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Moraghan Training - Stevie G
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I did an 8 once, and that felt a fair effort!
I'd have to down it to a lesser rate to get a 10 in.
Going through some VDOT/Threshold stuff with Jonas, but it's unfamiliar to what I've done before. However, I've completely changed training style at the start of this thread, so am willing to open it up now.
Therefore, tomorrow, instead of a standard 5miles at either 6.00 or what i'd created as the new zone of 6.10+, i'm going to go for 3x10mins at the Threshold pace off the VDOT calc 5.52 - 1.28 lap. I'll end it at the nearest 200m after the 10mins is up, to make sure the maths is sensible.
Looking forward to it, it'll be more fun this way, and may be the start of a good period of training. Depending on how this goes, I'll look up the other threshold sessions, as I remember Jonas got some incredible results building this zone up.
Great performance at BB Half Wool, not an easy one that. You are indeed in great race form this year and must be confident racing now at pretty much any distance.
Last Battersea Park 5k tonight so thought I'd better make the effort even though I go on hols at 5am tomorrow! Still too hot but not quite as bad as last week for the 5miler. Loads there tonight and a tricky start with lots of jostling and one guy fell over which caused a bit of a backlash where I was a few metres back. Anyway still through a k in 3'31 and feeling good. Pace around me steadied a bit then so pleased to go with that and the next 3 k's rolled by all about 3'40. Hanging on a bit by the end but, despite being about 3'45 for the last one finished in 18'24. Pleased with that (especially as I measured it 5'04k again, but that's probably just my Garmin). 25 seconds better than my last effort there in June but still not good enough even for top 3 v50's (needed sub 18 for that tonight!).
Saturday was Reading parkrun and 3rd of over 300 there in 18'43 so that was ok too. Glad to have a break from racing for a few weeks now. Been a manic last couple of months with 2 BP 5k's, a BP 5 miler, 5 10k's, 5*1k relay and a parkrun every week
Right better go and pack for this holiday and then get some sleep
I concede I'm missing the point of the discussion here though.
Maybe this is about wanting to be a faster runner, but wanting to collect data and play with numbers more.
In football terms, I hear lots of discussions about all sorts of things, but to me there's only one objective - win the match. How it's achieved and by who is an irrelevance.
I'm trying to get across, don't get bogged down in the details when something more fundamental is being ignored.
And well done on another race Pete.
If you have the capacity to keep cranking them out, then go for it. However, if you want a different result, you're going to have to do something different.
Have a nice holiday. Maybe a chance to change the current pattern for improvement.
🙂
Suppose I'd better do a report from Saturday at the MK 5000 festival.
Got there, a bit breezy, which was annoying, but not too bad. Had a look around, had the outside 4 lanes cordoned off and there was a few food and drink carts there which was nice. Saw Dachs briefly after I had done my warm up. Had a chat with Dave Hudson, who I had met at the Aylesbury-Tring double parkrun on new years day - he's a V35 and improving quite rapidly.
Bit of rain in the air - thought I would try and hit 3.10k's to bring me in about 15.50 and improve on the last 2 BAL suffer fests. This time there is a guy on the 200m mark doing projected finishing times, so that's new and very handy to see how you are doing. I think the first K is done in around 3.05, so quicker than I had planned - but it's cooler than the last 2 races and it starts raining too and I just feel stronger in this sort of weather. I have to brige the gap at one point as I am left at the front of the 2nd group.
So with the projected times being shouted out as we go through the 200 I forget about the K times and just count the laps down - now on about 15.40 pace and feeling relatively OK, but annoyingly I get a stitch that probably costs me a couple of seconds, but I come in with 15.38, so very pleased to be back in the 15.30's. It also get me back to the top of the V45 5000m rankings, but not sure for how long as I heard my v45 nemesis James has just done 15.19 for a parkrun!!
Had a shower and caught the last few laps of Dachs' race. Obviously I will leave him to fill us in on the details. Was pissing down at this point, but good to stay and watch the remaining races - the last lap pace of the winner of the BMC A race was incredible..
Easy runs the last 2 days, schedule tonight says 4 x 2k in 6.20's - 1 minute recovery. Another nice easy one!
I've had a summer lashing the shorter stuff, but need to solidify it to longer stuff now. People always dispute the MP zone, and tell me Threshold is the one, so thought i'd have a sample of it.
Had fun with the 3x10min threshold session. I suppose not a million miles away from the 3x2miles HMP, but a little faster, and a little shorter, and more importantly, at the start of the block, rather than peaking towards the end.
Aimed for around 1.28lapping which is the 5.52 VDOT based on the 16.56 5k (Johnas helped me with this new concept!).
As i was on the track, I completed the nearest 200, which in reality meant 7 laps per10mins, so 10.16 or so, came out
1x1.26,2x1.27,4x1.28
2x1.26,3x1.27,2x1.28
1x1.26,5x1.27,1.28
So probably 5.50 average which will do me with my first delve back into tempoing. Definitely the comfortably hard zone, bucketing sweat as still very humid.
Will have a look at how to build on this, but for now, just eat and recover.
That's some catalogue of races Pete, I reckon that's about two years worth for me.
Good tempo running SG, not sure I could handle doing that on a track. Maybe I could though. I'd fancy doing track sessions at lunch but I can't see a track around where we work. I've yet to spot you monstering around the estate.
Yesterday I had the feeling that I spend too much time either languishing around 7:30 pace or doing 7:00 pace but not enough speed. I also have this achilles niggle so I am a bit scared to try any proper speed work. I ended up doing 15 minutes really easy then for about 25 minutes I did 30 seconds just running harder but looking to run with good form and then 30 seconds easy and repeat.
Not sure if there's any merit in a session like this but it allowed me to do a good 12-13 minutes at 5k pace without really feeling like I'd done much. I might develop it and extend the intervals each week until it's maybe about 3 minutes at 5k pace.
Cheers Both - Yes the MK thing was good, suppose just needs a few more runners but it had great potential. On the link on PO10 all the splits are up, my 3-5k was 6.18, so that's the sort of pace I have to do tonight.
Good sesson SG - tempos are really tough sessions, probably the hardest of any I feel. Quite right to go steady Reg if you have a niggle. There's always a need for more speed I feel! I always thought that, and will never forget how it helped me in the Berlin marathon. Sure you need the miles in the legs..but speed is essential to top it off, although I'm preaching to the converted here probably!
Odds on I've forgotten it was something that I once did that allowed me to do the stuff that I think made me faster.
More than odds on.
Excellent 5000m Simon.
The pace you're going is about the same as I could once manage for a set of 200's adding up to the same distance.
I'll need to do some faster longer runs myself if only to fill in parts of pace which I missed last time I ran the Round Norfolk Relay. I paid for that on that occasion.
I'd done the long runs, and speedwork of sorts, but just after half way (20 mile leg), all sorts of muscles started complaining. Reason? they hadn't been given prior warning in the preceding months.
So, all paces needed.
You are right SG.
🙂
Occasionally Ric! And with tempos, only through knowing how i'm lacking something when I don't do them. I suppose technically, today was "Tempo reps" which is less usual, but a nice way in. I'll have to work out what the next session is with Johnas# programme. I suspect I've bundled in half way in fairness, but what might be a good bet, is using 4-6 weeks to get up to longer race fitness, then having a "Proper" long base buildup at the end of the year/Jan etc.
Agree totally with Simon on tempos being the hardest runs. Lashing short stuff is the glory stuff, and while not in the league of some on here, my short reps certainly set a standard that falls away as the distances go up. Though strangely, pound for pound my longest distance races are my supposed strongest! Funny old game.
I think that Norfolk relay is even more of an incredible organisational job, in a year we couldn't get a decent 12 stage team out for the nationals, and didn't even bother trying for the 6 stage vets.
Another footy game tonight, that's 3 in 5 days. No doubt there will be periods of no game for 2-3 weeks, so it happens.
Does mean I won't get back into the medium long run the day after the Tue sesh quite yet. 4&4 as an easy day will do tomorrow.
SG, what an epic report on the mile race. I really felt like I was in the car with you. Whether I wanted to feel like that is another matter of course, but there you go. Impressive after such a hectic start to shave a fair bit off last year's time. Nice parkrunning and relaying also.
Matt H, great half marathon performance there, and surely a sign of better things to come. And then a coastal trail race! You didn't exactly ease back into racing gradually!
Bus, excellent beach racing. Galloping through the dunes like a true pure-bred stallion, pausing only to briefly retch into the sand. Class.
Pete, the Battersea results sound like a good sign that things are falling back into place.
Simon has raced too many times in the 7 days since I last posted to comment.
Then it was the Milton Keynes 5000 PB Fest or whatever they're calling it on Saturday evening. Unusually, I felt full of zip and bounce on the warm up, which was surely a good sign. By the time my C race started it was pissing with rain though and a little blowy. Made a sudden decision to switch to spikes to make sure I didn't have foot slippage issues. Fell into line at the back for the first couple of laps, with the plan to hold 73s as long as I could. Well, that wasn't very long at all, and started falling off that pace from about a mile on. However, others faded worse, and I was picking up places. I do wonder if I lost concentration a bit thinking all was well when I was passing people, without realising that they were just melting down. Anyway, about 3K in I realised it wasn't going to be a PB day and sure enough the pace gradually slowed. Managed to outkick someone in the home straight again (second time in a week, WTF?) and bringing it in for 15:31.61. So reasonably decent if shy of what I wanted. Still, ranked 10th V40 in UK off that, so not bad.
Hung around to watch the faster people in the BMC races, but it was pretty nasty weather by then.
Wimbledon tomorrow night will be my last shot at a quick %k this year to try to maximise my chances of being in the A final for Malaga. At the moment I'm ranked 17th of 60 on the basis of declared times, so it's up in the air. Need to make sure with a PB.
Tried the 4 x 2k off 60 secs on a school grass track tonight. Not a bad surface. But the final bend was slightly uphill and into the wind. The wife kindly timed me too, came out as 6.28, 6.24, 6.29, 6.33. Christ that was hard.
so here's a question for you guys - do you think that racing provides any inherent training benefit? Does completing one race prepare you physically for the next (I think it helps mentally, for sure) or are you just so close to the limit on race day that you're doing more damage than good?
We might run tempos at HM pace in prep for HM season but does 13.1 all out make you stronger for the next HM?
I'll grant that appropriate recovery is important but let's assume that this done well (big assumption).
Would be interested in your thoughts. Thanks.
For shorter races for example, you can probably do a lot more races, as you recover quicker and they're less taxing. For half marathons, you can't expect to repeatedly smash those.
In 2018, I've done 24 races so far, but i'd say i've done 2 specific training plans. One to build to the Feb half marathon, and a long 5k specific block (while keeping mileage fairly decent).
On top of that I've done a stack of relays - which are like good training sessions, and mile races, both of which haven't taken me too far off kilter.
Moz, whose thinking still underpins a lot of my training, once told me you can only go to the "well" so many times. Hence having me peak twice a year back in the day.
He also said it's a big effort to put in 2 big half marathons 6 weeks apart. From my experience of doing halfs that close, he was spot on.
A lot of Dashers do plenty of races back to back, but when you look at their times, they're not by any means maximising.
But agree with SG, easier to do with shorter races.
I've always found a benefit in racing a couple of 5Ks in preparation for a target 5K. It always seems like it helps to zero into the pace required, and certainly helps with practice at maintaining concentration for the full race. I find I can let my mind wander a bit in longer races, but for 5K and less I need to keep focused.
Also, on basis of the rule of thumb of one day recovery per mile, you can fit it into the structure of a standard training week with 2 x hard sessions - so a 5K race on the Monday for example and a decent training session on the Thursday.
Anything of 10K and longer, and you might be into the area of training benefit being outweighed by the loss of good training opportunities whilst you recover from the race.
As Dachs mentioned (well done on the last race btw) that one day per mile recovery is quite close. It's not meant as the next time you can race. It's meant as the first time your training has any chance of enhancing your ability as against just wearing off more of what you have.
Others will say yes, without any evidence that it does. That's because the reality of racing not making them faster, is an inconvenience in relation to their wish to race as often as possible. Which they do.
🙂
🙂
Unfortunately, PO10 reveals my racing has become next to zero. The reason for that is that I rarely if ever get to the stage where I can race without finishing injured.
🙂
10 today, re adding the medium long midweeker. Used to come on the Wed after the Tue hard session, but if it's a late night, it wouldn't be wise, so Thursday happens.
Will work on a track type sesh tomorrow.
Johnas has given me 6 weeks of threshold sessions to work off, so i'll plot how they fit in round a potential 1 or 2 last 5k races, and any Datchet sessions that may be worth a look. Not the short reps though - trying to smash yourself racing clubmates over very short distance doesn't seem a marvellous idea.
thanks chaps, interestingly uniform response there. I guess Pete is away on hols though! Given that we're in / coming out of 5k season there's an obvious focus on 5ks and I completely agree that getting the right feel needs a bit of practice and quite a lot of concentration.
SG - saw today's run on Strava this morning. Really, do you want me to plot you some routes that aren't as simple as running up and down a main road and back?! I know Fetch is a dirty word round here but it really does have an excellent route planning tool that's based on OSM which means you can plot on paths / bridleways as well as roads.
Well I did 13 miles around the local woods in the rain. I'll attempt to post the route which was a multitude of loops up and down hills.
No speed involved, I just wanted to back up the run I did on Sunday. I expect to recover faster from this run though.
I used to stick to roads once, but once I'd discovered the fun of getting an OS map out and devising routes along footpaths and trails, the roads seem a bit passe.
However if exact distance and pace is the prime objective, then I guess road or track will have to do.
Apart from that, my imagination for running routes doesn't extend to shitting myself at the thought of getting lost.
On reflection, I need to be running off road since it's odds on I will be shitting myself.
🙂
Ric - not sure if sign in is needed but looks blank?