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LS21..good to see you back in the groove & chin up. Sounds a frustrating going on with your niggle but hope to see you at a northern race (or VLM!) soon.
Marvellous reps Bufo, great speed.
A W.. cracking tempo session, going well at the moment.
Nicely done on the 1 sec PB Luke, they all count!
Bedders.. true early doors run! Did you get overtaken by any milk floats?
Good to see Jools making progress.
Yasunaga.. good run for the half, 77 is shifting.
Hope the lurgy shifts soon TR, SL & Charlie.
JH1.. out of interest which painkillers were you upgraded to? Hope they help with mobility (& sneezing!).
TT.. sounds like you're making some progress with the iron levels, nice long run yesterday under the circumstances.
As the weekend forecast is windy & wet again I brought my long run forward to today as I was off work. Conditions were good for a change this morning, light winds, dry & clear - just a couple of puddles to run through. Quite enjoyed a couple of loops of the local villages to rack up 22.1m. Legs were a bit tired after an eyeballs out 6 x 700m club session on Tuesday but pleased to get it done.
Wardi - Upgraded to Naproxin I think and now getting over the worst of it. Great long run by the way.
Mental is an essential part of marathon running especially helped when you know you've put the training in. I think the mental part of my game isn't that great but did have a good one at London in 2011 when my head was in a good place and had a few mantras I used, got me through those last hard 3/4m.
This weather really is pants isn't it. Still pleased that I haven't resorted to a treadmill yet this year with a 6&4 today both times in the rain. Can't tell you how many puddles that involved stepping in for wet shoes and socks.
Can't say I'm enthused about the wind for Chichester on Sunday.
Sounds positive with Watford Yasunaga. Well done.
Good mileage HR. Reading target?
Wow, that's a lot of sprints CW, even if they were short. Nice!
2:52 off of a 35mpw average is impressive DrD. What kind of mileage are you doing now?
"I'm of the sound belief that marathon running is more a case of convincing the mind that it can be done." - sorry MarkyN, but that doesn't wash. If that were the case then the elites wouldn't be running up to (and sometimes over) 150mpw. A strong mental attitude helps, undoubtedly, but it won't run the race for you when your legs turn to mush through lack of preparation. Have you ever tried more miles as most people who say that more miles are not necessarily the answer for them have never experimented?
Generally, imo, whatever result you get would have been quicker if you ran more (obviously up to a limit).
lol LS21. Murder She Wrote. Good to have you posting again
Good thinking to bag the long run early Wardi.
TR - are you still lurgified/is Chichester a no go?
Funny game sometimes running. Yesterday, as mentioned, I slowed significantly during the last few miles of an already slow 22m (overall average was 7:56). This morning I felt shattered, so turned over and went back to sleep and then this afternoon breezed around a 14m @ 7:02. It just felt crazily easy. I honestly haven't had a run like that in months, so hopefully it means things are picking up now rather than just a (positive) blip.
MarkyN -- LS21 (*damn* smiley dropdown doesn't work for me!!) is bang on about keeping a lid on the pace in the first half, when it should just feel ridiculously easy. My best marathons have not been when I've been using my mental strength to overcome appalling suffering; rather, they're the ones where I've felt fittest and fastest, and they've been the most comfortable. I run a geek marathon, very strictly paced. I did Abingdon in 2:43 on an average 40mpw once (but with a couple of 50-60M weeks included in that average). I'd drop some of the short fast runs if necessary to bag longer long runs -- 20M isn't really enough to prepare for the "second half" of 6M, and the Embankment is always littered with great club runners who've conked out with a few still to go. Is running your commute an option?
Nice long run Wardi.
This evening I suddenly didn't feel ill, and did the minimal 3.2M home a shade quicker than 7m/M with my rucksack, which felt like epic tempo stuff by recent standards. Hopefully I'll be on for some decent weekend training now. Glad to hear things better for you too TT.
Hi all, i'm running again after last week being completely off. I ran the Navy XC yesterday and finished a useless 12th with a sky high HR and general lethargy. I still beat most i'd expected to just disappointed I couldn't perform but as off days go it was a better day to have one on. RHR this AM high but still bashed out 90 min this PM. I'm just going to take it easy and monitor RHR as I feel fine in my body at the moment.
I will read back at the weekend; a drive to Plymouth and back in the dark, rain and wind is not great for relaxing although apparently if you take longer than 3hrs you're not a real sailor (2:45/2:55)! A different Sub 3 challenge!
https://totriornottotri.wordpress.com
With regards to the mental side of things of course mental toughness has a huge part to play in Marathons & endurance sports.
Or is "toughness" the right way to describe it ?
Mentality is undeniably a huge part in this game, but some people just like competing, I don't think you can learn that, you are either that way inclined or not, some people ( a tiny percentage of the overall field ) are there to compete, its what they / we get out of this sport IMO.
The ability & desire, the need to compete.
And I don't think you can learn it.
Some interesting debate on the mental side of things. For me it's massivly important. LS21 has it spot on, it is essential to stay positive throughout, especially when everything is screaming at you to slow down or stop.
I don't think we can compare ourselves to the elites.... they dont have to work for a living and don't have the everyday stresses that go with the job. For most people 150 miles is not a possibility, and neither is a sub 2:15 marathon!
You can totally get another gear from mental strength alone. Just think about the 'second wind' or when you see a loved one at mile 22 and a boost of speed just seems to come 'out of nowhere' or when you pass a rival late in a race. Suddnenly the fatigue is gone and you are away.
This is a great blog from an ultra runner about fatigue and how big a role the mind plays in endurance racing. It's a bit of a read, but well worth it:
http://ultrastu.blogspot.co.uk/p/article-training-for-ultras.html
TT - some of my work mates have been properly poorly with this, I was hoping to avoid it and shrug it off quicker (they are more humanoid than me after all), but its being persistant, no tarining going on still so Chichester is a defo no go and I'll be at work now anyway. I've been failing with the work/life balance a bit due to increasing emphasis on the work which has meant training early and missing lunchtime training etc the workload expectancy is increasing to include some weekend working over the next few weeks/months, so less me time and more juggling. I need to get the work/life/sports balance right even if it isnt to my usual ratios.
LS21 not really a big fan of Angela Lansbury but generally gash daytime tv so not sure what else to suggest...hope you get out!
Wardi good early door long run very smart and must be nice feeling, you can do some smug posting over the weekend whilst we all get blown away/drowned
JH good luck for Chichester and anyone else running
TT glad the legs are working again. I worked up from 35 miles/week at christmas with big jump to between 55-64 miles last 5 weeks. Never come close to this before since started running and planning to max out about 70ish. In terms of more miles making you faster I can whole heartedly agree; times I'm pulling out in training this time round are huge leap forward and seem to be pbing most weeks
CW glad to see you back at it fingers crossed for the weekend
Sorry TR that sounds really rough and feel for you. Not sure why we all have to work....sure we could claim some runners benefit...try the DWP
Glad to see I'm not the only one who wimped out yesterday and resorted to the treadmill! 14 miles = 15 chapters of audiobook.
Wardi great long run from you: love the sensible switch to get the training in.
TT hell of a good session after your sleep. I agree, weird sometimes isn't it? More below btw.
Jeepers A.W. you're another one that is burning it up. Fantastic speed.
Stacks of other great training by the looks of it. MarkyN great advice already. As has been said, yes you could do it with focused training though 50mpw would be better as it's also about endurance. Stick around. It's often said but lots do pop on here then vanish
LS21 you're like the proverbial red bus: wait for an age then you splurge a few sermons. Only teasing you fella. Great to see you back on here.
Running mostly in London we've been very lucky at my times of day to avoid the worst of this mank. 12m again today. Might have done a tempo session but holding it back into a long run Saturday again.
TT my GGAC coach on Tuesday blithely said '75' but corrected himself when he saw my face to 78'. That's still much quicker than any target I had in mind which is 79'59. My HM pb is 80'11 and I'd like to break 80' really. So target is sub-80.
I am loving loving loving the newfound tactic of hanging back early on: ties in with LS21. So on the Cooper test I not only started at the back but let everyone belt off and I was 250 metres down after 2 laps which is a heck of a lot. Then enjoyed hauling them in to finish 3rd, and effectively 2nd given my start position. If only I could be that sensible in a marathon but I'm a stupid sod and set off too fast every blimin' time … although at least in VLM11 I realised the error and braked in the nick of time.
Oh and is it menthol? Well … imho only up to a point. TT and others are right. Over 26.2m I'm afraid if the training's not in the system it doesn't matter how much you try the David Icke approach it will be to no avail. Just my view but the best mantra is to be able to remind your body that you've done the training.
No probs. Feel free to pinch some of my wisdom for your next book. I feel your sentence structure and clarity of expression could do with sharpening up a notch
In other news I ordered £120 of running gear today. Very naughty but it's my birthday next week and I haven't spent on gear for a long time. My second toe began poking through my Nike Pegasus and with 750 miles on them the end was nigh. So hopefully some socks, skins, shorts and shoes will be with me tomorrow ready for the next Atlantic savagery.
Never been a big fan of mid week long runs. It kind of feels odd. Although it is probably a smart move Wardi. I am really not looking forward to a wet an windy long run on Sunday.
Great tempo run AW. Keep it up!
HR, £120 doesnt get you much these days. Maybe a pair of socks and a couple of gels!
Double session for me today. 5xmile with 2 minutes jog in between averaging a fairly "relaxed" 5:42 (paced them all within 2 seconds of each other) in the rain and wind this morning (9 miles in total) and then an easy 5 miles this evening with some MP efforts thrown in for good measure.
I feel like flying at the moment but am trying very hard not to put too much strain on the calves after Sunday's effort.
Nice double Yasunaga you're doing some great training. If you can get to 10m in a single run mid-week that's still quite something with some speed in it: up 12m would be great?
Surprisingly with Sports Direct £117 brought me: 1 x pair new Pegasus; 1 x Skins; 1 x race shorts; 1 x short skins; 2 x prs socks; next day delivery. I reckon that's not too bad, as you say by the state of things these days.
CC2 nice treadmill session there. That takes mental attitude for sure.
Nice deal HR - I got 2 x Adidas Sonic Boost from Start Fitness £95...
TT - Positive news P.S. I did a 2:55 off 27 mpw last year.
TR - I have seen a lot of this increased workload recently. It really sucks as they think they can dump more work on you as though you weren't doing enough already.
Just did 25 "Comfy" (was meant to be steady but I forgot despite training programmes all around the house). I should be over 50 by the end of this week with a bigger one next week with 4 x doubles (an intro coach said)!
https://totriornottotri.wordpress.com
MarkyN, I've run 2:40 on a similar mileage and plan to you, although as TR would be quick to point out, I did back that up with a bit of cycling. You've really got to have a purpose for every run though, to maximise the return on your investment.
As for the mental side, there's only so much it can do. A positive approach can stop you failing when the going gets tough, but it won't make you go faster than your body is physically capable of. If you're not in shape for sub 3 you won't do it, no matter how much you think you can.
It can wreck your race too. Many capable of sub 3 start off at 6:30s, and they're convinced they can keep that up for 26.2. By the time reality sets in, no amount of positive mental attitude is going to stop the car crash happening.
Nice treadie session LS21.
Good luck at Chichester this weekend JH1 (and anyone else whose there)
Great long run and speed session Wardi.
TT - Sounds like a positive run with it feeling so easy.
Sounds like the systems clearing ready for a heavy weekends training CW.
Nice mile reps Yasunaga. With that time at Watford your looking good for sub 2.45 at Barcelona. I ran that same session last week, and although similar times I cant say they were relaxed like yours!
Always nice to have shiny new kit HR, the sort of miles your racking up I'd imagine you get through a fair few pairs of trainers every year.
Nice 25 miler Toro.
Rest on the menu for me today, then a very easy 3 or 4 with strides tomorrow and off to Wokingham Sunday.
Any of you who have run Wokingham before know how exposed the course is to elements? Its meant to be quite windy Sunday and wondered how much of a factor it could be?
HR - Don't worry you're safe when there's comments like this around :-
I did a 3.05 last year off around 33.5 miles per week average
...approximately!
Good to see LS21 has taken the pencils from up his nose and is saying more than 'Wibble' again. I might have to start super slow just so I can re-enact the pass on the Highway. Wasn't the same last year without you. Hopefully they might ask you who you're running for again at the start. For everything else there was Mastercard.
I've started doing some hill rep sessions for the first time since 2004. I didn't particularly like them before I started doing them hence the hiatus. So far I'm 3 from 4 of doing them in their entirety in the eye of a very wet storm. But TBH I've not seen any research saying you get less benefit in pants weather or you lose less when you fail to execute cos the weather's pants. Get out what you're prepared to put in.
As you were.
AW, it's pretty exposed. Find a lummox to run behind. The baggage area is going to be like a re-enactment of the Somme, without the machine guns and less barbed wire. Bring your wellies.
Thanks CD, I'm planning to come ready to run and sidestep the baggage area, heading straight to the start line.
Mmm, Wokingham 'race village' when it's been raining as much as this. Do enjoy! (Cross-country for me so giving Wokingham a miss this year).
9M for this morning. Was meant to be 12M but overslept...
Morning all. Sorry to see so many sicknotes.
Ridiculously fast mile reps from bufo. In terms of Reading Half, I would get there a little early. 45 minutes isn’t necessary, but I’ve left it too tight on a couple of occasions, and barging through the crowds 10 minutes before is stress you don’t need. A lot of the people wandering down to the start realise that they’re going to take 10-15 minutes to cross the line anyway, so are in no hurry. Aim to be there 15 minutes before at latest. By the way, you should’ve got an elite number if you’re looking to go under 1:10, it makes it easier to get to the start.
Excellent to see LS21 back at it.
Good to see JH1 continuing onwards, despite fate clearly wishing him dead.
Also nice to see TT hopefully coming out of it and looking forward to seeing the Edinburgh campaign come together.
Good midweek medium longs from all, and a proper long one from Wardi & TT. Shame to see people pussying out on the treadmills though. I haven’t let myself down by doing likewise yet, although this may have something to do with not having access to one.
With reference to the debate about mental strength, no doubt it’s a big factor in marathon running, and some are simply tougher than others. But all it can ever do is address the degree to which your actual performance is a reduction from what you are physically capable of. I have to say that I do cringe a little when I hear people declaring that their mental fortitude is going to be a substitute for doing more training, as it just doesn’t work that way. So, for MarkyN, if you can’t fit the miles in due to other commitments, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with just doing whatever you can. I doubt any of us are training optimally. Not knowing much about your background and what mileage you’ve already done to get to your current PBs, the training you propose could well be enough to get you sub-3. There are a fair few on here who could comfortably go sub-3 on 30-40 mpw, and really that’s just a question of talent and the quality of the aerobic engine to begin with. But you need to go into marathons with a realistic basis for your target pace, rather than a reliance on belief seeing you through, otherwise it’s going to be a mess.
In terms of advice, you are talking about doing 5-mile speed sessions at lunchtimes. Is there any option for doing one 10-11 miler with speedwork or marathon pace, and then not having a lunchtime session another next day? A 5-mile run isn’t really enough volume to do anything other than a recovery run, so one ten miler is better than two fives.
Bit mixed for me this week. On the one hand, I think I’m in the absolute form of my life judging by tempos and reps in the last couple of weeks. On the other hand, I’ve been struggling with a sore thigh at the beginning of the week, which made Sunday’s 23 a struggle, and which meant a couple of rest days Monday and Tuesday. However, I seem to have shaken it off, so in terms of fitness at least I’m confident of a PB at Wokingham. However, the wind looks like it’ll be a big factor, so I may not manage to get the time I’ve got in mind. Fortunately, the only person I told that time to is TT when I ran into him in a soft play centre, so no-one will be any the wiser.
CRAB - 5 x 400m hill reps with 10 years recovery between each rep. That sounds like a session. With a bit of mental training, perhaps you could extend the recovery to 20 years and get the same benefit.
AW - last year at Wokey, the conditions were horrid. And by the looks of it, much the same is due this weekend. The wind tends to be behind for the first 4 miles, and the last 3 (same bit in reverse) tend to be into a headwind. Last year I ran that bit solo and it was pretty brutal and cost a bit of time.
LS21 - good to see you're still around
You mean it isn't the 1:13 you put down when you entered, Dachs?
At least if you & TT ran into each other in a soft play centre there was little chance of anyone getting hurt.
CD - no comment on the time...
TT and I are stick-thin distance runners, we could injure ourselves in any conceivable scenario.
Nice to see CRAB again. Yes, you witnessed first-hand my 'mental strength' in 2012 when I just stopped for a bit cos I couldn't be arsed. I could have done with a couple of pencils that day too. Nice reps by the way. That hill work should serve you well on a flat course like London.
Sorry to hear TR is struggling a bit. Just a matter of doing what you can I guess.
Cracking long runs from wardi and TT, and a top treddie sesh from CC2. Nice stuff from Yasunaga and Toro too
Shocking stuff from joolska though by sleeping in. Disgraceful that.
Good luck to the racers this weekend, whether it be Workingham or Chichester. Hope Dachs' thigh is ok!
8 miles for me last night in the pouring rain. Fortunately I have waterproof skin though, so I was ok.
Oh and hello to Dan and CD too
Dachs - I agree that mental training cannot be a substitute for physical training and both should be done together, I just think that the mental side of things is often overlooked and personally believe that it's at least as important as physical training, especially over longer distances.
You say "all it can ever do is address the degree to which your actual performance is a reduction from what you are physically capable of". The problem is, there is no way of knowing what you are physically capable of until you have actually done it. This is where the mental part comes in.
When it comes to physical training, every runner is different. If you need to do 70 miles a week to make you believe that you can achieve your goals, than that is what you need to do. If you know you can do it on a lower mileage, then great... it will be different for everyone.
In terms of my training.... I did around 1400 miles last year and ran 2 marathons (1 spring road marathon and 1 autumn trail marathon).
The 5 mile lunchtime runs are all that I'm willing to fit in around family life, I always do speedwork (usually without a warmup or cooldown!). Today will be a tempo run just under 5 miles at around 6:15 pace. I normally try to do the middle part of my long run at M.P. or faster.
Very civilised CC2. Yasunaga -- good session.
Dachs -- good luck at Wokingham, glad to hear you're in good form.
My legs were most reluctant this morning after that modest bit of speed yesterday, and I averaged a shocking 8:45/M for my 6M plod to work. OCD-wise though, if I do 6.6M on the way home, I'll have reached 80 for the week. I'm over my cold bar a vestige of coughing, but seem to have a nuance of a niggle on my outer left shin; day off tomorrow I think, after an 8-day streak and 5 days of doubles, and then back to it with a decent long run on Sunday.
Actually I do play the mental card too, of course -- I really try to focus, to develop a sense of 'flow', to concentrate on keeping smooth and efficient, and to kill any internal negative talk too. To the extent that friendly crowds can be a distracting mixed blessing! (I concur that seeing loved ones can be a boost though.) But that is about reaching my full physical potential by not copping out or getting sloppy, rather than doing something superhuman through mental strength alone.