Moraghan Training - Stevie G

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  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    A guy at work keeps raving about his mate who did a 3:30 marathon. And suggests that I need to do one to prove i could beat that time.image

    Sometimes it's worth keeping the running chat to those who do it isn't it!

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    SG, There's a guy up my road; who should have been born with a chimney, who's like that. If even I'm daft enough to broach a subject I can almost guarantee that he's going to come out with, 'I've a mate who's.....etc. There's a mate who's done a marathon of course.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    I covered a marathon in training once. Really hot day, drinks and lolly breaks, and even at 3:30 pace I can still remember that feeling utterly drained of any energy and needing food urgently feeling.

    That satisfied any need to ever do a marathon!

  • Stevie seeStevie see ✭✭✭

    I'm a 7.5 foot too!

    RE the marathon I get the bug every year around April then my brain kicks in and tells me to stop being so silly!

  • TippTopTippTop ✭✭✭

    I hope you don't mind me sticking my nose in, but I saw some of the Lydiard comments and as it's one of my favourite subjects, and what my training is based on (plus I was also lucky enough to be trained for a bit by Barry Magee - one of the original Lydiard boys) I had to respond image

    RicF - the 100mpw wasn't accumulated as part of his day job, it was separate to any ground he may have covered doing that, and that oft-repeated quote of 100mpw only relates to the 'marathon conditioning', aka base, phase . It also didn't include warm ups, cool downs and the secondary jogs. And slow is a relative term, as their 'slow' long runs would typically be less than MP + 60s.
    We'll also have to disagree that "everyone who posts on this thread has a deeper understanding of the training process than Lydiard ever did" - in my opinion, if you understood Lydiardism you wouldn't say that. Even the stuff that Renato Canova currently does with the Kenyans, which is very in vogue for obvious reasons, is very heavily rooted in Lydiard's philosophy, as, in turn, Lydiard's training was also heavily influenced by coaches who had preceded him.

    PMJ - science generally has pretty much validated what Lydiard intuitively worked out, rather than disproved it.

    I'm not saying by any manner of means that Lydiardism is the be-all and end-all, but, in my book, it's a damn good starting place.

    I'm also, most definitely, not saying that you should do something just because a schedule says so (anything but), so if your approach of stopping and stretching, etc, works for you RicF, then it's obviously better for you, but not what Lydiardism is about. I, also, found that to simply blindly follow the base schedule was too much for me (more to do with the relative paces and structure than simply the overall volume), so have also adjusted accordingly this time around.

    The phases that all followed the base phase have had much less publicity, but it's all part of the process. One part is useless without the others.

    I can post a bit more (particularly on the base phase) if anybody is interested.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    ZaTTU, we always welcome "Thread heroes" (some troll coined that) from the sub 3hour thread....feel free to post as much as you like.

    If you want to post how you've based your training on Lydiards ideas, and talk some times achieved, that'll break up some of my general waffle too!

  • TippTopTippTop ✭✭✭

    lol Stevie. I'm sure the combination of the two of us will have Mr diggler on here before longimage

    Just tell me to shut up when I've posted enough, but I'll try be concise (ish)image

  • DeanR7DeanR7 ✭✭✭

    im going to get this in nice and early,  who was Lydiard ? And what did what was his big thing? I havent read a running book (other than racing weight). image

  • TippTopTippTop ✭✭✭

    Ok, as I've got a few minutes spare, and for want of a better phrase, Lydiard 101.......

    The idea was that the whole build-up to your 'most important race' would be divided into several phases. Chronologically, these are:
    1) Marathon Conditioning (aka Base)
    2) Hills
    3) Anaerobic
    4) Co-ordination and freshening up (tapering).

    The first phase is the one that got all the attention because of the '100mpw' quote. In reality, as mentioned to RicF above, the mileage in this phase was, ideally, much more.

    The aim of this phase was simply to improve your aerobic condition. The logic is that the stronger your aerobic condition the better you can absorb the anaerobic work required to get into race shape (bear in mind that the range of Lydiard's original runners went from 800m with Peter Snell, up to the marathon with Magee, Puckett and Bailie, with everything in between (probably most notably Halberg over 5km).

    The typical marathon conditioning phase, which they all done (incl Snell, as an 800m/mile racer) was along these lines:

    Monday: 10m @ 1/2 effort (hilly)
    Tuesday: 15m @ 1/4 effort
    Wednesday: 12m fartlek
    Thursday: 18m @ 1/4 effort
    Friday: 10m @ 3/4 effort
    Saturday: 22m @ 1/4 effort
    Sunday: 15m @ 1/4 effort

    Of that, the Monday, Wednesday and Friday efforts would have had a warm-up and cool-down of 2-3m making each of the 10m efforts 14-16m and the fartlek 16-18m.
    Throw in morning jogs Monday-Saturday of up to 8m and you're obviously looking at huge mileage.

    In terms of paces, Barry told me that the 22m @ 1/4 effort (on a hilly route) would come in about 2:30 (6:49) when they started back, and eventually come down to about 2:15 (6:08). To put it in context, Barry's pb was 2:17:19 (5:14) - bear in mind this was the early 60s and that was world class back then.

    The 1/2 effort would have started at about 65mins and ended up about 58mins, occasionally maybe slightly quicker (also bear in mind the preference was for this to be done over a hilly route). A good range for this was essentially c(urrent)MP + 20-35s.

    The 3/4 effort was preferably done over a flat route and would have started out around 60mins and eventually worked down to around 54mins (occasionally in the 52-53min range). Again, a good range for this was essentially cMP + 0-10s.

    Throughout all the phases Lydiard stressed the need to go on feel and to listen to your body. Generally he said it was better to err on the easier side than to overcook it. Essentially "train, don't strain".

    One of the things that caused me issues with this phase was the lack of any faster running (strides) to break up the monotony. Though he was sometimes quoted as prescribing strides during this phase, apparently he typically didn't (certainly when I was being trained by Barry he didn't). It meant that your main runs (if you had a 3m warm-up and cool-down) were: 16, 15, 18, 18, 16, 22, 15, so as you can see there is a narrow range of distances, plus there was also a reasonably narrow range of paces too.

  • TippTopTippTop ✭✭✭

    Dean - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Lydiard

    The hill phase originally consisted of 3 days of hill work, 3 days working on leg speed and an easy long run.

    The hill work was typically done on a 2m circuit - 1/2m uphill, 1/2m flat, 1/2m downhill and 1/2m flat. The idea here was to build leg strength. speed and ankle flexibility by bounding uphill, jogging across the top, striding out downhill, and then doing some windsprints/strides (of 50-400m) along the bottom.

    The leg speed days involved 10 reps of 120-150m with a 3min jog in between.

    When I was being trained by Barry, out of necessity, we went from the base phase I had done, to an anaerobic phase, so I've as yet to do a hill phase.

    Over time this became watered down in Lydiard's later books as a lot of people couldn't handle the hill phase in it's original form. I suspect that I am not physically up to it either, so am doing a modified hill phase for my Berlin prep, but will hopefully work towards the original in future cycles.

  • TippTopTippTop ✭✭✭

    I'll try post some more later, but the base phase really is the most important one. Lydiard always maintained that once you finished this phase your maximum performance level was set. Barry reckoned that you could run the base phase indefinitely and pb just on that work.

    Certainly, on my modified version of it I ran a 10k pb (admittedly it was a soft pb as I don't really race them, but still) after just 8 weeks back training.

  • Sorry to just wander in here, I've been lurking, but was just reading these interesting posts on Lydiard, and wondered what time frame they deal with? How long should each phase be, and how long should be spent building up to the massive millages- i think I'd be injured pretty soon if I stepped up to those volumes,

  • Stevie seeStevie see ✭✭✭

    This makes interesting reading as from November I'm going to periodise my training and try to become a bit more structured. It would be good to see time periods for each phase. The idea is to use the winter as a base with 4-7 XC races and lots of hill training. I'm going to be pecking people's head about this around October!

    I've read 'Road racing for serious runners' by Pfitzinger which is good reading but it very much bases it's ideas on distance specific training. Which is more looks to be more effective but I'll never go that way, as it's a 5k one week a half the next with me image

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    Well I'm in no position to argue with an authority on Lydiard. But some things stick in the mind to off-load in idle moments and that was one of them. The source came from some article written at least 20 years ago. I suspect a hint of coaching envy from the author when he claimed that for every one of Lydiards successes there were plenty of failures simply because they couldn't handle the base phase.

    Training methods do change. Almost a fashion to some extents. How about this gem from 1972, in a book by Watts, Wilson and Horwill. 'I convinced 'X' of the value of this scale of training in the Autumn of 1968, but it took him six months before he was able to handle 100 miles a week regularly and another year before he could cope with 180 miles a week!

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    a full 6 months to get up to a mere 100miles a week? That's pathetic.

    Incidentally, i know a runner who often does 100+ miles a week. Only problem is he then has spells where he does jack sh!t. I always know which part of the boom and bust he's on as he'll pipe up with "that's not a long run" when i say i've done a 10miler or something.

  • Stevie seeStevie see ✭✭✭

    100 miles a week? No thanks. The words 'deminishing returns' spring to mind.

    Just got back from my 5k. Short of it is I ran 17:59, the course is nice and flat but it is a 2 lapper with a very slow 300m section on a narrow mud track. First lap everybody was slipping, 2nd lap there was a queue of about 10 blokes all with no energy to push on through the mud. This section cost me 10 seconds on each K I did them.

    But still... beat other faster rivals and I did do a beast of a session on Tuesday. 5:47 min miles too is a nice 'training session' too. This 17:20 5k target is going to take some doing though! image

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Stevie, not a bad runout. But 5k is certainly a distance where there's no scope for losing speed, whether through your own racing, or through the likes of mud, grass, hills etc.

    I think we both need a flat road course. I'm not convinced we have any down our way...but you might be luckier up north.

    What's your 5k at the moment? I thought 17.20 sounded a sharp target, but i have to admit I'm not sure where you are currently?

  • Stevie seeStevie see ✭✭✭

    We are blessed with a lot of quick 5ks up here. My current best is 17:46 on a very slow course. Guys I've been beating over every distance consistently by 20+ seconds have been doing 17:25 to 17:30 this year. I can definitely get close to 17:30 if not scrape under.

    Anyway I've got another next week! (I'm going to be saying that for a while!)

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    That sounds pretty promising right there! Not everyone likes to go off relative performances to others, but they make up one of my key disclaimers image

      Chatting with Bus after our 5k on Monday, by rights, off other times "the man" on McMillan reckons i should be breaking 17 and he should be breaking 17.30

    2 things stall that... one the courses down here, and 2) the suspicion that McMillan calculations come out a little cheeky the shorter the distances.

    If you can go sub 17.30, then you should be coming close or breaking 36 for 10k, based on my non scientific x2 +1min calculation!

    There's a guy from my club, I noticed was on 18:40, and then suddenly did an 18:10 at a course that's a 2 lapper on mostly grass...so I'd imagine he has a sub 18 in him.

    It really is all about course and competition, if you get both you could be well away.

    ps does anyone know a quick southern 5k...opening this up to the floor....i know there's a "last friday of month" on in London..but a little awkward being Friday lunchtime...in London! Otherwise it might have to be a park run somewhere road, and flat....Bus....Phil...do you fancy a road trip to one when we can locate it?

    ps Seb..are you sniffing around....i know you race down into the Midlands...any 5ks in that neck of the woods worth doing?

  •  hehe always reading not always posting...

    nice run SS, good for a weekday blast.

    Not really many fast road 5k's up here Im afraid, the one I did last year has a large hill in. Got my eye on Liecester city 5k summer series, not been before, sounds like a fast course but the next one is Thursday! 28th June.Its on every couple of weeks or month I think. Will have to get up there one time. Not exactly your neck on the woods though.

    Went down my clubs track session for the first time in a month tonight and ran a speed session! ouch. 4 sets of 2 300m reps, 100 walk/jog recovery and 800 jog between sets. 48,49,  45,46,  46,46,  48,46. bit faster than im used to but had a group to run which is more fun than all the solo running.

  • Eh, hello, Hackney Marshes parkrun is very flat...out and back course round the tarmac path that surrounds it - showers, cafe, lots of parking...

    Rarely more than about 50 or 60 people as well.Course record is under 15min.

    image

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Ah quality...i knew the "Candy Man" routine would draw you out...works for other thread members!

    I think the best bet down here is a string of 3 or 4 races at Dorney Lake in Windsor...they cost about £22 though, and the quality is ...a bit dodgy...ie if the likes of us turned up we could find we either win the race by miles, or could come 3rd, miles off 2nd and miles off 4th...ie not in a race.

    Also they're Jan to March...so gone for this year!

  • DarolaDarola ✭✭✭

    Steve G - In the midlands Cannon Hill is pretty quick. Flat and tarmac paths. Has a couple of tight turns at around 3.5 k but other wise has nothing to slow you down (if you look on the satelitte pic the turns are on the loop, at the end of the out and back on the second lap).

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Sheeyut...welcome pal...that sounds promising...apart from the small field...that course record is very fast...think the record is 14 dead? Maybe Craig Mottram? Time definite, maybe name made up image

    Darola...thanks..i'll have a look at it...a Birmingham park run...that could be an interesting option on route to a footy game up north one weekend...

  • Stevie seeStevie see ✭✭✭

    Yeah I also feel that McMillan is a little 'asprirational' the shorter the distance. I'm looking to go sub 17:30 to give me an indication I can go sub 36 over 10k. But McMillan goes backward and says that 35:59 is 17:19 image Cheeky sod!

    Talking of parkrun... northern boys I heard there is talk of a Delamere forest one soon! image

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Definitely Stevie, as my half and 10milers have fallen, I've never matched the alleged 5k and 10k equivalents.

    Best get some sleep, it;s the classic 6m MP session tomorrow...i must have done it 20 times, but even now i have a little bit of...will it go to pace!

  • Zattu, one thing is what comes first, the distance or speed. To be honest, if I could do 10 miles in the mid 50s in training I would happily take on 100 miles a week. I suspect that the sort of people who can do those tiems can do those distances, and it isn;t necessariyl good for us normal people.

    SG, fast 5k may have to be Battersea, look at
     http://uk.srichinmoyraces.org/races/london/
    races 18th June and 2nd July. Monday evenings, Dt2 territory.

    Sunday morign weather looks bad, may not be there, but I'll text you for sure closer either way,

  • DeanR7DeanR7 ✭✭✭

    whilst i dont put much faith in things like WAVA and mcmillan calculators. Im getting it the other way, the longer distances are in need to improving to get alignment.  My 5k time means my 10k PB is approx 90secs too slow and the HM PB is nearly 3mins too slow. 

    good race SS - also noticed that Big Stu is doing this series and his times are down on christleton by 20-30 secs...is that due to the course ?

  • @SG - thanks, nice to be here but shall be shuttling off back to lurking v shortly...image

    Course record held by Paul Martelletti in 14:51.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Phil, looks a classic 5k type field, my kind of times threatening the top 10, yet top positions with the mid 15s.As per the 5k myself and Bus did though, the position would almost be an after thought

    Monday evening is awkward though, but will weigh up all the evidence, also from you Sheeyut.

    Did notice DT2 is actually in one of the results as a 16.01!

    Dean, you're pretty fresh to racing, so it's inevitable you'll temporarily have major differences across your times. Making a breakthrough, and equalising it across the range is one of the joys, even if when you get a fair few years in, you're taking mere buttons off your 5k!

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