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Moraghan Coaching - kaysdee
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Thats fair enough - am sure the kids will keep you running around!
10 miles is a great distance and its usually club run races because its unpopular so cheap and cheerful too! St Albans/Fred Hughes 10 is my fav event of the year
My only one was the Thirsk 10 in November, can't fault that. Will definitely explore more later in the year/next year.
I'm going to do 3 miles tomorrow, 4 on wed and 3 on Thur and leave it at that.
Think I'll just keep all the sessions easy.
I'll be travelling to Blackpool around mid-day on Saturday and we're taking the two youngest, so that'll be an early night since they will not sleep in hotels otherwise! Lots of giggling from them until lights out.
OH did that one - I got wet doing a training run at the same time! Good course apparently, but we got stuck in the mud in the carpark and had to be pulled out by a landrover
I always think of the night before as not that important - its Friday night where you want to get lots of kip...which is why I am getting the train to Leeds at 11:30 pm
We are travelling over on Sunday morning, including a lovely stop at the Bolton services
I think keeping everything easy makes sense for you because of the 10k still in the legs - I'll prob inject some MP into my runs but take Sat very easy (going to start at the back and jog round I promise).
Hope everybody had a great Easter break.
That's excellent, and all that on a tough course. Imagine what you could do well rested and on the flat … I always feel tired and sluggish during the taper phase. I think it's all that adaptation stuff your body goes through.
.
Kaysdee: Well done on your shiny new PB.
Getting Skins instead of the P&D book for Mother's Day was the better deal. The book is only a tenner or so … I wouldn't be without my Skins now. Love 'em.
Sue: you are being too modest
Curly: completely agree. 10ks are bliddy hard work
I hate the wind too. No matter how many times I'm telling myself "you are shaped like a wedge", it doesn't work
Bit of a rubbish weekend for me. Came down with a cold and had to can the last 20 miler that I had planned. No running at all on Sat/Sun, then a gentle 6 miles yesterday. Am over the worst and TBH, now is probably the best time to get this. Still 3 weeks to go to recover properly but the hard work has been put in and it's TAPER time. Yay!! The OCD side in me is of course looking for ways to make up for the missed 20 miler and is hoping to fit this in mid week. "Not a chance" says the voice of reason. The OCD will have to succumb...
Chickadeee, recover well and enjoy the taper! I'm glad it's not just me then, most other people seem to have boundless energy and feel fresh and raring to go, yet I feel the complete opposite on a taper.
Well, my little snot monster has struck again. Every important race!
Eldest son catches every bug going and seems to be permanently ill from around Nov - April.
I've now got a cold with 5 days to go.
Doesn't seem too bad at the moment, but I did my 3 miles this morning, to loosen my legs from Sunday more than anything, and it was flipping hard work even at a ridiculously slow pace.
5k in 28.44, avg 9.16.
Sigh.
If I don't feel on top by the weekend, I'll probably still do it, but seriously revise the target.
.
GFA is all I really want at this point, but I should be able to do so much better
))))))))))))))) healing vibes (((((((((((((((((
kaysdee - could be the 10k still in your legs? Hope you pick up soon.
chickadee - I am the same, I am looking back on my training since January. Despite the fact that I have averaged over 50mpw even when you take into account cut back weeks and a few missed runs because of life getting in the way I am still worrying about the missed training rather than feeling good about all the miles in my legs!
I am toying with two things at the moment. Firstly setting out at slower than marathon pace at Lochaber and picking up i.e aiming for a negative split. Never done that before. Secondly canning Abingdon (which I am itching to do) in favour of nailing my sub 70 ten miler time and sub 90 half as I still don't think that I have sqeezed out all that I can out of my shorter distance stuff to take up to the marathon.
Mmmmm...
What time are you shooting for on Sunday Curly?
ps - I like this thread btw!
It could be the 10k as I did nothing yesterday to help the legs along, but again it was the breathing that was the hindrance. I don't know what else I can do about that as I don't have any problems outside of running and already take my inhaler before "stressful" runs (anything other than easy).
I've done 631 miles so far this year so just short of 50mpw on average, although that includes a couple of weeks taper for the Brass Monkey, a couple of weeks off through injury and my current taper.
Since I consider Blackpool to be a practice race rather than a full on attempt, if I do feel ok on Sunday I'm going to try to aim for :
First half @ 8.15 to give 1.48.15
Second half @ 8.10 to give 1.47.00
3.35.15
Although, pretty sure if it looks like I'm on track by 24 miles, I'll find 16 seconds from somewhere to go sub 3.35
. Who knows what will happen though, could be a lot slower! The paces above are a big jump from my pb pace of 8.48 (although obviously a year ago and with much better training/times since), so I'm sure there is an element of doubt of whether I can even do that, although on paper with a half time of 1.41 it looks "easy"!
I suppose it all comes down to which is the better season for you to find key races and availability to train. I know it sounds contradictory, but would you feel more pressured to be doing more key pace work for a shorter distance over the summer holidays etc, assuming you'd be targetting Sept/Oct for races. I know I'd panic if I was missing quality sessions over easy miles banked for a marathon.
I've just determined to give the marathon a final shot this year, do some proper base training at the end of the year/begining of next and then really hammer my shorter distances down, sort of like starting from fresh. I'll look at the marathon again in 2012.
Moraghan - how many half marathons would you consider it possible to race/peak for in a year? I know 2 marathons a year is generally accepted, does this mean 3 or 4 for the half? Would they be equally spread apart, so one every 3 or 4 months, or would you see gains from being relatively close together to piggyback on any improvement?
Sue - I aiming for sub 3:45.
I would say on your year plan - if you think the shorter distance times can be squeezed some more then go for it - sub 70 would be fantastic! You'll have to accept if you do train up that your shorter distance pbs may remain in place because the volume of miles in the legs may leave you unfresh for pb attempts.
Kaysdee - I think that pacing looks sensible - I'm aiming for around 1:50 for the first half...and then to tail off a touch in the second or if I can keep going then thats great - I havent sufferred tail off in training runs but you never know.
I like your negative split pacing, but pacing on my first mara was nonexistant so I am expecting a tail off.
I know you're asking Moraghan but my thoughts are if you run halfs too close together it may not affect the times, but will affect the times post both of those races - I would never race more than 2 a year (in the broader scope of my race year). 10 milers you can get away with, but halfs are high effort for long distance and take a lot out of you...
On my first marathon I was on pace until 21 miles (furthest LSR 22 miles) and classically trailed off from there. Dramatically, like a minute a mile slower in the last 5. That was off the back off 40 miles a week though, peaking at 55 or something and as mentioned every LSR was tough.
This time all of my runs have been comfortable and I did one 20 miler (amongst others, longest run an inadvertent 24 miler) at 8.32 pace and felt absolutely fine after it, so think I can just about maintain pace now, or if it does drop off it won't be as dramatic - I say that now
.
If I force myself to start slower, I won't be tempted to try something stupid like sub 3.30 and it would be really interesting for me personally to see what negative split as a deliberate strategy feels like, as I sometimes struggle to reign it in at the start of races. The marathon is too far of a race to get wrong at the start.
My wobble in a marathon tends to come at around 18 miles.
There is so much still to learn. When I first started racing I just entered anything that I liked the look of (kind of still do
). Beyond the Brass Monkey in 2009, all other halfs were off the back of marathon training until I did more specific half training between Loch Ness mara (Oct) and Brass Monkey again in 2010, so have never been what I would consider fresh.
Oct 08 - GNR 1:58:28
Oct 08 - Great Cumbrian Run 1:54:34
Jan 09 - BM 1:50:16
Feb 09 - Great North West 1:51:44 (windy day, hence worried about 2 laps on Sunday!)
Apr 09 - Redcar half 1:43:15 (significant drop I think down to marathon mileage)
Then took a bit of a break on half's and after Edinburgh did lots of 10k's and back into marathon training for Loch Ness.
Aug 09 - Newark 1:43:50 (very hot day)
Oct 09 - Jedburgh 1:49:28 - almost forgot that one. You can see that seriously bit me on the backside. Far too close to Loch Ness and not 100% recovered from injury either.
Jan 10 - BM 1:41:11
Whilst I did pb in almost all of them, I feel most of that was due to the natural improvement as a novice to a more experienced runner and the jump in mileage for marathons. I realise I'm still a relative beginner though.
In terms of pb courses I would rate the following as serious contenders for next year.
January - Brass Monkey - if you can get in.
April (?) usually, is June this year - Redcar.
Both very flat.
Not really much experience of others, but based on events already done
August - Newark, mainly flat, hill at 11 miles, but downhill to finish.
October - Jedburgh probably. Bit undulating, but out and back course so gains and losses.
10 milers
February - Snake Lane (have heard very fast, sells out quickly)
November - Thirsk
Don't really know of any other local ones.
Two marathons is generally regarded as the sensible limit - one of the main reasons being that it tests your body's resources so thoroughly and another reason that the taper is usually significant. You also can't really race them as part of your marathon preparation. A half is a bloody hard race but you're not likely to be running out of glycogen or hitting the wall so, in theory, a well trained runner, could start training hard again pretty soon and also include them in their prep cycles..
How many half marathons do I consider possible to race / peak for in a year? For me they are two different questions. You could probably race one every 2 or 3 weeks throughout the year and, if you could handle the mental burnout, be okay.
Peaking for races is totally different. A peak for me means you have trained through a series of structured and progressive phases which build on each other and are capped with a taper, reduced mileage, race specific sessions and finally (in the case of half marathons) one or two races. A peak can probably last about 4 weeks before your aerobic fitness begins to erode through the reduction in training. A proper cycle takes about 6 months, so I think a good way to approach a serious half marathon is to have 2 full training cycles in a year with two peak periods with 2 races in each.
Every time you peak in a year you dilute the depth, length and thoroughness of the preparation phases so the peak you will achieve will be lower. For some this is an acceptable compromise - it's all down to personality. I am running the middle distances this year and am going for a peak period of about 5 - 8 weeks in summer. I'm just finishing base training which was 27 weeks long and haven't sniffed racing at distances that I'm any good at. It's been a big relief to finish and couldn't have taken much more but this base of fitness gives me the luxury of being able to really intensify my training in the hope of a high peak. What I could have done is split my season in two and peaked for the indoor season and then peaked again in summer - more fun, lower ultimate performance probably.
P.s. If you have a fairly bad cold by the end of the week, what are you trying to achieve by doing the race? Everyone would understand if you gave it a miss, and you would know it was the right thing to do!
Nag, nag, nag......
I think you will naturally PB at shorter distances off marathon training if you are increasing mileage but this will plateau at some point and any further PB will only come from half or 10k specific training. This was demonstrated for me in 2007 when during a very good run up to London, I only managed a 10 second PB at Wilmslow half. A month after the marathon with mostly rest and a bit of half marathon specific speed training, I knocked 2 minutes off that time on a slower course (Sheffield).
Sue - It is a difficult decision to make and one, I fear that I may have missed the boat on, as I fear my age may now be prohibitive to ever going under 1:30. I just love running marathons (and lots of them) too much. I am certain that with distance specific schedules that you will definitely nail those PBs but it is all about deciding what your priority is.
Kaysdee - I like your idea of using Blackpool as a practice run to try out your pacing. I have set out with good intentions in all my marathons regarding negative splits but haven't run one yet! The problem is that you don't know you are going to run a positive split until it is all too late and you've already screwed the pacing.
I know
. Another reason I'm never fundraising again. I feel ok now, but if it does get worse, I won't do it. Usually I book my hotels on non-refundable saver rates, but this one is flexible and the organiser has said I can defer so I have until mid day on Saturday to cancel it all.
If I'm understanding correctly (talking about half marathons), you're saying to pick 2 key races in the year to peak at, ideally 6 months apart, but because of the progressive build up of a schedule, you can get away with racing another on the way to that peak - so in theory 4 half's a year? Two "real" attempts and two others at some point along the way?
Or do you mean 2 half marathons within each potential peak 4 weeks of aerobic fitness of each 6 month build up? I think I could contain myself enough to be happy with 4
.
God, it's a good job I'm never going to be an elite. It must take discipline of epic proportions, especially on a 4 or 8 year Olympic peak.
So, how would other distances fit in if you also wanted to improve 5/10k, 10 mile? Are they built into the schedule almost like time trials in the way you are recommended to race a half x weeks before a marathon to determine what your target race pace will be? If it is a 6 month schedule, assuming training paces are at last known proven pb paces at the start, how do you judge what you are going to be capable of at the end, ie wouldn't the training paces 4 months down the line be too easy by then? Is it by racing other distances at key stages within that build up and re-evaluating paces?
This is extremely fascinating!
By the way, I don't think I've formally said thank you yet. I have no doubt you are going to prove invaluable and I'm so looking forward to getting started for real
.
CG - I usually know the point in a race that I've lost it and it is really hard for me to then not become completely negative. Not necessarily referring to negative split, could be when aiming for a pb or just completing it full stop. I do however love the races where everything clicks and everything is on your side and you finish feeling incredible!
Kaysdee - if you know that you are losing your head during a race it might help to switch your focus. Concentrate on good form until the end or just keeping pace for another mile or not allowing the guy in front to get further away etc or keep everything relaxed etc. Or maybe you just race too much!!! You have already done more halves than me!
(I probably haven't raced enough this year!)
Curly - is it just VLM that have changed the GFA then?
CG - whenever you used to post on sub 3.15 (which is more like sub3 at the moment!) you always seemed to enjoy the long, off road runs so much and endure the fast stuff. I know where your heart lies. I also take your point about age, I am 38 remember and a part of me is thinking I ought to concentrate on speed while I still can! The other part of me enjoys marathons (and beyond!)
Yep, I need to work out my priorities. Valid point too about training with the kids off in summer, it is easier to fit in the volume in some respects than the sessions. I can't honestly see me doing mile reps at 6am but I could probably pootle about for an hour.
Other races which spring to mind are Wistow 10 in October (Selby area) the GER in October (Peterborough) St Annes 10 in March. All are flat as pancakes. Flat 10ks are Abbey Dash in November and Dewsbury 10k in Feb.
Snake Lane is a super race, beautifully organised but not pancake flat. Bit twisty with a couple of minor climbs and can be windy too. You get a great mug and a mars bar though!
And the Brass Monkey is absolutely my favourite race ever! It just sells out in 2 days thats all!
kaysdee
Peaking isn't all or nothing - meaning it's not the only time you'll run well. All it is really doing is building up all the facets of fitness in progressive fashion and then having the confidence to back off when racing time comes. Training entails a continual breakdown and recovery cycle - each time you recover you, in theory, recover to a slightly higher level of fitness. So, in theory (although it depends on the nature of the schedule), you will never race to your best during heavy training cycles when you're in the breakdown recovery cycle. That doesn't mean you won't race well, it just means if you're training properly it will affect your racing. Similarly your racing will impact your ability to train - unless it's planned in such a way that it complements the racing.
If you look at your 2010 schedule and sum all the recovery and taper weeks - these are all weeks where you are not really building your fitness. The taper is only enhancing your chances in that particular race - not, in itself, developing your future fitness because it involves lost training. Run 4 marathons and an ultra in a year and you have already built in about 20 weeks where you aren't training optimally - that's over a third of the year before accounting for injury and 'life'.
In my view there's also a mental cost to racing. If you go on holiday 52 times a year soon it doesn't become special and it becomes a chore. It will also wear you out.
You can choose not to periodise or peak and race well all year and improve your times as you do so. Just realise the consequences of racing too often. A phased schedule will develop rounded fitness - some of which specifically helps performance at a distance. So, if training for a 10k, you may have a vo2 max period you'll run very close to that season's capability in a 5k. It will complement the vo2 max training to race the 5k also - both of which ultimately help your 10k.
With regards to the paces:
Your pace will be continually adjusted. Usually as a result of races as you say - but also through training it becomes obvious, if you are documenting workouts properly, where your fitness is improving. As I get to know you, I can give you workouts that I expect to be really taxing based on past workouts - if they aren't it's time to change your training paces.
Kaysdee - hope you're feeling better today!
Sue C - yeah its 3:50 now for VLM, but if its a good day I'd love to qualify for Boston (sub 3:40 or threabouts)...
I did Dewsbury 10k this year - great race - slightly uphill on the way out and downhill on the way back
Re: training pace adjustment - thats something I really struggle with over the course of the plan - I have bands and try to move towards the upper end of them butsometimes you do catch yourself falling back into old paces that are too easy because you are used to running at that pace (too easy for a tempo for example)...anyone else struggle with this?
Pace would be the thing I am least likely to run to, although others train in this way. And I run to time rather than distance. Firstly I run to effort and secondly to Heart Rate. I think pace would either limit me or pressure me too much. If I ran a 6 mile flat route then my pace for a general/easy run would be approx. 8.20mm. If I ran a 6 mile hilly route then my pace is more likely to be 8.35mm for the same effort.
Similarly, my speed work is done on a variety of surfaces. Clearly running round the track will produce a 'better' result than over an undulating road route for say, a tempo run. The effort again will have been the same.
I wouldn't get too worried about pace!
Lots to think about then.
Kids have gone to my mam's for a planned visit so have got a few hours peace. I suppose that means I should be doing some ironing or something, but what the heck. I'm assuming that doing any more running is immaterial at this point so not going out today. Loaded up on Vit C and Beechams now. Probably doesn't make the slightest bit of difference, but I never usually take anything so we'll see. Not feeling too bad, just slightly headachy and sniffly, thankfully nothing on my chest.
I think Dewsbury was on the same day as the Trafford 10k - which was snowed off - so will check the Trafford course in September, supposed to be speedy. They all bloody say fast and flat though
. That's another silly reason why I do different races, to find out which are going to be the best. There are certain ones I did last year that I really hated so if it does come to limiting my racing next year, it allows me to know which ones to choose.
Re: pacing, I think it can sometimes just depend on your frame of mind on the day. When I was using a half marathon schedule, albeit only 12 weeks and from RW, for some of the sessions I thought "I can't do that pace", but it was actually really manageable. I think that doubt comes from making a fair amount of progress relatively quickly and thinking about my old paces. I am a bit of a slave to my watch though
, however I did one MP run a few weeks ago where I couldn't see a thing and hadn't worked the light out (OH got me a new 310XT for the battery life for the ultra) so I ran what I figured was around 8.05 and it was actually averaged 7.53 so that was nice. I do the odd easy run where I cover my watch and afterwards it's usually slower than I think I'm going - maybe that says something!
If I'm concentrating on slowing down, my easy pace tends to be around 8.40/5, but if I just run at what feels like a natural pace it will likely be 8.20, although it does feel slightly pushed. There are other times when I'm hovering nearer to 9mm and thinking it feels like hard work! I ran my last two LSR's with a clubmate at a far slower pace than I'd usually do and have to say they felt like nothing, so maybe there is something to slowing down... which is another consideration I am going to have to face for the ultra. I definitely can't start that at some crazy pace and will probably have to practice running between 9.30 - 10, or even slower, which just feels alien.
I don't have a track that I know of near me, so I do all my runs on the road, or the (very) occasional run through a country park on a cinder/gravelly surface. I've yet to find a perfect route for a tempo, so there is almost always some undulation.
I do have a HRM which I use now and then. I never adjust my run by what it says, I just look at the data afterwards. I'm a tricky person when it comes to heart rate though. I can be feeling absolutely fine and the run really will be genuinely easy, yet my HR can be at something like 85%. It has always read high for effort and my resting HR seems to be high too (taken manually). I've tried it on my 405 and 310 and it's the same pattern, so I think it's just me
Just looked at Fetch out of interest re: paces. Gives the following - the average is the average of every session for the month, so easy, races, LSR, etc combined.
Jan 09 - 8.54
Jan 10 - 8.28
Feb 09 - 8.58
Feb 10 - 8.35
Mar 09 - 9.08
Mar 10 - 8.46
Similar drop in March for both years, I'd guess down to the bulk of the LSR's done in this month.
Wow, that's a lot of really, really useful stuff to take in.
Kaysdee: I hope you can shake that nasty cold. It's good you have a plan B and can opt out if you have to.
Sue: not an easy decision. Especially when kids are involved. You know what works best for you in terms of available time and what training can be done.
Negative splits are a very rare breed. I have yet to accomplish one in a marathon. I managed one during my recent half and I do hope that the congestion at the VLM start will simply prevent any foolish notions at the start. Fingers crossed. I agree, it's very hard to keep going once you know any chance of running a decent time has just gone out of the window.
Moraghan: I will definitely take your advice on board and if I attempt a serious half marathon PB (so far, my halfs or is it halves?) were in the run up to a marathon, off of no taper.
CG's post made me think, though. I may be too old to get anywhere near 1:30
Sue, your kids are a little older, aren't they?
Please reassure me that the CONSTANT fighting and bickering does peter out at some point. Dear me, why can't they just play nicely for 5 minutes?! Whoever invented school holidays anyway
.
Chick, dare I ask how old you are?
kaysdee - yes, a little older at 10 and nearly 9. One of each. They are capable of being very good friends but they do not always choose to be! But overall, much much easier - promise! Tonight will be very easy because my childminder took them on a 3 hour walk with the dog this afternoon so they are laid in front of the TV chilling at present!
How many marafuns have you done Chickadee?
I don't particularly fit into any HR ranges either. I don't care. I know exactly what HR I should be seeing at any given effort. It takes a while to know all this but it is also a very individual thing too. Lot of slow, easy running helps bring overall effort/pace down and sometimes using the HRM helps with this. Also for recovery efforts, it is a useful way to ensure you do actually run at an easy enough effort to aid recovery.
A small speed session today, 10 mins easy warm up then 15 mins at MP (7.36mm) then 4 x 3 mins at tempo (6.15 - 6.25mm) Beginning to enjoy the taper!
I agree with Sue regarding heart rate. I know that my heart rate in a marathon averages out at 160 regardless of pace so if it is over that in the first few miles then I will need to ease off. Are you going for a sub 3:15 at Lochaber then, Sue?
Chickadee - Didn't mean to put you off but I'm afraid your speed over the shorter distances does diminish with age. Our club puts out a lot of teams for our local 3 mile road relay and the youngsters beat us hands down although they can't touch us veterans when it comes to the marathon distance.
10 miles at MP at 6 am which I had to run by feel as it was too dark to see my pace but was happy with 8:20 on a hilly route.
So I have a way to go yet. Mine are 6, 4 and 3. And people ask why I enjoy running so much!
When is Lochaber? Is it next weekend?
I'm intending to explore more HR/base training stuff after I do Abingdon. I did do an experiment once last year to run at 75% max HR and I had to run at 10mm+
to stay under.
6am? That's one thing I can't do. I'm so not a morning person! As my husband and kids would tell you, lol.
I never worn a HRM - I take my pulse after a run and it scares me how low it is (straight away although I'm aware there will be a tail off)...I tend to run to PE, except in races where I run to PE + pace by mile markers (since they are often out PE is a good cross check!)...
10 hilly miles @ MP jeez CG thats a toughie for 6am!
With Mr CG working late then 6 in the morning is often my only option and you do get used to it (and even enjoy it!)
Kaysdee - I work with children (and have a 5 year old of my own) and I swear that running keeps me sane. It's the only time I get where there isn't somebody demanding my time and attention.
Kaysdee: of course you can
no big secret. I think I even wrote it in that rather waffly intro post a few days ago. I'm 41. So, no spring chick anymore 
Sue: I've done 4 so far but was only happy with one of them.
CG: Not put off at all. Quite the opposite, I found your input very helpful. After all, I've got to be realistic and setting myself fantasy targets won't help at all. I'm just going to work on my speed and if I hit a plateau then it's probably time to revise goals and focus on marathons and ultras going forward. Or think about age-grading. That may be my saviour.
Funny thing, that HR stuff. Mine is pretty much in line with your average Jane's.
I like early morning runs too, CG. In fact, I have to get my training out of the way before the work day begins as I work crap irregular hours. Come evening I'm cream-crackered and can't be bothered to train. Sometimes I am tempted to smash the alarm clock to pieces but you get used to it after a while.
I suppose I don't really have an incentive to want to get up as come September all 3 will be in school/nursery in the morning (Ben currently has an afternoon place which is a pain), so will just run from there.
I know I could compromise and try some early nights here and there, I go to bed far too late, but it's just because I need the peace!
Well, I think theoretically there are still years worth of pb's to come.
I've just made some flapjacks with seeds and nuts to take to Blackpool with me. It could be that many of my races are ruined because the key 24 hours for nutrition is usually when I'm on the road and don't eat or drink much. At least these will keep me going. I'm having to fight the kids off them though!
Feeling much better today, just really in my nose now, but I'm going to give the menthol steam thing a shot later.