Howdy, Stranger!
Categories
Options
SuperSix Project
The materials in this website are in no way intended to replace the professional medical care, advice, diagnosis or treatment of a doctor, qualified personal trainer, therapist, dietitian or nutritionist Runners's World, Part of the Hearst UK well-being network © Copyright 2017
Comments
Firstly, RW, Lucozade etc do not have to apologise for their commercial interest in the project. They have not committed a sin, they are businesses. They have invested money and time into the super six, inspired a lot of people along the way and should be credited for what they have done.
It's a fact that TV and magazines generate revenue with 'reality events'
We can take the moral high ground and try and dissociate ourselves from such things but in my view that would be concealing the truth, we have a fascination for such things and if businesses exploit this character trait of the masses, once again, why blame them.
I believe the goal's set for the super six were done in good faith. The marathon is a tough event. There are many things that can go wrong. Missing the target does not equate to failure! Professional athletes frequently miss their target times. Dealing with disappointment is an attribute that fortifies the athlete. If it's good enough for the best, it's good enough for me.
Take heart Super Six, you are winners in my eye!
I've just found this thread and have read most of it, but apoliogies if I've missed a point already made.
Like others, I started reading the forums when Hilly was first being coached, and I learned a lot from MGs approach. ie having the input of a top coach. As others have said, this is completely lost in the way the SSX project has gone this year and last.
My suggestion is to make it a clear competition between the coaches. Give each one 3or 4 guinea pigs, with similar background and aspirations (to allow for any one having injuries etc). Then let the coaches produce schedules to their individual beliefs, so one would advocate high mileage, as many 20ml runs as poss etc, another might genuinely believe that a marathon target could be acheived on 3 mls a week. or one who favours lots of speedwork.
(Yes I know this isn't quite what RW wants, and more interesting for a coaching mag/forum !)
Ok, I shall comment as I did the SSX last year and didn't hit my target on the day. Yes, I was gutted, floored actually as I had managed a great campaign. I did want to do everybody proud and I dreaded writing that post telling everyone my time (a worst by some way!) It took me months to get over. My reaction to this one bad race does seem out of proportion to other bad races but I haven't over analysed this tbh so I don't know whether this was the SSX thing or not.
I am still not sure I needed any support from RW in this regard though, it didn't really cross my mind. I put the pressure on myself I guess. But, yes there is a lot of pressure, self imposed or not.
So I guess I can have issues with the schedule and the best use of the expertise of the coaches but not with this aspect. After reflection.
The only thing I might mention was the photographer being around and being videoed/interviewed on race morning. That did make me nervous and I am not sure the material gained there was useful/published widely. Just a small point that though.
Some very interesting posts - it's taken this thread along a whole other line of thought which I had not considered originally. Thanks to MM for raising it initially and SueC for giving the insight from a former SSXer. I'm a bit puzzled why 2 super sixers are commenting that they will not yet comment on the debate when I thought part of the selection process was the willingness to share and engage online. It does not add anything to come on and say you're not saying anything. If you have a view (which you obviously do) then share it so we can learn from your experience as we have from MM, Andy and SueC.
The pressure of being part of the SSXers. This seems to come from the external commitments - the media expectations. Hilly did not have this on the original Hard Training threads TmR refers to as it was all about the training, not the gimmicks. Yes she did make her target on the race she was going for, but had she had a bad one on the day, like MM (virus), JBFAR (slightly undertrained IMHO) then she could have turned round and said `not my day today, Mike - can I give it a go in 6 weeks time at xx'?
As this is VLM / Garmin / Lucozade / Rodale driven that is not an option for these guys. MM for one would be a good shoe in for a 3:05 in 5 weeks time without a virus and in a lower pressure race (Chester etc). That for me would make an interesting sequel to the story in that the training worked for him but that short term prep / virus can have a devastating effect on the day, but without destroying the underlying fitness. But then again, is that the aim of the project?
Not everybody would need the psychological support post race but others will. It should be available to those who need it - just like everyone who goes through a stressful situation reacts in different ways - 2 SSXers have made interesting contributions on here, 2 have said they don't want to comment and one has not posted since her race report and to answer one question. Maybe some more thorough pre-screening of the people chosen. In previous years I think we did not get to vote - it was chosen by RW after considering those who had good records of posting and who were well respected by their forum peers.
EP - nice post
I'd rather people sponsor me because they value the cause I am supporting rather than the event I am taking part in, but then I guess much of the world does not think along the same lines as me
It sounds like you could have done with some sports psychology to help you define success and failure in your terms before the race rather than trying to come to terms with it in the middle of VLM. I hope your experience gives RW food for thought as to how to improve their package for the benefit of the runners (just as they need to think about the nature of the schedules for a woman going for sub3) before next year.
The package needs to be individualising to take into account training and psychological needs - a one size fit all approach has patently not met the needs of some of you this year. It's far removed from the hype that Runnerman copied and pasted about `tried and tested' and impying it's a once in a lifetime opportunity.
I've not been a `slower runner' so I don't know what level of support you get, but I have always been very impressed with the level of support for the pace I've run there. I've also followed the race as a supporter / spectator 3 times. It's not the `people of London' but the people IN London. Many thousands of club runners / parents / spouses etc make the trip down (or even up) to follow the race and I've been picked out by them when I've run it. We name checked dozens of runners this year to give them personal support.
I followed the race at 6, 15-17 and 25 miles this year and noted that the fast (ie 2:05-2:30) runners received a great wave of support as they passed through as they were on their own or in small packs. They were easier to spot and had names on their bibs or recogniseable club vests. We waited at 25m for a 3:20 runner by which time we were becoming nauseous at the sheer amount of people going past. We then went to meet friends in Whitehall for a few drinks and then went down to Birdcage Walk to try and cross when the 5:30-6hr runners were coming through (no chance) by which time the crowds spectating had thinned out and were intent on trying to cross the road. Therefore from what I saw there were deeper crowds for the earlier part of the race than the latter.
So it is not correct to say that the faster runners do not experience the crowd support. Quite the opposite from running it 4 times and spectating 3 times.
What an interesting, if long read!!
I was one of the shortlisted for Supersix this year and not chosen and thought to add a few thoughts ...
Lots of sense spoken on here re how to amend for next year - maybe starting a little earlier - maybe even seeing the possibles in person and putting them through their paces before putting forward to vote, and also the one about follow up of the SSxers in a lower key race later in the year if they are up for it - all sound good. The one about personalising the schedules should still be of use to others - as long as it is explained why the schedules are being changed - that would be a learning process for others in itself, I'd have thought. The comments re adjusting time bands as you go are also v sensible. Since it would have been my first marathon, I was just basing my target on my half marathon time and a bit of hope as I think KK suggested!! As others have said though, I was selling it as being a learning process for other beginners rather than necessarily being a guarantee to beat the target (which I had set as 4:30 to 4:45 in my application).
I'll definitely echo the plaudits for the way that the SSXers kept their threads helpful and humorous throughout - a huge commitment. This seems to be one of the successes of the process - a way for runners with similar goals to bond and share stories, problems and support and advise each other. Lots of ongoing links seem to have been formed. I didn't have a place in a marathon, so had limited input in the threads, but found the ready advice from Liz Y and others on hash's thread helped me to smash my half marathon pb by 8 mins with a good race strategy (well and the training I'd put in as well!!)
I put myself forward as a beginner and was really surprised to be shortlisted - and ultimately the threads chose different people to be SSxers - there did seem to be a good mix of 2 beginners and 2 experienced runners and forumites in our group (sub 4:30) and nobody could argue that a worthy SSXer hadn't been chosen in Hash who is a complete inspiration. It was a bit weird as an unknown to most knowing how to pitch "getting out there" - which was a very odd part of the process.
Just to give an idea of what's happened to a shortlisted non SSXer ... I found it a fascinating process to be part of ... met some really good people here - though still do most of my posting on the thread I started on at RW (sub 60 min 10k thread) - which is "home" for me - do pop into others from time to time too! Had some good advice from people all over the forums really and still keen to keep improving. Mileage is up this year - aiming for 900 - and I've found I really enjoy the longer races best. Also good to meet Spinks and EP (ever so briefly) at dorney lakes and spend a good bit of time with Ian (another shortlister). Times improving - who knows till you run your first marathon - but I think I'm good at maintaining a steady plod and pace - so sub 4:30 is still a goal - though the first will be to actually complete!
Waffling on a bit - but even though I wasn't ultimately successful in getting chosen - being shortlisted did give me a better idea of the wider running community and forums, gave me some good new tips and advice (as BR suggests) - helped me to work through some of the things that I found puzzling about running and is something that was definitely worth being part of - even as a shortlister who went no further with the SSX process after not being chosen! Hope it continues next year to give others a great opportunity - even of being shortlisted.
Tiger's Mate Roo.....I like your idea.
Maybe have a pool of 6 people per time category (assuming 3 coaches) and let the mentors pick one each (taking it in turns to go first for each category).
A lot of people are suggesting that the winners should get extra time with the trainers.....this extra time could be used for the mentors to judge who they want in their team and also to give the runners a longer build up.
like that. Too much hassle.
Haven't had chance to read the full thread but very interesting and as my name came up from the Hard Training Thread with Hilly I guess I should say something.
The Hard Training thread was a response to Tracey Morris coming from seemingly nowhere and making the GB Olympic team - Hilly responded when I said most people can make similar improvement within their genetic capabilities but it took a couple of years of personal coaching, changing of plans and building belief before she got the sub-3 and it came in stages.
The conundrum for RW is that they are offering training plans as a prescription for runners to follow so in a sense they can't then give the Super Six something completely different otherwise it looks like they are not recommending their own published schedules (which were written by me - but that is not to say that I approve of published schedules - they are a reality of life as not everyone can be personally trained and they are a basic solution to getting help out widely. RW no longer publish them in the magazine as they are then static - publishing them on the website gives opportunity for questioning).
I would say the project should run for at least a year, preferably two, and the runners on faster targets should have put in a couple of years of marathon background before that. That is not likely to happen though due to the inevitable concentration of interest around VLM.
The realities are very different becuase of the concentration on VLM - most regular runners - including some of our best runners - see the marathon as a seasonal thing and only start training for the marathon 16-weeks out.
Successful marathon running is a specialist sport requiring specific long term training to build the correct endurance - even great runners like Paula, Geb, Paul Tergat didn't run their best marathons until their 2nd or 3rd years of marathon training.
New runners inevitably only have a short time from getting into LM to get running and then really only have from Christmas to train more specifically.
The schedules used offer a basis to work from and offer some structure - the skill of the Super 6 coaches is, I think, taking the runners from that starting point to try to manage the indviduals and show people how they can adapt the plans to suit changing circumstances.
I think it's a very tough job and much harder to pull off than the flexibility of the Hard Training thread I did with Hilly - which was also done without any commercial pressures - I did it cos I enjoyed doing it.
Interesting comments, Mike, that makes a lot of sense.
Reading between your comments is it fair to say that you wouldnt be too keen to get involved as a SSX mentor, even though it is based on your schedules?
The reason I ask is because the 'commercial pressures' emanating from RW/Lucozade could probably be summed up as a tendency towards making the marathon seem easier to train for than what it is, after all the RW target market is newbies and the commercal pressure is to entice them into distance running by making it look as attractive (read 'easy') as possible.
Your approach to marathon running was never to make it look easy, more a full blown attempt to explore the absolute limits of your genetic potential. With Hilly you got a participant who was like minded, in the sense that she was willing to work as hard as was necessary with complete focus on achieving the best she could.
Although the SSX participants may be prepared to put a lot of effort in there is still an RW incentive to downplay the effort required and encourage people to attempt a marathon with wholly inadequate preparation and background.
PRF, re your point that Hilly was willing to work as hard as poss, I think the SSXers might think that they too were willing to work as hard as necessary, but the point is that they are also not representative of the average mag. reader/ VLM runner. Just look at the competition for those places. The final six were clearly dedicated to the task, just that they weren't giving schedules involved as many miles as they needed.
Mike, and others who were around at the time of Hilly's thread: you will remember that there were actually 3 runners being trained. At the time Hilly was clearly the star, but to reinforce MGs point that 6mths is not long enough to make big changes, you might like to look at how BeckyS has progressed since. Although she had a bad day at VLM this year, her half marathon and shorter distance times have come down very impressively.
being a marketing tool to sell products when the chances of achieving that goal can be a
hit or miss. Plenty are training for the marathon on their own tod. You don't need mentors,
goodies and having your face in RW.
I would like to see a marathon project which starts in November to April. Where you choose
your goal, you have advice, schedules, discount on goods. When you have one to one
access with the mentor and forum chats aimed at your goal. This can work as marketing
tool if they promote it as a challenge of your goal and each goal is more of a club, rather than
one leading that goal.
PRF,
I'm not sure what my position would be if I was being paid to be part of the SSX - I think knowing me I would be a bit of a reble and do it my way - I think Paul did that in a slightly less confident way in the end but this was a new concept to him and in the end there were guidelines that I think he couldn't stray to far from.
I have never been paid for any thing I have done for RW online including adapting the training plans from my website which are tougher. This was not a deliberate policy (not to be paid - a few £'s would have been useful) but in the end it means I can say what I want.
And what I think is that there is inevitably a dumming down of training to make it fit the capacity of the majority of readers and the time scale they give themselves.
But as you get towards the faster targets or work with more ambitious runners whether that is to improve from 5 or 4 hrs or to run 2.10 then there is no hiding the fact that the training is long term and hard - almost to the extent that surviving the training is part of the success of marathoning - and that's why there's a copy of my training between Commonwealth Games in Oct 1982 and winning London April 1983 - not many people could realistically survive that training but it is one of the most read pages.
I think most ambitious runners look at what is necessary to improve rather than what's the least I can get away with to reach a target.
Thanks for the reply, Mike.
I did get the impression that Paul was holding back a bit, which was a bit disappointing, obviously, with his pedigree.
For most of us, picking the bones out of what you, Paul, Steve Jones and Charlie Spedding did is the best kind of training you can get.
As for your training before the London win, what was that session the Sunday before? A trip to down the shops to get your Sunday paper?
I think you're right that it comes down to the level of ambition but, despite the cries of 'its always been my lifelong ambition to run a marathon' you cant help but get the impression that a good number of VLM entrants do indeed look towards what the least they can get away with. They are lured into it by the hype of it looking rather easy rather than any great determination to put the hard effort in. Thats doesnt apply to the SSX participants themselves but more the people who read the glossy output from the project.
My last weeks training PDF - pretty heavy compared to most tapers.
SUNDAY 10: 10 miles steady
MONDAY 11: 14 miles – start marathon bleed-out (protein foods only for 3 days).
TUESDAY 12: 15 x 200, 200 jog rec.
WEDNESDAY 13: 9 miles steady XC (start carbo loading pm)
THURSDAY 14: 7 miles steady XC
FRIDAY 15: 5 miles easy
SATURDAY 16: 4 miles easySUNDAY 17 APRIL LONDON MARATHON
SUNDAY 17: LM 1ST Mike Gratton 2.09.43
2ND Gerry Helme 2.10.13
3RD Henrik Jorgenson 2.10.41
TmR - great to see Becky doing so well!
Hi Mike. You're right in saying that it's far easier to be part of a project when there is no pressure from sponsors etc and that would be for the mentor and the coached. My pressure was on myself to hit a target, but also I didn't want to let you down by not hitting my targets for the time you were giving me online and I did want to come back after my race to tell everyone I had done it. So I guess with any kind of online public coaching there is a certain amount of pressure. Although I have to say I love it and can take pressure quite well, it makes me work harder
LOL On my screen the session on Sunday 10th April read as '1 Miles Steady'.
http://www.209events.com/file/257.pdf
Obviously, it was '10 Miles Steady' - couldnt see you bothering to put your shoes on for 1 mile.
Erm, I wasnt accusing you of slacking, Mike.
I think most beginners are actually better prepared now PDF, and you don't get so many obviously distressed runners at the end - for many years most training plans were aimed at the front end - that has switched now and the magazines have to respond to the majority of the readership so you will seldom find a training plan targeting for much faster than 3hrs - probably only 5% of the readership.
That's not a problem as long as the faster runners belong to clubs with a good squad and coaching structure, which is where it sometimes falls flat as clubs seem to have struggled for senior members in the last decade.
My running success was based on being in a club that had 5 sub-2.20 runners and another dozen under 2.30, the same happened in Gateshead, Tipton, Aldershot, Coventry, Shaftsbury at the time - few runners trained in isolation - I don't seem to see that so much now but it is potentially there as Aldershot F&D have shown on the female side.