Talkback: Lucozade Sport Super Six: Christina (sub-3:00)

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  • Snow/ice has pretty much gone here now so 17 miles for me today at 8.07m/m. That's 38secs/m quicker than the exact same run in prep for Abo last year. Had a Mule bar about an hr before & 1.2l of fluid on the run. What's the view on fuelling prior to a long run? Is there any advantage in going out on a empty stomach to 'train' the body to use fat rather than carbs?

    RSalter, interesting reading your areas of focus, they are very much the same as what I identified from last year as what I think I need to pull myself up to a 3hr.

    Running at threshold always seems easier in a race. Trying to to do it on a training run I find really hard. Maybe I just need to man up.

  • TRTR ✭✭✭

    Blimey, I count all of my miles cos I rarely go over 50. However most of my runs are at least 8M.

    Running isnt rocket science, its  left after right in a consistent manner in my book, th hardest thing about running is getting your trainers on and out the door.

  • Well done to all who braved the elements todayimage

    I had a really good run, despite the snow underfoot and the snow falling from above during most of the run! We went to Ickworth House - a National Trust property in Suffolk with waymarked trails all off road. Used a 2-mile loop as a w-up, before completing 2 loops of the 7-mile marked trail. Really hard work, up hills, and through woods etc., but so satisfying at the end. Finished the first loop in 52minutes and the second in 49minutes - not sure how accurate the distance was, but I know that I was working hard coz by the end my legs were burning!!

    Hilly - like you I only concentrate on pace during my key-sessions

    JBFAR - I 've now completed 8 marathons and looking forward to Londonimage

    Scruffmeister - what time did you run at Abingdon?

  • Agree about the Kenyan use of progressive runs.  I referenced them for a couple of reasons - one being the habit of often one of their runs (out of 3!) on a particular day being run very slowly (i.e. some peoples "junk" pace) and also because it's a fair bet they spend a good amount of time running in Daniel's junk zone as part of these progression runs.

    The Japanese would be another example of a succesful running nation who run a lot of mileage - with much of it at very slow paces - "junk" again.

    I agree to a certain extent with regards to steady state being the most effective way of progression and like your caveat about other key sessions.  For relatively new runners (4 years or less approx) this sort of paced running amongst other quality runs seems too demanding - unless of course it's introduced gradually and usually in the latter part of runs only when the athlete is feeling particularly good (i,e. it's not deliberate).  In fact that's how most experienced runners would do it - the difference being that by virtue of their running background (6 miles each way to school each day for example) they would naturally feel capable of doing it more regularly as part of their easy runs and for a slightly higher proportion of the run than newer runners.  A good example of long term consistent training feeding on itself in the guise of more work of a higher quality with no noticeable extra effort. 

    I know from my personal point of view it's rare that I will feel good enough to push easy runs past 75% while doing other scheduled quality sessions until well into my base period (i.e. after 20 weeks!).

    Personally I think Daniels regrets being so adamant about the quality junk and he's gradually trying to back away gracefully under the weight of anecdotal evidence!

  • The Japanese I think start their runs at barely above walking pace and gradually increase during the run.  I guess when you're running 200 miles a week you can do whatever you want in the early stages of each run.

    Thanks for the quote, I only have the 1st edition.  I had Daniels wrong - he's not gradually backing away he just came out and said it!

  • I find it hard to run any miles 'fast' during marathon training.  Maybe because I'm a naturally slow twitch runner.  I have to really concentrate on doing key sessions to work on my weaknesses, which are V02 max and speed endurance.  I really dislike 'speed sessions' again most probably because it's not what my body finds easy, yet I can sprint easily.  Maybe I should've been a sprint specialist rather than a marathon runnerimage

    When I first built up my miles from running 40 mpw to over 70 I remember feeling like I was nearly walking and didn't want anyone to see me running - lol.  Then one day it just clicked into place, all relative of course, and runs started to feel much easier.  Now running 70 miles feels like an average week and I wouldn't even contemplate a marathon running anything below this mileage.  But then I guess I've worked out what works for me and high mileage is it.  I'm not talented, just hard working and determined so need to think in terms of how much can I do, not what do I need to do.

  • I've witnessed countless times that the people who run more often at steady pace (about 80 - 85% MHR) progress far quicker

    Yes they will progress far quicker to begin with.  The two questions to address once plateauing occurs are:-

    1.  How to realise more of the athletic potential, and

    2.  Whether running all an athlete's miles at 80%+ MHR is sustainable in the long term.

    In answer to number 1, I would suggest that taking one step back to move two steps forward is the answer.  Once a runner has plateaued, they need to consider areas of weakness they can improve on to move forward.  If all training has been high aerobic (80%+) or LT or VO2 then the obvious weakness would be at the slower end and so training the body to run faster at easy aerobic pace (70%) would then feed back through the higher end paces.

    6 years ago my 70% running would be at just under 7:40 pace.  By working 80% of my weekly mileage around there it has dropped to ~7:10 pace.  Therefore the pace as I move up through the HR zones improves to.  A bit like squeezing the toothpaste from the bottom of the tube once you've got out the masses of readily available stuff at the top (cue Hadd wars 2010).

    For number 2, it is my observation that people training this way are more likely to break down consistently and fail to achieve potential in the long term.  Consistent consistency is the key.  If it means running some runs slower to keep the training churning out week after week then so be it.

  • Rsalter Hello!  Thanks for your input- it's interesting you note core stability has helped you lots.  Do you go to the gym regularly then?  The RW programs do not include anything but running, no weights or core- I wondered what everyone else thought about this?

    Great debate about junk miles and theories- I am going to google them later!

    Paul SoI need to listen to my body on all runs and make sure I hit pace on key sessions.  Just to confirm, these key sessions are my Tuesday speed and Thursday and LSR on Sunday?

    5 miles easy for me today- there has been no let up in the weather where I am unfortunately!

  • JBFAR - core is a great extra on top of the running programme.  It's something I try and incorporate.  As has been said, the RW schedules are not personalised, so someone keen enough to put in extra sessions like core will do so, and those who are happy to tick off the box each day will do so too.

    I used to be of the mind that if I had a spare 30 mins that should be spent logging extra miles.  But now I would use that to stretch / do core as that is better for me in the longer term.  I spent 2005 running myself into an injury by running running running without protecting myself by looking after the whole body.  That was the only injury I've had in 9 years too!

  • RS78RS78 ✭✭✭

    JBFAR - I qualified as a personal trainer in July 2008 and was doing the course during training for London 2008. So yeah I'm in the gym all the time now! I hadn't really done enough core stuff then for it to make a difference as I only started the course mid march and the race was a month later.

    In London 2008 I had a certain degree of back pain from 20 miles onwards and the thing is as you get tired your posture suffers leading to your stride suffering. Now I've noticed on long runs and in general the increased strength has just had a major impact on runs. Exercises like the plank (aiming to hold for 1 min or forearms on a swiss ball for added difficulty) work the lower back and deep core muscles. I just feel more upright.

    I wouldn't worry so much about weights so much but exercises like the leg press/squats/lunges will improve strength in the legs. I would ask your coach about whether to do these. I do them now and then but with core I always get in atleast 2 solid sessions per week.

    I've found the rower (if yr injured or fancy some cross training)has been excellent for building power/strength/fitness too as it's the perfect combo of cardio and whole body resistance training. I had to use it a while ago after a hip complaint and it's definitely had a profound affect.

    image
  • jbfar, a good core program designed specifically runners:

    http://www.solpt.com/images/Coretraining.pdf

  • Hi all.

    How important is it that you maintain a pace ion an LSR? The plan i am following expected me to do a 16 miler between 1.54-2.05, which is a pace bracket of about 7.08mm to 7.49mm. I did the run in 8.04mm [average]. I feel 7.08 mm is a little fast to be able to complete the week ahead without struggling? 7.49mm is fine but i felt a little off yesterday. Maybe a little dehydrated.

  • Thanks for advice regarding the core exercise- I like the fact you can do alot at home and combine it with your stretching rather than having to go to the gym.  I will try some of those...
  • Interesting debate on “junk” miles and training paces. I particularly like BR’s toothpaste analogy.

    I’ve been running for about 3.5 yrs now and I’m really hoping I’ve still got a bit to squeeze out of the middle yet (to get me from 3:09 down to 2:59) since squeezing from the end, Hadd – style, would probably require more miles than my 40-45pw!

    Can’t see myself doing much more mileage so maybe trying to do the good stuff around the edges such as core work, cutting down on booze, eating and sleeping better may make a difference. 3:05 or so would be a horrible place to plateau!

    I think many in the 3:00-3:15 band of marathon running tend to run their miles in rather a narrow band, with the easy and recovery miles arguably too quick and the tempo miles too slow. However, on 40-45 mpw you can’t afford too many slow miles and there should be plenty of time for recovery between sessions. My typical week has some similarities to JBFAR’s, though it looks like she will have some additional easy-steady miles around it.

  • I have to admit that I am by no means an expert but if you follow a structured training plan then each session will have a specific purpose and there would therefore be no room for 'junk' miles? Also, picking up the pace of an easy run when you feel good (and it's tempting and we probably all do it) within the context of said structured training plan would compromise the effect of the specific speed sessions for the week, which are hopefully all building towards peaking for a target race/goal etc?

    Just a thought..

  • The whole group do it in sub 6min/mile pace (covering 20miles). At first he nearly died doing it, after a couple of months he found it comfortable. It's one of the biggest reasons he puts down to improved fitness.

    Something I can acknowledge there.  Last year I did 4 x 20 mile races in consecutive weeks ranging from 5:58 to 6:30 pace and the week after (whilst still not totally recovered) broke my 6 year old 10k pb.  However the fact I was able to do the 4 x 20 milers (3 of them coming the day after XC races) I put down to the solid endurance base I had built over many years careful running.

  • Jokerman - the caveat was that I was not fresh enough come marathon day.  I had put too much into very hard long Sunday sessions and would have been better off doing 2 shorter sessions in the week.  The sub 2 hr was more of a race as I wanted to break that barrier.  Too close to MP.  Slight over-reaching.
  • I did 6.24 miles today (easy) was supposed to be 5 miles but due to snow had to reroute... I won't count the extra 1.24 miles as junk though image

    I think I do need to do some MP stuff as it seems pretty quick to me at the mo and would feel more confident to know I can go for a few miles doing that pace! I think its important for me to get a feel for what the MP feels like so I can do that with no probs on the day

  • N&S, managed 3.14 at Abo. Was heading for a 3.12, maybe 3.11, until mile 22 when the wheels fell off. Had a reflect on the race after & at the HR data & I think a lot of it was down to not drinking enough.

    Which leads me to the next question, how frequent are the Lucozade stations on the course? I believe water is every 2miles(?), but the Lucozade? Oh, & I'll repeat the question I asked a while back about LSR's on an empty stomach, good to train the body to use fat or not?

    JBFAR, you're not alone in thinking MP is quick. Give it a few weeks though & once you've done a few faster runs it'll not seem so impossible as it might sometimes seem now. How are you finding the attention now the first week is out of the way? Wishing you hadn't put your name down or finding it motivating being in the spotlight?

  • RS78RS78 ✭✭✭

    Yeah I agree with Jokerman, I don't see the point in long sunday runs on an empty stomach. Doing LSRs eating roughly what you will eat on the day will prepare your body and replicate what you will ultimately put your body through. LSRs just increase your efficiency using fat as a fuel as stated above and to be honest with the sheer volume of training I wouldn't worry about fat loss et, you'll burn enough calories. If you really want to be focused, properly assess what you put into the system, portions and when you eat. Tackling these will seriously help with weight loss.

  • I agree- I used to do a lot of morning runs before breakfast as it's a good time to fit them in- but now I try and train at lunch or in the evening so I have some carbs to fuel me on the run.
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