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Beyond #asics262: life after Target 26.2 for sub-3:30 runner Malcolm
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Cheers DS2!
Work still busy? Haven't seen you round the forums much lately. How is the training going? Injury a distant memory now I hope?
Evening Malcs another good session.
I did the session in the RW plan, mile jog, 4x1m, mile jog. Again I had a window in the weather, and tbh it was a beautiful night for it. The streetlights were out for some reason so it was the half moon and starlight on the fields.
Last week it was 3 x 1m and I walked the recovery between the last two efforts. Tonight the first was a little harder, I put it down to Sunday's long run and just being back at work and so less sleep. I decided do 3 efforts and to walk each recovery, 0.2 of a mile. But I noticed on the second that I was feeling better so walked again, and changed my mind after three and went again to complete the session of four. On the jog back though, I felt heavy and thought that it was probably for the best that I stopped when I did, bearing in mind tomorrow is a 7 miler.
So my question for the team is, what is the ideal balance between the effort and recovery? I did feel a bit of a cheat tbh walking but I feel that my efforts had more integrity and consistency as a result?
Puffy - I'm no expert, but I think it doesn't matter as much what pace/time you take for the recovery period, as long as you do the reps at planned pace, but I'm sure Steve Coach will be able to advise you better.
The basic benefit of reps is to run a fast pace and build speed endurance. The pace is more important than the recovery but if the recovery varies too much and you have too much recovery then you may not build up sufficient endurance.
The reps should be reasonably consistent pace as the pace should be if you are racing and it is better to start reasonably gently and finish strongly rather than start too fast and slow down on each rep.
I prefer doing reps off a set time interval - ie today our group (33 at the track) did 10 x 800m starting rep every four minutes with an extra four minutes gap between reps five and six - so effectively two sets. Those running slower than 3:30 missed the start of reps 2, 4, 7 and 9 and ran 400m. Those were the steady paced reps and the other reps were variable paced - ie starting slower or easy first 100m on each lap and hard for 300m or 4 x 50m steady, 150m hard.
This way the range of paces are wider but the goal times remain roughly the same. I averaged about 2:55 but last one was about 2:40 so obviously could have gone quicker.
The recovery of these were shorter than the norm and very hard work for those doing 3:20 to 3:30! However, today's session was deliberately a tough excessive one and a minute less recovery than we were having before christmas.
Generally though if you are doing 800m reps say in 3:30 then if you do 400m recovery then that should be about 2:30 to 3.
I prefer going off a set point - say six minutes as if you just leave it to just a jog and then go, then the tendency is for the recovery to get longer and longer as you get slower and slower and it is easier if in a group to do it this way - though of course those running longer times get less recovery - hence the need to give more breaks to the less faster ones.
Hi Malcs, Norman park is £3.80 a time, you can turn up an pay as you go. I managed 5 x 1km last night. My reps were getting slower so felt it best to quit while ahead. Suffering from lack of consistency but will be doing my best to stick to your schedule - only 10 weeks to Barcelona now, and not much longer to Paris!
Keep up the good work!
Steve - many thanks for the explanation. So I see it's not your max speed that you're trying to increase with these sessions but your ability to tolerate a higher than MP speed for longer.
I did a fixed time rest period as you have suggested above and I can see why that's better than using a fixed distance. You do notice that you feel more recovered towards the end of the first rest than you do at the end of the last one.
Going back to Mr P's question then, assuming he had a fixed rest time would it matter much whether he jogged that or walked it?
Finally, presumably there isn't much point in specifically working on increasing max speed for marathon training then? You already know you can run fast enough it's then about being able to run at higher speeds for longer. Is that right?
Andrea - thanks for the info, sounds good. Will you be going at this time every Tuesday?
Well done on the 5 x 1K. How did you find the pace? Did you manage to stay on an even 4:15 per rep?
I'd forgotten your race is a few weeks before Paris. Eeek - 10 weeks doesn't sound like long at all!
Ruth - now that Christmas is over I've returned to more normal eating habits. I'm now incorporating your advice as well so I thought I'd post yesterday's eating so you can check it over.
I've notice that I am now getting hungry in the evenings (9:30/10pm) so that's when I've been having the evening snack that you suggested.
One other question for you, can you suggest some good dessert options? I'm cutting out the cakes and biscuits but I'm not sure I'll survive on just fruit and yoghurt for afters. Is there anything else that would be good to have?
I realise that the below has less fruit than you prescribed but we ran out
Also I think you said to eat lots of salad. I haven't really succeeded with that yet.
TUESDAY FOOD
Breakfast (8am)
Porridge (70g dry weight) + handful of raisins and a small squirt of syrup
Glass of water
Mid-Morning (also pre workout) Snack (10:30am)
Cup of tea
2 slices brown bread toast and marmalade
Satsuma
12:15 - RUN - 6M interval session
Lunch (also post workout recovery) (13:15)
Chilli con carne (was quite alot - a cereal bowl full) and rice (70g dry)
Glass of water
Afternoon Snack (16:00)
Tea cake and proper butter
Cup of tea
Dinner (18:20)
Sausage cassoulet (3 chipolata sausages, leeks, toms, onions and canellini beans)
Broad beans, peas and two small baked potatoes
Glass of water
Evening Snack (10pm)
40g all bran + 1 weetabix + 2 dessert spoons of home made museli
Cup of tea
Malcs - still following you
and impressed that you are making such good times and keeping up with all the sessions despite the weather.
Physio says no running for me this week either, but lots more strengthening exercises and when I can do plyometric moves without discomfort, I can start running - 1 mile and gradually build up. I'm back in India for next 2 weeks, so long runs were always going to be a challenge, and the positive side of this is that I don't have to dread the endless laps of a 0.6 mile jogging track!
Realistically I won't make this goal, but I'll still be in Paris and there is always Berlin in Sept....
How can you have tea at 10pm and still sleep? I have trouble sleeping if I have a cup of tea/coffee anytime after 4pm!
ArrowsLou - many thanks indeed!
Sorry to hear that you've run into a problem. Sounds like it's quite fixable though. A week out is not a massive problem, particularly at this stage. Last year I ended up only doing a 12 week programme and I got a massive PB so don't give up on your goal yet!
Hope you enjoy India!
Angela - ha
I forgot, I had another tea at about 8:30 too. Often we'll have a coffee at 10:30. Doesn't seem to affect me. I don't go to bed until 11:30-midnight though.
Thanks Malcs, I'll just have to see how it goes, at least I can top up my vit D and there's a gym which is 5 mins from my guest house, so I'll check that out.
I don't know how you manage to eat so much and stay so slim! Must be all this running you're doing...
Hi Malcs and all,
I see you are doing great with your training Malcs
I have asked this same question in my thread but I thought it would be also nice to have some views from you and your readers
I am ready to use gels during races. I am a bit "scared" as I have never used them but I am finally ready.
So your advice is very much appreciated!
Hi Malcs, yes plan of action is norman park at 7.15pm every tuesday, subject to work and family agreement. My pace was slightly off last night (between 4.20 and 4.30 for the last one, so some work to do for me!)
Malcs - in theory the quicker you do the reps the faster you will race shorter distances at and then they may filter through to longer races. However, the pace should be controlled and reps shouldn't be a series of sprints unless you are specifically doing a sprints session. Even 15 x 400m is an endurance session of sorts.
it's good to get a feel of what each pace is so you can slot into it effortlessly if doing a 5k, 10k half-marathon and marathon and know the difference between those paces so you run the right pace in races and when you are doing reps.
Certainly average pace of the reps is more important than fastest rep. Last night I finished well ahead of a few people on the last rep, who had been ahead of me for most of the other 9. They did the better session though as their average was faster.
While rep pace often suggests around 10k pace - the shorter the rep, the pace should be slightly faster - obviously easier to run faster at 400m than 800m and then mile but there shouldn't be a vast difference between the paces. For me it might be 84 at 400m, 2:54 at 800m (87) and 6:00 for mile (90) which unfortunately is a minute a mile slower than when I first started doing reps at Crystal Palace well over 40 years ago!
Malc, I'm coming round yours for dinner.... sounds good!
Excellent sessions, Malcs
I always found speedwork pretty challenging. Probably because I don't have any speed worth mentioning
In P&D they say recoveries should be between 50 and 90% of the interval. I usually walk a few steps (mostly I have to coz. I'll be dry heaving
Hi Minni & Malcs
Unfortunately you won’t absorb any Vitamin D no matter how blue/sunny the sky from October -April as the angle of the sun makes it impossible (even in Southern Spain but beyond this far south you will start absorbing Vit D) so you need to stock up over the summer and although I do not want to start a craze of the vitamin supplements but by feb for those that did not get any winter sun (South of Spain) I suspect a lot of those reading this will be running low and vitamin D is so important for immunity! Dietary sources are very limited (oily fish, egg yolk, fortified breakfast cereals & margarine and some foods aimed at babies!). Too much vitamin D is not possible from the sun and extremely unlikely from food. I really think that those that struggle with immunity or even stress injuries should consider a supplement but without blood results and medical advice I would strongly suggest not any more then 20ug or 800IU (5ug=200IU) as toxicity can happen through supplementation, this could cause calcium levels to increase in the blood and cause damage to your heat, blood vessels and kidneys. If going to supplement only take until the summer (if we get a summer) then try and stock naturally with the sun (20minutes between 11-3pm but don’t redden and burn). Also be very aware that if using other supplements that you are not double up on Vitamin to a level more than 20ug (micrograms) or 800IU (International units). Companies use either micrograms or the international units.
Isabel - yes all seems to be going suspiciously well at the moment thanks
In race nutrition is something that Ruth will definitely be wanting you to sort out as soon as possible because you have to practice with it to check that it doesn't cause you any ill effects.
It's an incredibly personal thing so whilst I'm sure we could all recommend things you'd probably find they are all different.
Personally I haven't got on great with a pure gel strategy so far so I switched to Jelly Babies. However, gels do tend to be better engineered for marathon fuelling combining complex carbs with alot of other useful additives like electrolytes and sometimes caffeine too.
As a result I now use a combination of 2-3 gels and up to 20 jelly babies.
This is just me though. If you can get on with the gels they are probably the better option. To make matters slightly worse gels vary alot from brand to brand and even within brands.
SIS seem to do a good range including isotonic gels which are less gloopy and easier to deal with as you don't have to take water with them.
I'd ask Ruth for some suggestions as this is completely her area.
Ooh, speak of the devil
(but a nice devil of course)
Hi Malcs
Dessert options that would provide you will some nutrients (rather than only fat & sugar from biscuits) is low fat custard or rice pudding??? or we could increase mid-afternoon snack and continue with cereal before bed and you might not need dessert every night? Can we look to increase mid- afternoon snack? you could have bagel & honey with glass of milk or banana sandwich & yoghurt or 2-3slices of malt loaf with cup of tea if want something sweet or teacake with honey & banana??? and cup of tea. Mix it up a bit?
Yes still here but about to post an essay so wait for it!
I posted the following on Roger’s thread and as we are going to be getting a carb load menu to Malc soon I thought I would give an overview of my thoughts towards nutritional factors which may affect performance during a marathon so you can see why carb loading is possibly helpful for some runners.
Marathon studies suggest that around 40% of runners hit the wall and those most likely to hit the wall include runners that don’t do the miles in training (running 20miles or less on training runs), lack of fuel (carbohydrates) & the expectation that you are going to hit the wall (most common at mile 21 or 33km). Taper will also likely play a part. This expectation point is an interesting one because it is not uncommon to see endurance runners cross the finish line then collapse ... suggesting their mind can make them get to the finish line before it gives up. Therefore having a plan for your mind when the going gets tough is an aspect of marathon training not to be overlooked and Victor the Asics Pro Team Psychologist is the man for this! Having Steve and Sam coaching the runners will significantly reduce the risk of hitting the wall as they know what distances you need to cover to avoid not doing the miles part!
That leaves the fuelling issue which is commonly talked about in marathon running: that running low in carbohydrates will make you slow down as your legs feel like they have turned too led! Unlike our large fat stores (the leanest of runners will have enough energy from fat to run back to back marathons) our carbohydrate stores are relatively very small. You often hear that if carbohydrate stores are fully stocked they will last for around 90mins however this is quite a simplistic view as each runner runs 26.2 miles at different speeds and if you run it faster you will use your carb stores up more quickly but as a guideline most people will use similar overall energy....running 26.2 miles faster requires more power but proportionally less time so if running it slower you still require the same energy overall but the slower runners may be able to use more fat and less carbs so the proportion/mixture of fat/carb use is different. However, running at a constant speed or maintain constant effort (when hills come into a race) is probably the most efficient way (metabolically/fuel) to race so pacing strategy is also crucial.
When your muscles are working they use a mixture of fat & carbohydrate, you will never use 100% carbs or 100% fat (protein accounts also for a small amount) but carbohydrate account for a greater proportion as intensity/speed increases while fat accounts for a greater proportion at lower intensities. You cannot release enough fat to use quickly enough at the higher intensities/speed during exercise, this why carbs become important for energy at higher pacing. Therefore the total carbohydrate use over the course of a marathon depends not only on the distance run but also the intensity it is run.
However the total amount of carbohydrates available to a runner will not only depend on how loaded they have manage to get their running muscles before a marathon (and this I will help with!) but also how big your liver is (physiology I can’t alter!) and also body mass/muscle mass (if you have a lot more weight to carry over the distance then your working muscle need to work harder to carry your body mass and hence use more energy). If very lean with large relative leg muscles this will cost less energy to transport, this is why most elite runners have good running economy & why body composition is important in endurance running. Often I look to cut down on weight particularly in the runners wanting faster times/beat their PB... providing the fat is there is lose!
...don't give up keep reading.....
In summary: Runners with large aerobic capacity/VO2 max (large engine!) and large leg muscles (relative to their size and can store more carbs in these than you or I) & can often store enough liver and muscle glycogen (carbohydrates) to run a marathon without hitting the wall and the need to take on little carbs during the race (some elites none) however this usually applies to those running sub 2.15. Runners with smaller VO2 max and smaller leg muscles relatively to size will run at a slower pace but will need to refuel (as don’t have big enough stores & running economy not as good ) and often benefit from loading muscles in the days leading up to a race.
So the need to carb load is not universal as it depends on muscle mass, liver and muscle stores but for those more normal people with a smaller horsepower engine then carb loading can help by allowing you to run at a given speed for longer and why I suggest carb loading (usually only for 2 days for most but occasionally 3 for some and sometimes only 1 day!) and some mid-race fuelling.
The need to fuel mid race will vary from person to person but there is a standard/safe fuelling method that I feel works for most people sub elite and that is to start early with carbs (like roger does and then regular intakes).Elites that do fuel during a race will often do this much later into the race but again these athletes are physiologically different due to the years of training.
Phew...I hope that makes sense and gives some background why carb loading is only one part of jigsaw!!!
Andrea - cool, I'll see if I can get over there at that time at least once in this campaign!
Steve - thanks for explaining that, very interesting indeed and great to know what the objectives are. In the past I've done so many sessions not really fully appreciating what the goal is and how to get the best out of it.
If I'm honest, aside from the long run this is probably true of all the sessions I've been doing so far
Would you mind providing similar explanations for the other sessions this week? So, today's was 7miles at 9mm pace, is this just to get miles on your feet or is there more to it than that? And to get the most out of the session what's the key thing to focus on?
A minute a mile over 40 years seems pretty good to me but I can understand it can be frustrating looking back. You made the terrible mistake of starting when you were a whipper snapper. If you start in your late 30's like me it's much better looking back
Dave - ha ha
You're more than welcome. However, I won't be coming to yours if quinoa is on the menu - I ate enough frog spawn as a toddler thanks
Bacon Chilli Jame is a different matter though...
chickadeee - oh I'm sure you do! Ah the dry heave, gotta love it. That stopped me running over the line at London a few years back. I was only 5 yards out too
I will tackle the train low (in carbs) on my next post at weekend.
I am planning to bring your carb loading plan to training day in a couple of weeks so we can discuss this face to face before I post so you have as much say in this as you wish!!!
The only others thing I would like to see is loads more colour in your diet (fruit & veg). It is important!!! Nag...nag ...nag I know but nagging is something I am rather good at
.
Hmm, whilst low fat custard sounds delicious (it really doesn't) I might pass on that
Rice pudding is a different matter though so thumbs up to that one. Does that include those Muller Rice things?
All for increasing mid-afternoon snack! Those options all look great (minus honey which I hate with a passion). However, I'm assuming jam is a good enough substitute?
Bring it on!
The advice on this thread is priceless, thanks Steve for the explanations re intervals.
I did 7 miles tonight too Malcs, 7.25 in the end, in just 60 minutes. I felt very heavy after last night but it went well and I managed a good effort up the hill to home. I'm glad I'm not under the nutrition microscope, I had fish & chips at lunchtime, then after my run...mmmm fish pie.
it was raining heavily tonight, I actually fell asleep as soon as I got home, but luckily the alarm clock went off at 6:30 because I hadn't turned it off this morning, and I told myself that if I was going to bale on a midweek medium run in week 3 then I might as well pack it in now and off I went.
tomorrow is four miles so I think I'll do the two miles at mara pace that you did last week Malcs.
Thanks for taking the time to post all that info Ruth, reallly appreciate it.
It's fascinating stuff I have to say.
Looking forward to talking carb loading, though not as much as doing it
I was expecting some nagging about the fruit and veg and probably need it to be honest. If it wasn't for Mrs Malcs hiding it away in her cooking my veg intake would be much lower than it is.
I have been shopping today. I also ate two tangerines and a sharon fruit (on the supermarket shelf next to the Tracey fruit)
I know what you're going to say though - all orange in colour! I know, I know 
It's a bizzare thing I have to say. Looks like an unripe tomato, tastes a bit like a nectarine, skin like a squash. I quite liked it.
I would rather Steve answer this, research l suggest that those that don't do the long runs including at least a 20 miler are ones most likely to suffer.