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The Middle Ground
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No time to comment on everything just now, although WJH's 22 is noteworthy: I have always struggled for a day or two after a hard race. Perhaps your 10k wasn't hard enough: I wouldn't be able to walk, never mind doing 22! Its probably my biomechancs though!
BBB: in the mid 70s I was involved in some research into the "best" sessions for 3 to 6 miles (joint project between exercise physiologists at Exeter and Leeds Carnegie). Apart from the long run (can't remember their exact advice on this) the key sessions were:
1. 3-4 mins at what feels like 90-95% effort (remember there were no HRMs etc in those days. Even stopwatches were quite rare!!). Half the length of time for recovery. Build up to 4-6 depending on whether aiming for 5k or 10k.
2. 10-12 x 30-40 seconds, preferablyon a slight incline, with double the recovery. Aim is to just finish the session.
So...
1. Equates to km reps, approx. We worked on 3 mins, but that was in the days what I could run over a k in that time: some girls that I have coached in the last couple of years were aiming to break 20 mins for 5k, so their session built to 4 x 4 mins with 2 mins recovery, and they would run just over a k in that time.
2. The shorter sessions you would cover 200 metres or more, with a slow walk/jog back to recover. So basically that is 40 seconds with 1 minute 20 recovery.
On other matters, just back from the consultant re the prostate cancer treatment: from viewing a scan he is pleased so far, subject to the rsults of a PSA blood test. I mustn't get too carried away, though: this is a long term project! It will be 4 or 5 years, or more before we can say "all clear". "Cautiously optimisitc" is the phrase, I think.
YD, hard times for the gym, hopefully if you manage to get some good sessions in you can get a good level of all-round conditioning (circuits if possible?).
Phil, I think threshold at this point in time is a good idea, if you use it in conjunction with pMP/MP stuff.
Tom, how old are you? You kind of remind me of a few years ago, time-wise (18/19). Might be worth trying out a variety of distances to see which suits you (I jumped into a 400 and 58.5 off of no speed training whatsoever, and pretty much straight away switched to running 800s).
prf, sub-2'04 is the aim for this summer and despite Sunday showing there is a ton of work still to do, I think it's attainable.
Nice grafting at the weekend. Where do you put yourself right now in terms of preparation?
Mr V, sensible decision if you really didn't want to head out! At the end of the day one day doesn't make a difference, if you did that most days though....
BBB - is it suggesting all those workouts in one week!?
Today marked the start of pre-comp MK.II (after the first abandoned attempt a few weeks ago). And a big sign of how the weather can affect times. Today was a light breeze, cool but not cold - like summer compared to Sunday.
8*200 off 60s static rec. 30.7, 30.1, 30.1, 29.5, 30.1, 29.7, 30.2, 29.6 for 30.0 avg. Very early days yet of course but it's an excellent starting point and points to good things when I'm fit.
Thanks TOM, Bob, I'll give it a good shot. Just hope the weather improves slightly from now until the weekend. I'll check ut the advice, thanks Curley
Just the easy 3.5m for me today. Didn't really get into the swing of it, and the niggles were back. Seems like at the minute, if I do alternate days, I'm fine. Two days in a row and it starts to hurt a bit more. Probably should go to a physio, but I'm guessing they will probably just tell me to "rest for a week" rather than suggest anything insightful. It's the only thing stopping me from racking up 16-20miles a week; although my muscles always feel fine, my ankle and hip can't stand up to the workload
Certainly see your point there Alehouse. I do ache or more to the point feel the muscles aching but it’s normally briefly say if I have been sitting down for a long period and get up and start walking – the best description I guess is to say the legs don’t feel fresh rather than ache most of the time! I am pretty sure that what you are NOT saying is that it was a case of not putting in enough effort on Sunday! I just put all this down to the fact I have built up some fairly consistent mileage particularly since January so the legs are responding fairly well perhaps? It’s an interesting viewpoint there and certainly one which I am taking in a positive sense!
Phil – definitely taking it easy tonight. I am doing 5 easy miles at my club and not running tomorrow – ideally I’d have liked it the other way round but have other plans tomorrow night. It would also have been more ideal to have done the 22 miler before Eastleigh but wanted to get it done on fresher legs…so glad it’s out the way!
The curry was great cheers TOM!
Just a shame I can’t have them more often!
Duck – forgot to mention your racing! Sounds like it’s all going nicely despite the conditions too but not surprised you were spent in the 60 metres after 800 on the weekend! Some very good 200m reps today too!
Some good plans there Mr V! Hope that things progress nicely there! And talking 1 mile races…there is one in Gosport down my way at the beginning of June – I think I mentioned it to Stevie before! I think it is likely to have some very fast runners entering too which is interesting!
Not sure if it’s too far for you to go for a 1 mile race though…
Yes, WRH, I think it is me rather than you that had the issue! In all probability I didn't back up some good speed work with sufficient injury proofing and consistent mileage to support this. One day I will learn!
As the quote facility isn't that great still, i'll forget trying to reference to the original posters comment, and instead answer below!
Mr V, I wish you the run of pbs you deserve. I remember getting a few critical comments on my thread from a few who'd not seen a pb from me for a fair while, and the comments ranged from all "Not being well", to the bizarre view that I was an "insult to Moraghan's training!
Tom, hope you beat the guy who wasn't a nice chap. However, people do change though. I remember hating loads at school, and then you meet them at 21 or so and they're suddenly easy to get on with!
However...it doesn't hurt your race aspirations to hold a little target like that. I'd always wanted to beat this local level top runner who bizarrely slated me for ages on twitter (!) for winning a low key 5k once! Saw him at Eastleigh, passed him, and guess what....he dropped out rather than lose to me
Prf... i try and play down expectations... I'm sure we can all name at least one runner who has burst onto the scene, given it loads and disappeared...I remember when we met, you asked me a "career" target, and I gave a 1:15:xx half time. I didn't know I'd be hitting that next time out! However, I like to chisel the time, and look for shorter term targets generally. Still a big 59secs off you and BR's epic 33.31 10ks
WFH, I remember Squall well. It would have been good to meet the man behind the self proclaimed "epic" threads
. Shame he's moved more away from the running side of things...which ironically has brought him his best time!!
Eastleigh is a great course. Take the windy bits out and probably one of the best courses in the country! I can see what people say about the "incline" coming at the right time now.
The splits were all over the place marker wise, which was a bit disorientating, but I'll definitely aim to get there again.
Leeds Abbey Dash might be interesting for November. I guess weather and clashing with Gosport half might be "against" features though.
ps wow, I'm imagining Ducky making the trip from Scotland to Eastleigh for a 1mile race!!
Having said that I've been fancying this race called the Mynyddislwyn Mile in Newport Wales for years.
http://www.islwynrunningclub.org.uk/Murder-Mile.php
Basically a 1mile monster steep hill!
Some Welsh International junior has the record, 7.50!
Until now it's seemed ridiculous, a 400mile round trip for a 1mile race. However, a pal is moving to Bristol, so that might make it a leetle less silly
Don't tempt me Stevie
Duck, Stevie: forget the uphill mile, go for the downhill! One of the lads from nearby may still hold the mile record with 3:24 something...
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/maniacs-stand-out-a-mile-1251620.html
It may have been broken by now, but I'm sure you get the idea!
alehouse - Oof! My knees (and hips), just thinking about it!
Duck - Tasty splits, nice consistency.
A cut-down threshold miles session (5 x 1600, 30s recovery) this evening in prep for Maidenhead 10 on Friday. Would be nice to think it was genuine threshold cos we was running like metronomes! 5:20, 5:21, 5:21, 5:21, 5:21. 'av it!
Evening! Just back from club and ooof that was tough 4 mile warm up, strides, then 6 x 5 mins @ 10k effort off 60 second recovery, paces came out at:
6:56, 6:36, 6:50, 6:38, 6:45, 6:42
Which isnt bad for running in the dark in Richmond park dodging the deer in freezing cold temps and wind. Rest day tomorrow which I will be thankful for I think
Alehouse cautiously optimistic sounds about the best you could hope for this stage I suspect.
T.O.M glad some things are making your sacrifice a little cause it sounds amazing and I am so jealous!! Good running too and you are going to fly like the wind when you get back to sea level.
BBB I think that sounds like too many sessions to me - progress them dont run them every week (making recoveries shorter is the easiest way), but I dont think your goal is unreasonable at all.
TOM K I wonder if you are running too hard and thus getting niggles - nice easy paces except in sessions will see you right.
WJH you nutcase! You can pace me round Brighton I think
Mr V good luck in your race and I hope it gives you some confidence for the one coming up the week after. Stevie is right you are due a good run of form.
Phil hope the threshold miles went well. Ah okay fair enough - hang around if you have time for a beer afterwards, but can safely give you cheese without risk of polutting a train carriage
Duck nice session - you finished strongly. I wonder if you are going to get a warm race soon!
A quick glance back to note that Duck is doing his speedy stuff with Phil and Curly putting in nice longer reps.
Did similar at track on Monday. 5 x 1600 off 90 secs, hard work and did them with a couple of fitter types, managing to keep up until the last rep. Not sure of times but just over 6 mins it seems ( I timed the rests and impersonated Darth Vader).
Having my own Ethiopan mini-training week but without the weather and with the meat! No work so some cross-training doubles as an experiment...oh, and a shoe-horned 10k on Friday * How exciting!
* No, it's not a bloody A race!!!!!!
WJH – Thanks for the heads up on race. Think I draw the line at a 700 mile round trip for a 1 mile race though
Duck – Promising session there. Perhaps we will clash in a MD race this year!
Phil – Poor pacing effort there. You really overcooked that first rep
Curly – Some pretty brisk paces there, good work.
I think I must be coming down with something. Really struggled on last night’s run – cut it short and was very pleased to get home. Feeling a bit grotty this morning as well.
Alehouse - Many thanks. That's helpful. Have copied it into a document (alongside the original blog details) for reference and further thought when I'm nearing the point of the change of emphasis in my training. Looks like the two are not a million miles apart. Positive news on the scan, fingers crossed for the blood test.
Duck / Curly - Yep - all in one week it seems! Though only 3 or 4 weeks at a time before a cutback, and no more than 8 in total he suggests. The thinking would appear to be that you always have a rest day after the hard sessions, and your overall volume is down on the base already set. 3 hard sessions/week and a longer run that is faster than easy pace does look excessive though! I was thinking that I'd still keep the long run at easy pace, and for the harder stuff perhaps start with 2 of them in the first week, and then alternate between 3 and 2 for the remainder if the legs stood up to that ok.
Some tip-top efforts again from Duck, Phil, Curly, and Dash - how am I supposed to make any inroads at all into trying to catch you lot up when you're all racking up sessions like that?!
Good work - and good luck with the B (C?) race on Friday, Dash. May the seemingly inevitable and perpetual frost only be nipping at your extremities rather than biting to your core! Hope the bug amounts to nowt, Mr V - plenty of it floating about in our house too, though (touches wood) I'm avoiding it so far.
Phil - You were right about last night's splits, though I didn't do too badly! Really only cocked up the middle km when I hit the meat of a steady incline in the final couple of hundred metres. Was looking for equivalent mile paces of 7:21, 7:13 and 7:08. Actually came out at 7:21, 7:16 and 7:07. This compares with a mile and a half on a similar run* at an average of 7:27 pace that as I recall felt at a similar level of effort at the same stage of my preparation for my first 10k race, so that hopefully shows progress. Final pre-race quicker session will also replicate what I did that week with 2 x 1k reps off a minutes rest at a comfortably hard pace. Looking back they came out at 7:20 and 7:18, and proved to be a pretty accurate predictor of my race pace for the weekend, so will look at the results of those with particular interest on Thursday evening.
* - Though that run did feel particularly tough just 48 hours after a major p*ss-up!
BBB: I always used to say KISS to my athletes when I was coaching on a more regular basis...Keep It Simple Stupid. Try not to over-complicate things...lots of running, most of it slow, some of it fast, plus general stretching and strengthening. I think too many people over-complicate things too soon!
A typical week for a 5-10k runner who has a reasonable base on which to build would look something like
-LSR
-One, and when ready, the second of the sessions I mentioned yesterday (or in the preliminary stages of speed work I would suggest fartlek as an introduction)
-Lots of 20 to 40 minutes steady running, building to make one of these a mediumlong run of 60 to 70 minutes
The key things are consistent consistency and progression over time. Rome wasn't built in a day etc etc!
Brilliant advice Alehouse - I always think of it in terms of: bake your cake (the boring sponge bit) then ice it (the pretty exciting bit)
Yes, Curly, too many people ice their cakes before they have come out of the oven...me included! Which is why I am being ultra-cautious in the present come-back! Some sun on my back would help: more white stuff coming horizontally from the very grey sky as I type.
Alehouse - There are obvious reasons for caution being employed with the diagnosis but it sounds promising that you're going to end up being in the 'caught it early enough' camp. Progressing well.....
Phil - Nice repping but agonisingly close to the perfect set. Lack of consistency if you ask me
And that is certainly some team you have for VLM.
Curly - Yes, the Thirsk 10 course was the same one that you ran.
And I wouldnt worry too much about speed, it is your strength from all the long runs that is going to set you up well for VLM. But looking at last night's reps, there aint a lot wrong with the speed anyway.
HHH - Thanks for solving the mystery...and the comments.
Mr V - Couldnt agree more, if your body really doesnt want to run, why fight it?
Duck - 2:04 sounds incredibly fast based on our experiences last year. But why not?
Stevie - That would be BR's 33:31! My PB is in a different league...... 33:30
With 25 days to go to VLM it was good to get a 26 miler done last night despite the fact that every other runner seemed to have decided that conditions were too bad to venture out, not one runner seen for the whole run except my running partner. It seemed a little weird!
Good advice there Alehouse but equally BBB the enthusiasm is great to see and surely over the months your times will naturally start to fall down, hopefully starting Easter Monday! As another indication of whether I hit my potential on current form on Sunday, I did a 4x1 mile rep session last Wednesday in 6:09, 6:06, 6:06 and 6:14. Conditions were pretty good on doing this! The race averaged out at 6:16 per mile...so maybe there was some scope? Either way I am looking forward to another 10k possibly over the summer (Lordshill in Southampton or Poole which are both pretty fast courses) interspersed with some 5ks, a mile race (Gosport Golden Mile) and possibly the South Downs Relay if we are entering any team(s)!
I am also guilty of not doing enough slower mileage despite improvements on my times recently. I am sure it's been asked lots of times before, but in terms of 10% of running being quality miles, I was just wondering what actually constitutes quality miles? For example, obviously the specific speed work, tempo sessions count. But what about threshold, HMP, MP efforts? Does this also count as quality? I am assuming that does as well. Possibly a silly question but do races count as 'quality' too? Even if they are Parkruns and ran at HMP/MP for example? Because if they do, then I am also running far too high a proportion of mileage as quality.
Stevie - indeed, that's how I met Squall in the first place - at one of the local 5k's down my way in Portsmouth! I think he is also doing triathlons as well so he's still active just not so much with the running, but was good to see him and on form as well!
You could always combine such a 1 miler with a tour of the south coast Mr V!
Seems to be a fair few people going down with colds and things again recently but it's hardly surprising! 
Curly - that is something which I would actually give serious consideration to you know but equally I know you will have your 'own' race going on there! I am in the blue pen for this though...I am guessing you'd be in the one further up? Either way it sounds like you have a great base of training behind you which will put you in a great position (I am wondering whether I will have the stamina required over the last 6 personally plus that will be the time when I will worry about the knees again)! Will be very interesting to hear what you are intending your target time to be once decided!
Just noticed PRF - 26 miles in prepatation for VLM in those conditions too. Great preparation there! Oh, and going by the picture you have put up in your previous post, it was definitely you that passed me by at the Netley Abbey Parkrun back on NYD!
WJH blue?!? Oh you poor bugger thats the 4-4:30 pen - you'll just have to be patient for the first few miles then
OH says last year it wasnt strictly enforced re: pens so you can probably skip up to Red on the day if you want 
Yes races definitely count as quality sessions! I even count steady pace as quality but then I am building mileage so have to be quite careful.
PRF think the 26 miles has addled your brain- your doing VLM, I'm doing Brighton
What sort of conditions did you have then?
I was wondering about the course because the up and back section would have given you a respite from the wind in usual cases but the direction is kind of unusual at the moment so I guess it didnt help much?
Rest day for me today. I want to run. God I hate tapering!
Thanks, Alehouse. A typical week for me is currently fairly straighforward: -
Around 25 miles, made up of 1 x LSR, 2 or 3 x Easy/Steady Runs, 1 x Quality Session (tempo, progression or simple intervals) plus the odd parkrun - or race.
That won't change for at least 4-6 weeks, other than trying to get a longer, easy paced midweek run (probably early morning once the weather warms up) of around 7 miles with the aim of taking total mileage to 30/week.
Outside of the cricket season, I'd still see that as the basis of my running for at least another 12 months, but trying to get nearer to 40 miles than 30.
The reason for looking ahead is really in case cricket commitments do limit my mileage for a few weeks/months, and having a plan in mind for how I can best make use of the time I will have available. Targeting the shortest commonly raced distance and getting some speed into my legs at the same time therefore makes sense to me. The simpler the better whilst still making it effective though!
WJH - That NYD encounter seems a while ago now. In fact it was more like Summer back then compared to what we have now.
Curly - VLM/Brighton, they're all the same length
Last night conditions were fine for running but the main issue is that there are snow drifts 6ft+ high in places so a good proportion of pavements are out of bounds. Hardly matters though when there were virtually no cars about.
The up and back section at Thirsk might look like it gave a bit of respite from looking at the splits - but it certainly didnt feel like it at the time!
PRF - I noticed that too in the splits. The two slightly faster miles were more cross wind, though as you said after the race, it felt ok on the very slight rise to the cone so expected to fly back on the therefore slight down, but got stuck with more wind.
So, I don't have exercise induced asthma. Although I accepted it from the GP, I never really thought it was that and wasn't happy to base it on just blowing into a peak flow monitor, especially as none of the inhalers appeared to work at all. From the science bit of the lung function tests at the University and analysis of my perceptions and descriptions, the PhD fella thinks it might be vocal cord dysfunction, which is very often misdiagnosed as asthma in "athletes" (I'm classing myself loosely there
Having googled VCD in athletes and looked at a comparison chart in the symptoms between that and asthma, it fits very much closer to the former. The bad news is I'm stuck with "whatever" for now - no wonder it has felt so consistently bad for so long - but the good news is he has another study soon with an actual medical consultant and specialist leading it and I can have some further testing, including camera into the throat, lungs, etc in due course. Might be a few months for that though.
If it is VCD, the treatment is breathing exercises, much like in speech therapy, to get the vocal cords to open instead of close! Might be helpful to actually be able to breathe while running!!! You know with some injuries where the location of pain isn't the source? What I have thought was my lungs (and is still in a way) is really in the throat and just having a knock on effect by restricting the windpipe.
However, if it isn't that either, then I'll just have to face that I'm officially rubbish
Kelly that is interesting, good about the asthama - can you come off the inhaler then? Come to think of it I do wonder if some time at a choir might help? Singing is also very good for breathing patterns
I can tell when my vocal cords are inflamed from singing too much too high into my range when I run...which obviously you wouldnt need to do (I do it because I am trying to retain my top C as I age and my voice drops!).
Oh and as well as rest days I also hate my scales now, moved them out of interest today as first reading seemed high a 133 and the second was 122. Pfffft. No idea wtf my weight is doing, but need it to budge before race day!
hehe, still amazing you both have it within 1 second of each other. Most odd.
Doh, so a full 60sec behind then...I wonder if matching that will be poss in time to come..we'll find out!
Taper starting to kick in now... 7 miles @ 8:22 this morning. Bouncy. And there were lambs
Hahaha brilliant! Mostly they were lying down lazily though
Nice. Any lambs unfortunate enough to have been born into the frozen wastes near work would probably be doing the above not so much out of youthful exuberance, but to keep their feet and arse out of the freezing snow! In fact, one of my colleagues keeps sheep and is actually off work lambing this week and next - I envy her not.
Have had to abandon the plans for some brief, lunchtime intervals myself due to the couple of inches of compacted snow and ice on many of the pavements and will instead do them at home this evening where it's now pretty much gone thank goodness. Still brass monkeys though.