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The Middle Ground
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DT - doesn't it (as with most running injuries it seems) stem from weak hips? Sounds like you are managing ok on it though if you can be doing 6 milers pain free. Perhaps a base training period on a diet of easy miles might help you through the injury, whilst also building a useful base for next year?
Cross training tonight on the bike. once I'm warmed up I might try a few of the yoga stretches I learned on Monday too - might garner some strange looks in the gym though .....
Evening!
Thirskrunner has been posting on the sub3 thread fairly often, and race cross country 10 days ago, I noticed!
Yes, rather quiet on here of late. I have had little to contribute except to say that for the last week or so of October I was rather under the weather: whilst I managed a run of some sort each day it was going through the motions rather than training and the race I had lined up last Friday had to be shelved. Must book in another some time!
hello. I'm still around but nothing much to report apart from the fact that I've run 3 days on the trot! Will post more if things get more interesting!
Hi Charlie, I still sort out my own schedule, with help from the thread. Ironically Curly started the thread then went and got a coach!
Afternoon all - have disappeared recently as Amsterdam really went south & decided I needed a break for a while.
Something was clearly not right on the day as my usual HM heart rate is 170bpm, yet after a few K I was struggling to get below 180bpm and hit 187bpm after 10k. Following on from that I felt dreadful & ran the last few miles almost a minute per mile slower than the first few.
FWIW I ran 1:23:06 - which is hardly a time to be sniffed at, but was more than 6 minutes off what I was hoping. The full sob story is on Garmin Connect.
Since then I've really taken it easy & tried to get some motivation back - didn't run for 4 days & ran twice in about a week and a half. On holiday in France right now and am starting to get some consistency back, but have left the Garmin at home since Amsterdam which is just allowing me to run without any constraints.
Doing Abbey Dash next weekend but I suspect it will not be anything spectacular. Honestly I am looking forward to enjoying it without any pressure & seeing a few of the thread members (TR & Mr V are doing it I believe?). Once that's done I'm going to have a bit of time focusing on building to a handful of indoor races (despite Amsterdam not going well the mileage will not have hurt me at all) then going towards summer 2015 & seeing if I can crack a good 1500/3000.
I am noticing from read backs we are getting into that stage of the year now where everyone hunkers down to put the miles in over the winter period. Given I am now starting to look towards longer distances to compete at (relatively, as I am a bit tired of the 800m now) stamina-building and strength are key components of this period.
The thread has had lengthy discussions in the past about easy run pace, and long runs and now pace fits into these. A number of the thread have subscribed to the "MP + 25%" philosophy of easy run pace (myself included) to promote endurance benefits and also ensure as much mileage as possible can be done without burning out.
As I get more and more interested in the Canova philosophy of doing faster-paced mileage at certain periods, my question is if anyone has experimented with faster easy runs (be that all or some of them) and if they have have any comments on it at all. My feeling is that - if done correctly - it can produce excellent stamina-based benefits for all distances.
Duck – Good to see you back. I’m sure with all the training you’ve put in Amsterdam will just be a minor blip. Sounds a sensible plan to back off a bit and get your mojo back. I’m not doing Abbey Dash now I think. I will likely be doing Brampton to Carlisle 10 miler instead.
I’ve done the majority of my easy mileage faster this year. Most of it has been in the 7:30-40 bracket which is about 30 secs a mile faster than I used to run it. This hasn’t been a conscious decision but just because I’ve been doing less mileage generally so I’ve been able to do it faster without compromising my quality sessions. Not sure if I would be able to maintain this with a higher volume, plus the quality I am doing at the minute. But if I was doing base stuff then I’d probably keep the easy pace up. What exactly is your plan? How fast would you do your easy stuff and would this be coupled with high volume?
Mr V - I may see you at Brampton-to-Carlisle then
. It's the 30th anniversary of me being beaten by a legend of running ... parkrunfan ...oh, and a chap called Steve Cram. Sounds like you're in good shape ... any targets for B2C?
DT - if it was me and it and been going on for this long, I'd rest until it was completely fixed ... and then start again.
Charlie - welcome.
Chubby - good to hear you're running even if you don't think it's interesting. Likewise Alehouse.
Andrew - sounds like you just need a good dose on consistent consistency.
Duck - the only faster "easy runs" I do are MP sections in my long runs as I get near marathon time. I like them as 2:30-3 hour long slow runs can be dull. Shame I'll miss you at Abbey Dash ... usually do it but decided in B2C this year. It will be a main target race next year though.
I'm in recovery mode at the moment after running 3:39 at Dublin 11 days ago. Tough conditions and a lumpier than expected course, coupled with a scratch throat in the build up and dodgy legs on the day, meant that I threw out my target time by 3 miles and went for a conservative pace in the hope that, for once, I'd finish strongly. It worked and, although still tough, I managed to gain 1185 places in the 2nd half and even finished with a really strong final 800m. Unheard of in the previous 5 marathons!
So that was 4 marathons in 53 weeks ... 3:38:15 at Abingdon Oct 2013; 3:37:35 at London April 2014; 3:35:10 at Nottingham Sep 2014; and 3:39:10 at Dublin Oct 2014. I'm not planning any more until at least 2016 ... I want to see if I can regain some speed at shorter distances during 2015 as I'm clearly not built for marathons.
Dan - Great, I'll see you there! Yeah the goal is sub 60. There are 2 or 3 of us
from the club going for that time so I should hopefully have some company for
pacing purposes. I'm just hoping we get a tail wind and not a head wind! Any
targets for you? Sounds like you had a well executed marathon in Dublin, though
I can understand you wanting to take a break!
Sounds good - sub60 would be very nice
. However, there was definitely a headwind when I did it 30 years ago ... still remember that wind today
!
No Targets for me ... struggling to run 5 miles at the moment but hopefully will recover more over the next week.
Mr V, no real plan yet, just something I am pondering. Something like starting off base with 13M in 1:45 or similar easy pace, then over training periods increasing the pace until it's done in 1:35 or slightly quicker. For easy runs it would be more a case of picking it up in the last few miles, as long as it did not compromise other sessions.
It's something a few coaches subscribe to, in order to help stamina from races as short at 1500m - Joe Rubio & Reneto Canova both use it (Canova more for marathoners but I think the principles can still be pertinent for shorter distances).
Dan, was it my imagination or did you say after London no more marathons
I am down in Nice right now, CS is running Nice-Cannes marathon on Sunday so have been running up and down the Riveria. All very nice and at 20 degrees very welcome in November!
Speaking of CS, a few of you have seen but for those I am not FB friends with, or are not on Fetch, we got engaged on Monday
Duck – Had seen that on FB. Great stuff, congratulations!! How did CS get on in the mara?
Dan – Good to see the recovery coming along, you’ll be flying by Sunday.
I ran a tune up 10k race on Sunday in prep for Brampton next weekend. Felt really out of sorts and a struggle right from the off. Complete contrast from the 5k I did earlier in the week. Think lack of sleep the night before might have been the cause as I felt really tired. Still it served its purpose and it’s nice to think I’m fit enough that a 37.03 now represents a total off day. Got to maintain the same pace next weekend for the full 10 to get that sub 60. But I think I should be fine if I’m well rested and have a going day.
London wasn't a good lace to leave things ... needed to run at least one marathon where I didn't screw things up! I still need to run a good 26.2 race when I'm fit and light enough to do myself some justice ... but it'll have to wait a while.
You can't win them all MrV ... running 10K at 10MP may actually be a good thing though. I'm not planning any "flying" on Sunday ... more of a social weekend for me with the family with a race thrown in on the last day.
Dan - you are absolutely right. I want a solid block of training before I even really think too closely about training for a specific event.
Completed 19k this week, including 7k long run yesterday. This is (embarrassingly) a record high training week for 2014! Shows you how bad things have been! 21k planned this week, and also yoga again tonight.
Duck - congrats!
Mr V - sounds like a decent indication of fitness as you say. Good luck at Brampton.
Duck, saw your news on FB, congrats. You've been busy of late with those trips away.
Re your question, I know a lot of people that seem to get decent results from 4-6 mile sessions at notional MP. As Mr V says, if your mileage and intensity of the hard sessions is less than normal then I think you canm afford to run some easy stuff at high end aerobic. I recall Simon delved into that quite a bit last year.
Mr v- Things cant be to bad when you post a time like that on an off day. Good luck sunday.
Dan- glad you had a reasonable day in Dublin. whens the next one?!!
Andrew- sounds like sensible steady progress. You must be a man blessed with patience.
I ve laid off the running again for last week or so as I had my specialist Referral today. Firrst thing he did was send me to x ray of hip area. The results show something in there which he believes to be some detached bone that has then embedded intoa tendon. It may or may not be the cause of my issues...however he has now referred me for mri of hip and whole upper leg, which is kind of the money shot really. That ought to take 3 weeks.
He was quite relaxed about what i do in the interim as im unlikely to cause additional damage. He just said to not do anything crazy and push through any pain.
Congratulations Duck
Nothing exciting from me.
But here is Little Miss CB finishing her first junior parkrun!
Andrew – Good that you are now starting to put some consistent training together. Long may it continue!
Chubby – Very cute
DT- Sounds nasty but at least its progress in a diagnosis. Hopefully it will be good news from the mri.
Session of 6x1K with the club last night at 5K pace. Reps averaged just under 5.30 pace despite a strong headwind for the second half. Went with our fastest group so had to work hard to avoid dropping off the back! Definitely think training with the faster guys is going to help me improve.
Just read back a bit!
Dr Dan well done on the strong finish, even if you did have to revise your target.
DT sounds painful. Hopefully the MRI will reveal the full extent and they can sort it.
Still struggling for any pace (or motivation) Trying to sort out my diet at the moment in the hope that by not eating rubbish my body will respond in a positive way. Going well so far - eschewed cookies at break in favour of carrots. Just need to keep it up forever now!
Ironically the hip is feeling pain free now. Its the rest of the upper leg, which is maybe caused by having some bone in then tendon?
Also back to looking at footwear. I've decided the brooks glycerin are not for me so will sell them as barely used.
Need to find another pair of support shoe that's equivalent to gt2000 as don't feel I got on with v2. May look at saucony.
Mr v- is it abbey dash this weekend?
DT - Makes me squirm reading that! I would imagine you are compensating which is causing the niggles in other areas. Its Brampton to Carlisle 10 mile I'm doing. Annoyingly its always the same weekend as Abbey Dash as I usually want to do them both. But thought I would go for a change this year especially as sub 60 is such a tempting target!
DT, the Saucony Omni works very similarly to the 2000 from experience. If you fancy a lighter shoe, the Asics Super-J 33 is surprisingly supportive although it does not look like it. Works with the sub-talor joint so does not look anything like a traditional stability shoe. Could maybe look at the Boost Sequence 7 too.
So, quick bit of advice. Just did a 2k time trial (2k warm up, strides, 2k time trial then 1k warm down jog) and the time trial element came in at 9min23 (even did a negative split too). I was hoping for sub 10 based off my training paces so am pleased with that, even though it is much slower than my times from last year and must seem incredibly plodding to the rest of you!
Anyway, here is the advice part ...... plugging that time into the training paces calculator gives me predicted training paces about 30-40 seconds per km faster than I am currently running. Given my concerns about injury, should I stick as I am, change to the new predicted paces or go for something in the middle? Don't want to hold mself back unnecessarily but also don't want injury again!
Any thoughts? What would you guys do?
AD: I would stick to your current training paces as they seem to be working! Why change something when it isn't broken! If you are to change anything at present I would gradually increase the distances run, particularly your longest two runs, with a slight cut back week once a month. Build strength first: the speed will naturally come back later. I also don't think it is the time of year for doing too much too quickly. Well see what others think! Consistent consistency/slowly does it etc
Good luck, Mr v.
I also squirm when I consider the specifics of the problem.
It seems to affect me more at night than in activity. Last night I slept quite heavily for a few hours on that side and the whole area was sore when I woke at 4am.
Did a six miler last night and no issue from it.
Duck thanks for the suggestions. I'll have to add them to my research list.
Andrew, what alehouse says, plus my thought would be how accurate various other paces would be from a solo 2k time trial. Maybe just go by feel until your ready for perhaps a parkrun and in turn to add something a bit quicker in each week.
I'm quite enjoying some relatively shorter slower runs. My six miler last night started with a 8.55 mile and gradually progressed by about 15 secs per mile, not through any plan just because it happened as I loosened off.
I'm going to keep it that way until I get my MRI, though I do keep battleing temptation to do something nastier!
Duck, if you check back anytime soon.....the j33 looks a bit racey for me. I'm attracted by the omni but it says they are for mid to high pronators. I am very mild, having had my feet and knees assessed by a sports injury bloke. However thebvtwice I have dipped into neutral its not worked. Would have too much support be equally problematic?
I'm drawn to brooks adrenaline. Any expert view on those?
Mild? Ok, probably best looking towards the Saucony Guide, Brooks Ravenna, Mizuno Wave Inspire. I was thinking of the J-33 more for the shorter stuff, if you're wanting a mileage shoe then I would agree it is too racey.
Brooks are in the middle of changing the Adrenaline (the 13 was very stable, the 14 significantly less stable, and the 15 appears to be midway between the two) so I would probably recommend staying away from it. The gel in Brooks brand is excellent however.
Yeah too much stability will not help - supination (lack of movement in the foot) is just as bad. Best way to look at it I think is that you want a natural amount of movement in the foot, you do not want to totally eliminate pronation.
The analogy I often use is that pronation is like sugar, it's ok to have some but not too much.
In other news, 18:48 & 1st at Hazlehead parkrun this morning. Not sure who stole my running legs as it was utterly grim, and I threw up last night's alcohol at the end. Being realistic about Abbey Dash tomorrow, it is not going to be a spectacular time so I am just going to enjoy myself.
OK thanks, will look at those. Saucony guide and mizuno wave were on my initial short list.
Well from what I've seen on fb, you've been living an unclean lifestyle these last few weeks!!
Good luck tomorrow.
Andrew - Agree with the others. A 2K time trial probably isn't the best tool to judge anyway. Just run at whatever pace feels comfortable. Once you've got a base established and are reintroducing sessions you can start to worry about pace.
Duck - Hope Abbey Dash went well for you!
So Brampton to Carlisle 10 miler for me today. This was a bit of a target race so I wanted to do well. Conditions were good and I'd had a mini taper so no excuses! Didn't feel great during the warm up but that's often the case after a couple of easy days. There were 3 of us aiming for sub 60 so we started out together and settled into a nice sensible early pace. I was expecting a flat course but it was more rolling with lots of small ups and downs. A fair course though and the ups and downs help you to keep concentration. I felt very easy and controlled for the first few miles and was really enjoying things. Seemed to reach the halfway point in no time at all. Clocked 29.42 for the first half so all in hand at this point. They had a 10k marker as well and I noted 36.50 at this point (the easiest sub 37 I've ever run!) At mile seven one of my little group pushed on and this made me worried my pace was dropping. I decided not to look at my watch again until the final mile. The next little section was tough and I was worried my pace was slipping. However when I hit 9 miles I saw I was on 53.30 so sub 60 was pretty much guaranteed. I just got stuck in at this point and gave whatever was left. A final mile of 5.50 and over the line in 59.21. Really delighted with that. I knew sub 60 was doable if I had a good run but I hadn't expected to do it so comfortably. Also pretty much perfect even splits, despite the second half of the course being tougher than the first half. Plugging that into Macmillan is now predicting a 35:30 10k and a 1.19.10 half. So hopefully some updating of other PBs is in order! Also finally got to meet Dr Dan after many years! Though I have to apologise for rushing off at the end to make sure the bus didn't go without me!
Thanks for the advice fellas. Gonna stick with current paces while I carry on base building over next 2 or 3 months. 7k today, felt comfortable and easier than the same time last week.
mr V - well done! Sounds like a good day! Any more races this year?