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Talkback: Lucozade Sport Super Six: Andy (sub-4:00)
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Lamjko
Yes you made right decision to ease back but probably would have been better having had an easier target and set off at 7:45s.
Cripes Lamkjo- still a good time & shows you have a faster time in your legs.
Andy- poop about getting the days the wrong way around weather wise. Glad I rested yesterday as blue skies & open hills for me today - Started out as a group of 7 & went off road for about 5 mile, through streams & over some lovely wet hills, group were heading back then but I hadn't gone far enough so I left them & added on some more to make a total of around 9miles. Couldn't really judge pace as 1st part was very slow & we often stop to allow regrouping but last 4-5 was def about 10mm.
I was thinking the same about off roaders being neutral as couldn't wear my new shoes today in the mud!! Looking forward to wearing them in a bit this week though.
Seren Nos, Steve... thanks for your comments - optimism usually gets the better of me but given the circumstances, perhaps the sensible thing would've been to set off at my worst case existing PB time i.e 7:45 and then taken it from there - lesson no 3.
Regarding your own times. Think it's amazing you've managed to keep your particular 10 miler race under 60 mins for 30 years. Envisaging elite athletes times is way out there for someone like me - the average guy off the street and sub 6mm for a decent mileage race (for me) is something i'll never experience. The guy who who the 4 villages today (David Webb) won it in 64 and a bit mins!
Andy - regarding the training days. There aren't too tough. The main purpose being getting you used to your target marathon pace as that is what the whole training schedule builds up to.
I agree with the others about off road shoes. They are much lower profile than road shoes with less cushioning (off road is usually softer than pavement) and less support (you don't want anything that will lessen pronation when you are running on uneven ground) . I've tried various off road shoes and most of them actually seem to encourage pronation. I generally run on road in Asics 2140's which are for mild to moderate over-pronators and I run off road in Mizuno Wave Harriers.
Oh and that Steve MC bloke. He's fast!!
Cheers Fat Face. I'm also a mild to moderate overpronator and I'm pretty sure my road trainers are the same model as yours. Left them at work so can't say for sure. Ascics don't give'em very catchy names do they.
I think the message is clear on the trail shoes. As with road shoes get down a proper running shop for advice first.
if they work don't change........
I got a pair of 2140's once by mistake of the net cheap........I was having a few more niggles but didn't think about it. when i went back to the running shop for some thing else I was talking to them and they looked at me running again and said that i definitely didn't need the extra support of the 2140's so went back to the 1140's......
I didn't think there would be much difference.
i think the best thing is to stick to what works
Week Three Plan (In theory)
M Interval (1M JOG, 3x1M FAST (400m recovery jog recovery), 1M JOG) (AM)
T 6M SLOW (PM)
W 1M JOG, 3M STEADY,1M JOG (on treddie) (PM)
T REST
F 4M EASY (AM)
S 9M SLOW (AM)
S REST
For me tomorrow is the key run. I'm going to go proper fast on the second "Fast" mile to see what sort of heart reading I get. I wander how this will compare to an "extreme" run I did on a treddie a few weeks ago (I ran 1m on treddie at 16kmph two weeks ago and only got to 174) and my theoretical (largely age based) MAX HR (188). I expect to take the third mile split much slower to compensate.
On the slower runs I'm looking for pace consistency which at the moment is a clear weakness for me.
Good to hear everyone's progress. I've been returning from illness and following a hybrid of the VLM sub4 and Shades'4/ week training.
This week I've run 4 x for the first time ever and completed 22 miles which is my furthest so I'm quite pleased.
4m 10m/m treadmill 1%
4m 10m/m, treadmill 1%
5m tempo, 3 @ 7.55, treadmill 1%
11m lsr undulating roads, av 9.17m/m, 150 av bpm.
TOTAL 22M.
I'm quite happy with this but too much treadmill due to the weather meant pacing was harder than usual ranging from slow to fast in the first 4 miles. I drank 1000ml luc sport and had a goodnes shakes straight after. In terms of urine test and energy post run I felt good.
God luck and allcomments welcome. Next week my lsr is 12m and total is 25.
I did 14 miles/2 hours yesterday at about 20 seconds faster per mile than my schedule suggests. So far my ITB is no worse than it was beforehand and didn't hinder me during the run - I think that's a positive sign. Averaged 8:29/mile (149bpm) but the pace fluctuated. Went off too fast (as usual). Message to self: start slowly. Then go slower.
I'm doing the 3 day week programme as my body needs a day to recover between runs. This programme requires some hard cross training sessions in-between so I've now joined the local gym. Now to find my lycra.
Weight gain during a marathon is pretty tricky as your body is craving so much food to aid your bodies recovery! I'm loving the posting of some alternative recovery meals! Keep them coming. Recovery bars and supplementation are often there for convenience so if you can get to a meal within 1 hour of finishing your run do so.
AndyV - How is the 'gear' treating you?! With regard to how much to drink before a long run, there is an element of trial and error. You will know when you have drunk too much (can't stop urinating) and when you haven't drunk enough (urine is a dark colour). Personally for me before I play rugby about 750ml from when I wake up usually sorts me out!
The hydration planner on the lucozade sport website is a great tool but just remember its only a guideline so you don't have to follow its recommendations exactly. And I would agree with testing it out on a few different types of runs in different conditions so see how much your sweat rate varies (make a note of it after every long run).
I would be more then happy to receive a food diary of AndyV (we can talk about this). Then if the forum are interested I can summarise any key points?
Camlo - After about an hour of exercise you need to start thinking about taking on some addition fuel (gel, sports drink etc). For each subsequent hour this should be 30-60g carbohydrate (LS gel = 30g, LS Body Fuel 500ml = 30g, LS Body Fuel 330ml = 21g). Definitely try and run with the drink for as long as possible as you want to keep your fuel levels topped up but drinking 'little and often'. Also take advantage of the water stations at VLM in order to keep yourself hydrated as well. I hope that answers your question.
Good luck with the session today Andy
the first one is to get the heart raised but should also be looked upon as a warm up for the second one and it's the second that should have the higher HR figures. i think it's important that you reach the last third to a quarter in good shape though and not wilting and slowing as it's a combination of time and effort that gets the heart high so if you went too fast too early your heart rate would be dropping as the pace slows so I would suggest maybe building the pace slightly on that second effort. ie if you were aiming for six minutes you would do quarters of 93, 90, 87 and then try and hang on in that final quarter. I think that way you would get a higher reading than if you did 85, 90, 95 and was slowing even if you were putting your heart under a certain pressure doing it that second way!
looking forward to seing how the run went Andy.
i did my interval session and found it easier than last weeks.it was 4X800 instead of 3x1M and by the look of the scheduloe semed to be thesame pace.did them on the treadmill so hopefully all other runs will be outside theis week.
did 30 mis cross training afterwards and then a sauna
Afternoon All
XX Brief as at the end of my lunch break XX
Phil W: Well done on stepping up to 4 runs a week. Only two weeks ago I was running 3 and now have to get used to 5 so i know how you feel.
You've rightly mentioned nutrition a few times on this thread. I'm going to speak to Gareth with a view to doing a weeks food/drink diary and getting practical advice on tailoring it to aid running performance. Hope this will be of some use to you and the the Sub 4 thread generally. Take Gareth up on his offer of posting any questions you may have concerning nutrition as well though.
King Rich: Yeah also happy with Supernovas. I'm in the fortunate position of having two brand new pairs (Adidas Supernovas and Asics 2140's). Happy with both but they are very different (the former is very firm and the latter cushioned) so need to work out which feels better for me.
Glad the ITB is behaving.
Seren Nos: Have to admit to also being a sauna fan after a gym workout (treadmill running or weights). I find they chill me out mentally if not literally.
Gareth (Lucozade Man)
750ML before playing rugby. Are you playing in the morning or getting up at midday and playing in the afternoon?
Re Food Diary Thanks for agreeing to do this. Sorry i should have contacted you before posting "i'll do it" on this thread. I'll send you an email (this afternoon or tomorrow latest) regarding how best to do this. Based on comments recieved so far I think your expert advice on this will be of interest to the thread. Be warned my current diet is far from perfect
Afternoon all, apologies for a long email, i have been catching up with the posts (good effort btw) as i don't have the luxury of the internet at home yet!)
AndyV - I did see that and wonder what you were on about, i wouldnt mind some of his money though
So i did an easy four miler on friday night before the LSR on Saturday. I havent got my individual mile stats on me, but my average pace was 9.06 min/miles, way too fast for what i was meant to be doing. I did 11.80m in 1h 47m 28s. I owe the quickness due to it tipping it down with rain from mile 4 through to 10. This and i got drenched by a car as it went through a puddle, i was wetter than if i had come out the shower! Will slow down next week on my LSR.
Camelback comments - For the first two miles it was very annoying an fiddly with the straw and the straps, but once i lost my inhibitions i really enjoyed it. I id get some strange looks when drunk some water. I also took water on two mile markers, so 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, it was a little treat for covering a bit more distance. As a training aid, i don't think you can beat this, i'm not sure if i would use it on the big day though.
Garmin autolap - This is a godsend, i'm so thankful that someone told me how to use it, you can't beat it!
Question time - I got talking to a friend abotu my training and mnentioned my route for the LSR on Saturday. I ran along the North Circular a406 anti clockwise (not sure if any londoners might know where i mean). This is a very busy road and gets heavily congested. His point was that this will affect my running due to the fumes that i inhale as you take in oxygen deeper into your lungs. I have never given it much thought, but would this be the case and should i plan another less polluted route instead?
Well done everyone with keeping to the schedule, I am planning to do the interval session tonight and push myself a bit further than i have so far!
yes I would suggest a different route, Simon.
The pollution will have an adverse affect on the lungs - not just the oxygen variance but also the fact that you are taking in a lot of rubbish and muck which could sit in the nose and mouth. You might find you wlll cough more and notice a congestion in the lungs on days when you run along particularly busy roads. While I have run along some good running routes around the River Lee at the east side of the north circular, I suppose there aren't too many countryside trails on the whole besides the A406!
Hi all you 5- times per week-ers!
I am only just recovering today, after my LSR of 27km on saturday (?roughly 17miles??)- previous longest was 3km less, and done on tready- my quads were very sore yesterday- DOMS, I suppose.
I did a weights/ core/ swim session today as one of my FIRST programme crosstraining days, but I must admit I was glad I didn't have to run!
Steve- what do you advise if I still have DOMS tomorrow- I'm scheduled for 10km at PMP - is this wise?- this week's other session is a hard intervals session, which I think would be even worse!
I could just do a slower run of same distance, or should I just get on with it, even if I'm a bit sore in the morning?
Tricialitt
You may be alright with a near 24 hours more recovery and it may ease after you have warmed up for 15 minutes but if it hasn't suggest just a slow recovery run and then try the session the day after or in 2 days. It isn't worth pushing it too hard with sore legs - firstly you would probably not do a good session and secondly you may injure yourself by not running smoothly or just make the legs much worse.
Evening All
Did Week Three's hard interval session early this morning (around 7).
(Steve: I did this before I saw your message re how to run the fast miles. What you suggests sounds logical as on mile three (max out) I was definately flagging at the end.)
Total Running Time 52:29 for 5.75 miles (147bpm average)
Splits:
1M jog (10.32, 136bpm), 1M Fast (7.14,162bpm), 0.25 Recovery (4.39,118bhp),
1 Mile Fast (7.02,158bpm), 0.25 Recovery (2.43, 150bpm), 1 M Fast (6.18, 176bpm),
0.25 Recovery (4.04, 131bpm), 1M Jog 9:52 (141bpm)
My aim was to run 7M for the first fast split, max out on the second to see what sort of HR reading I could get and then put in a c7.5M for the third (better if i had the energy).
Being a dumb arXe I forgot to turn off the Garmin data autoscroll beforehand and got in abit of a muddle trying to pace and retrieve the correct data screens. It was also still dark which didn't help when trying to look at the screen.
After first split (ok time and effort but messy pace wise) I amended my plans because I felt pacing was more important than the MAX HR test. Maybe more by luck than judgement I was pleased with second split as another 7M was my revised goal. I then went for it on mile three, though I was slowing towards the end of the split. The highest HR I saw on mile 3 was 183 still 5 short of my theoretical age based HR.
Overall the run was ok as long as i learn how to use the watch effectively. I'm finding pacing tough. My pace seemed to vary quite abit (9m to 11m) over short distances without any perceived change of effort on my behalf. I wander if on steady runs i should focus more on the average pace function rather than just 'pace' at the given moment. Any thoughts Steve and forum?
well done - I think you have a better idea of your maximum but it could still be anything from 183 to maybe even around 193. that sort of session in the warmth of summer when your body is better geared to the demands of speedwork would probably give a higher reading.
I tend to use average pace (pace lap) on the Garmin rather than the actual pace as that is more accurate and I do find the Garmin can have occasional unexplained ups and downs in the short term - maybe signal or surrounds related that wouldn't be such a factor on average pace.
So at the end of a mile, I look at average pace, and then on the next mile you get an update of what your average pace is and it's far easier to get the pace exactly right over that mile than if you rely on information that fluctuates far more.