to hear bac stands for what I thought it might as they are my local club. Think I'm right in thinking schedule would be on their website but sounds brutal from what you've said. Certainly know a lot of people have taken a lot of inspiration from Marigold and his story helped me plough on when I was trying long runs last year for first time! Great to hear all good news on the training front AL-P long may that continue, and great session last night TR.
Shoe-wise I've not much to go on as only ever used 2 types started with Nike Pegasus which were just a general trainer I'd used since school when started running bought some Asics gel DS17 and have bought 8 pairs as they are fantisitc for me...although do wear at the back quickly ? due to my form
Jimbob good luck for training up to Paris sure you'll crack 3 with right conditions
8 mile last night with 5x1m repeats at 5.50 pace with 400mrecovery no great shakes but bumpy and windy and legs recovery from first longer run for 4 months at weekend. spin bike tonight as wife working
Also eating porridge often is a good idea. Fills you up without a lot of carbs.
Jools - with you on the trainers for marathon front. However, having worn custom orthotics for the past 10 years in the belief/advice that my feet need them, I've just completed a month of about 80 mpw without them and without any adverse reaction. Early days, but Maybe I was told bollocks by a "sports expert" all them years ago? No, surely not.
Just to add to the comments about the BAC sessions, in my experience it's unusual for clubs to do proper marathon-focused sessions (usually the longest intervals are mile reps). I think at BAC Marigold started doing them and managed to convince some of the others to join him. I don't think it's a coincidence that they now have several sub-2:30 runners in a pretty small club.
Luke - I've moved to lighter shoes over the years and my fastest marathons have been in Nike Streak Racers (not sure if they make them any more). I'm a big Saucony fan though so now do most of my racing in Type As (including the two ironman races I did in 2013).
Some very nice training going on (TR, Sweedo, Wardi etc.) and good to hear Al_P is back at it.
Crossed wires DrDave; I know you didn't say about going to track and ignoring the session - that was my suggestion. You said you were worried that track sessions wouldn't be tailored to your needs, which ours tend not to be, so I just use the track to do my own sessions and ignore the groups ones.
Nicely done on the 5k LS. Sub-17 surely without the conservative start? I do all of my training and racing in racing flats (currently Brooks t7, Asics Hyperspeed and Adidas Adizero Ace). I never did get on with heavier shoes. Like all running, it's about finding what works for you and practicing it. In my case as I train all the time in flats it makes no difference on race day in terms of losing form towards the end.
Interesting Al_P. What weight are they and how flexible? I like the Hyperspeeds, but not the holes in the sole as they soak up water and pick up stones.
It'll come back CW. It always does. I'm in the same boat at the moment.
Padams - I agree. I'd love to be in the vicinity of the Bournemouth guys as I reckon with a group that big all doing the same thing it can only bring you on loads.
20m today including 90mins of {10mins steady/10mins @ HM effort - i.e. started and finished with a steady 10mins}. Big improvement over last week where I struggled with a 6 x 5/5 where the fast was at Mara effort. Still probably the best part of 20s per mile off Amsterdam shape though. Also still getting used to the idea of these 'shorter' long runs.
Wotcha. Lots of very marathon-shaped training going on at the moment, and a quick review seems to suggest more people coming off the bench than falling onto it. Great to see some old faces popping in as well, LS21, LJ and Coro (who can no doubt beat my mara PB again off a couple of Coro 10s and a long run in late March!!)
I'm hoping there is some substance in orthotics because I've just been fitted with some last week, and after a week of wearing them in at walking speed I went for my first run last night. Hopefully the vague foot ache after about 5 miles was just a wearing-in issue, and certainly it felt OK this morning. I'm still staying x-training heavy for the foreseeable future though, until I've got some easy mileage built back up. The XC season is rather passing me by, and I'm not sure I'll be up for the Southern at this stage, but hopefully back for the National. I've paid my deposit for the subsidised accommodation/travel to Nottingham, so I think a jolly will be in order either way.
A new favourite (steady) rowing session at lunchtime: 45 mins progressive, 15 mins sections @ 23, 25 and 27spm. 11,953m total, 1:52.9 pace. (Will try and break the 12k next time.) Bring out the mop!
Al P.. the York Park Run course is around the Racecourse service track (all tarmac) and is about 3k per circuit all told. If this is too tedious then you can run down towards Bishopthorpe and then on to Acaster Airfield which are pleasant country roads. Rowntree Park is very nice too along the river and only 1/2m from the Racecourse. I can give you directions if you fancy either route.
Luke.. I've done three marathons in Lunar Racers simply because I find them comfy, they feel very light and they never damage my feet or toes. Good 5k-1/2m shoe as well. Well done on the 5k BTW.
Cracking runs today TT & Lev.
Using Adios 2's at the moment which are probably the best trainers I've had, mainly because they've lasted a lot longer than other's I've had. I like lighter trainers but most of them don't last past 250m for me. Probably going to get the boost version for VLM so would be interested to know what people think of them if they get a pair.
I take it you live east London Lev? I'm in Stratford, I've probably run past you on the canals at some point. My sunday long runs are pretty much all canal apart from a detour around Hackney marshes and Vicky park.
Club session ruined me last night as expected but did a 14m this morning, even if it was slow. Worth doing just for how good the porridge tasted after.
I was impressed that LJ did the BAC stuff Hans Solo last year, and as a change from "just" commuting I' thought I'd give it a try, I've rarely trained hard with my trainers on. I am running them alone, but I'm not on my own as Ode is doing them as his end too. So I have to keep my end up, if he is keeping his up !
Al_P - the schedule I have is probably good for me as its all mostly long efforts, I only do short reps if I do any usually. Looks like you will do shorter reps and then longer ones later in the schedule. Interesting that you said my session was MP, I guessed at that, and tried for MPish effort on the 24min. I did all of it up and down a measured 2M so I knew how far I'd done in total, and know that I was on ~6:25 pace after 3M of the 24min (although it was progressive pace on the 24min due to the 6am switch from 8mm to MP being tough). I tried to run 2M in the 12min section but was just short (2M took 12:10), no idea on the 8min pace. But doesnt really matter, it was just about time spent in Hywel Towels Hurt box. Backed it up with a bike commute and some 250s in the lido at lunch !
TT - 20 on a school day is nice ! no limits (or idea) for Stubby, kick it hard and see what comes out, depends how I feel on the day I guess. Cant see sub35 being an unreasonable ask by Eastleigh time ?
DrDAVe - good pace on the mile reps, you have decent leg speed. I'm a morning trainer, I did that session this morning. I live 50M east of BAC, I was running on my jack.
Lev - dont worry, either short reps or a short tempo on Friday, I wont be doing 16M of MP in a long run !
TT - I think 60-70 is probable this week I got a few sessions wrong the Fri is Steady AM and then break till Sat PM for a 30min easy bounce (7:30). Sun AM 2hr inc to 2:45 long by March (@7:30-7:45). There is another good break after Mon tired legs 40min @ 6:30-6:45 until track on Tue which is a session tailored to London marathoners.
I did compare to Smartcoach which says easy pace is 7:00 and Daniels which gives 7:22. Next pace for them is marathon pace (6:15). I thought 6:40 would be the evil grey zone but maybe it is current M pace. I think the plan is designed to be dynamic (I only have 2 weeks so far) so paces increase. 6:40 is my current Marathon pace. He has been talking about our current 5:40 track pace being my HM pace in March (currently 6:00).
Nice session!
TR - Part of the course is underwater road closed - I tried to run down there today but had to turn around.
1:15 @ 6:46 for 11.3 miles. Not easy, breathless talking pace. Legs feel fine though (except random blister on sole). I think track will be hard tomorrow.
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Lukestur - Adidas Manas have been light and comfortable (they're lighter than Bostons but not as bad as Adios). Also can find online reduced for £35 without being a mongrel shoe!
Thanks Dids! I think not snacking as much is helping.
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Looks similar TT!
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Tasty target for Eastleigh TR. Very nice! It'll be good to see what you do this year with the change in training; the extra faster running obviously suits you!
Toro - are those SmartCoach and Daniels comparisons also based on an assumed current MP of 6:40 or on target MP?
Nice run, and yes, Charlie Spedding spent some time training with the Boston guys who were coached by Bill Squires (whose approach I am following). I fancy having a crack at some of the surge runs he detailed from that time pre-Edinburgh/
Fingers crossed it does the job for you PP!
I missed your MP run earlier Lev_. Nice work.
Toro - not surprised there's water on that route, might not even clear in time.
TT - got to be under 36 shape now, but we'll see. Chichester and Eastleigh are quick courses so we'll see.
TT - based on goal time 2:44 but also based on current non-marathon fitness. I have converted badly so my 1:18 should be better than my recent 2:55 and in fact that is a vDot conversion. I'll let you know how it goes!
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Nice run along the river this morning CW, did a steady 11 there but calf a bit sore now so didn't double today, will see how it is tomorrow - have had a similar niggle before and it went away pretty quickly so will just wait and see.
Upper calves do often seem to be a bit tender (though not noticeable while running), and very noticeable when using a foam roller or anything similar. Try to do that and calf stretches/exercises regularly but doesn't seem to do much, not sure what else can really be done.
Thank you all so much for the advice on shoes - lots to digest. I'm in London tomorrow so may have to find a big running shop to try on a few of your suggestions.
//Yeesh you people run a lot (and quickly)!
Another question if you don;t mind: Can 'one' break up a midweek MLR into two commutes and still reap the same benefits?
Morning all, been a while since I've posted. I've been flat out with work, family and life and a serious dose of CNBA.
Luke - I'm not a fan of the Boost, I've a tried the sonic and the energy and find them really unresponsive. I like the adios, Mana and boston, i've raced marathons in all 3, personally the adios are my favourite but they give me blisters during a marathon due to being too narrow
TR - Great to see you so fit and planning a quick 10K.
TT - 5KG weight gain puts my 2KG to shame, good to see you targeting a spring marafun.
Toro - You're in great shape at the moment, I would have thought quicker than 2.44.
Lev and AL_P - Fingers crossed the injury woes have cleared up.
Nice to see Wardi still racing and running well.
Padams - You seem as fit as ever.
PP - Good luck, belated congrats on the rowing.
The mojo is back, first 20 of the campaign on Sunday, should clock 90 miles for this week, think I may join the remote BAC team, I don't have an orange singlet though.
Dear Lovely Sub3-ers,
Do you have any tips on making your legs feel "fresher" in time for the next session? Or perhaps I should re-phrase the question. If you train every day and do high mileage, when do your legs get the chance to feel "fresh" ?
Another good 10 mile tempo at m.p today - although the 7.20 average isn't that great as it took a couple of miles to warm up the pins and the hills oh the hills .... some good 7/6.5 trotting for the last 4 miles.
Jimbob - in peak training your legs don't feel fresh. The cumulative fatigue is ultimately helping your muscles and CV system make adaptations to cope with what they're being asked to do. If your legs felt fresh all the time it would mean you weren't training hard enough. It is a question of balance, however, and if your paces are slowing significantly, week on week, you are over-training. That won't produce the same result!
that's kind of the answer I was looking for Jools.
The training paces are where I want them at this stage - although today took me longer to warm up - general fatigue, slightly late night/grumpy in the morning early rise Kids o'clock!