The Middle Ground

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  • 6 mile tempo sounds tough DT - how far would you push a tempo session? Further than 6 miles?

    Forecast still looks clear (if a little breezy) for Sunday.

  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    St Neots. weather looks sunny and cold 6-11 degrees on Sunday.  Is 11mph wind considered strong?
  • Not especially I don't think, but certainly breezy enough that you'll notice it I would say? The parkrun I did recently has wind of about 15/16mph and the bits that were into the wind were noticeably tougher.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    I always think that a wind forecast under 10 is great. Between 10 and 14 is acceptable and 15 and beyond is getting windy enough to damage chances.

    Good luck both!

    6 miles at recovery today. In terms of how far the intervals will go, I suspect out to about 9-10 miles, however the pace would need to drop accordingly so that in the whole the effort ends up roughly the same.

  • Time on the watch 43.23, so probably 43.25 on official times.

    Either way, a pb by about 25 seconds 🙂
  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭
    edited November 2018
    Nice one AD! Looking forward to the report! Amazing what consistent consistency does!

    parkrun yesterday got me just over 70% so got to be pleased. Eleven weeks of progressive consistent consistency with all runs slow. parkrun is currently my long run of the week...and you could probably say it is my tempo work as well!
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    nice work, Andrew. The system works if you have the patience.

    Glad yo hear you are well Alehouse. 

    Easy 13.1 today. Plan was to practice negative splitting. First 6.5 were at 8.10 pace average then second 6.5 at 7.50. still very easy but trying to work on that side of things.

    Jgav.....any luck??
  • Thanks guys!

    This was the race that I did last year and set a pb of 44:53 (I think) which was then bettered in April to leave my pb sitting at 43:49.

    Recent races and training paces left me feeling confident of troubling my pb if things went well. One calculator predicted 43:05 off my recent 5k pb, which seemed a bit sharp but I was hoping I could get something around 43:30.

    Allowing for the race distance to be closer to 6.3 rather than 6.21 (on the watch at least) I knew I had to maintain just under 7mm pace throughout and then give it some in the last half a mile or so.

    The race was a 2pm start, so plenty of time to fuel up this morning before heading over. Arrived at race HQ at 1.30 and did the obligatory sign up, fixing of chip etc and toilet stop then doing a warm up mile down to the start.

    This course takes a route starting on a country road about a mile from the stadium where the HQ is, before looping round some mildly undulating country roads and then back up into town and into the athletics stadium for a 100m rampage down the finishing straight.

    Mile one started too quickly, clocking 6:30 pace for the first half a mile (quicker than 5k pace!) but I managed to bring this down to 6:53 by the end of the mile. I realised this was slightly quicker than planned, but it felt ok so I pushed on at a similar pace for the next few (I think 6:51, 6:55, 7:00 for a more uphill 4th mile, 6:5x and 6:5x for miles 5 and 6).

    So far, so consistent. I was starting to feel it though and had to rein in a couple of retches after about 5.75 miles. Kept the pedal down in the final 0.28 miles though and stopped the watch on 43:23 before quite a long while spent in my haunches getting my breath back (with a few more retches thrown in for good measure)!

    I expect it will be 43:25 in the official results as it is gun timed only and I started 4/5 rows back.

    All in all, a pleasing result and I have sub43 in my sights for the spring.

    It also rounds off a good 6 weeks which have seen outright pbs at 5mile and 10k, and exactly equalling my 5k pb. A good training block I think!

    I’m planning a quieter week now, then some base training (at weekly mileage similar to recently but with less tempo miles) before kicking into a new 10k plan in January.

    Hope today went well JGav?

    Good parkrunning Alehouse, and good run there too DT!
  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭

    St Neot’s Half and final race of 2018

    Slight disrupted build up with the family all coming down with one virus after another for 2 weeks.  Everything started clearing up on the Wednesday and so a couple of days running put me in a good mood.  The Saturday was busy, I skipped my morning run to finish raking the lawn which was well overdue and it’s a really good core workout!  13 in total for lunch, food was too heavy and I really regretted eating too much when I felt too full to get out in the evening.  Oh well, will just have to trust the legs still know what to do.

    Sunday morning, 10 am start which was lovely and clear blue skies as well, pretty much perfect running weather.  Drove up with a friend who was going to target the 1h45 pacer due to only having run 3 times in the 2 months.  Nice to not have to drive though.  Parking, registration and obligatory loo stop all took too long but we still had enough time.  Decent organisation, just a lot of people.

    Onto the race, dressed in vest and gloves, it was a cool 7 degrees but with the sun I knew I would warm up.  Realised I was next to the 2 hour pacer and so started a very quick shuffle forward through the field to find the 1h30 guys, a quick chat with them told me that he was going to pace it quickly on the flats and downhills to leave something for the 3 hills, seemed reasonable so set off with them.  Looked around and saw nearly everyone was in club vests and skinny runner legs, going to be a fast group.

    Straight out of town and into beautiful country lanes, a bit exposed in parts which let the wind cut a bit but I hid in behind a big guy for shelter.  I could see the fast guys up ahead making a left turn and getting strung out.  I got shuffled out the back of the pack and so put in a little effort to get tucked in.  First couple of ks in 4.11 and 4.07, so right on track.  It felt like work and I was worried that I was too far off the fitness, made a deal with myself to hold onto them until 10k and reassess. 

    First big hill up through Abbotsbury, I found out that I am relatively stronger on hills though maybe I was just burning more matches.  HR settled into race levels of 175 ish.  Some mud on the roads to be avoided and a few cars trying to squeeze past were the only things which needed concentration but the rest was stay relaxed.

    Next big hill came up, this one was a bit more of a slog, started gentle then tipped up before settling into a slight incline 4.19 and 4.21 so there was the little bit of time back.  Plodded on to hit 10k in a PB time of 42.25.  So far so good, decided to stay on until 15ks and reassess.  Then my shoe lace needed doing and I lost about 30m on the pack.  Spent a few km trying to get back in touch (probably my first big mistake).  Just wasn’t possible, made it to km 15 and it was starting to hurt.   Hit 10 miles in 1.09, leaving 21 mins to do a downhill 5k should be easy right?

    The voice telling me to stop was getting louder, my heel was rubbing and I had a blister forming on my toe, not a good sign.  I made it up the last hill of the race to start the final 5k downhill and just didn’t have it.  The voice got too loud, legs were done and I ended up run walking it to the finish.  The last 5 k were much slower at 4.54/4.30/4.44/4.57/4.49.  Disappointed with how it turned out but I learned a lot!  Total time 1.33.08 and only slighter slower that the Royal Parks Half just last month.  Once I stopped I realised that my right ankle was also in a lot of pain and I’m still limping today.

    As I said, I think I've learned a lot and look forward to the next training block.  Try work on consistency and getting my weight a bit more under control, beer and chocolate being my downfall.

  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    edited November 2018

    St Neot’s Half and final race of 2018

    Slightly disrupted build up with the family all coming down with one virus after another for 2 weeks.  Everything started clearing up on the Wednesday and so a couple of days running put me in a good mood.  The Saturday was busy, I skipped my morning run to finish raking the lawn which was well overdue and it’s a really good core workout!  13 in total for lunch, food was too heavy and I really regretted eating too much when I felt too full to get out in the evening.  Oh well, will just have to trust the legs still know what to do.

    Sunday morning, 10 am start which was lovely and clear blue skies as well, pretty much perfect running weather.  Drove up with a friend who was going to target the 1h45 pacer due to only having run 3 times in the 2 months.  Nice to not have to drive though.  Parking, registration and obligatory loo stop all took too long but we still had enough time.  Decent organisation, just a lot of people.

    Onto the race, dressed in vest and gloves, it was a cool 7 degrees but with the sun I knew I would warm up.  Realised I was next to the 2 hour pacer and so started a very quick shuffle forward through the field to find the 1h30 guys, a quick chat with them told me that he was going to pace it quickly on the flats and downhills to leave something for the 3 hills, seemed reasonable so set off with them.  Looked around and saw nearly everyone was in club vests and skinny runner legs, going to be a fast group.

    Straight out of town and into beautiful country lanes, a bit exposed in parts which let the wind cut a bit but I hid in behind a big guy for shelter.  I could see the fast guys up ahead making a left turn and getting strung out.  I got shuffled out the back of the pack and so put in a little effort to get tucked in.  First couple of ks in 4.11 and 4.07, so right on track.  It felt like work and I was worried that I was too far off the fitness, made a deal with myself to hold onto them until 10k and reassess. 

    First big hill up through Abbotsbury, I found out that I am relatively stronger on hills though maybe I was just burning more matches.  HR settled into race levels of 175 ish.  Some mud on the roads to be avoided and a few cars trying to squeeze past were the only things which needed concentration but the rest was stay relaxed.

    Next big hill came up, this one was a bit more of a slog, started gentle then tipped up before settling into a slight incline 4.19 and 4.21 so there was the little bit of time back.  Plodded on to hit 10k in a PB time of 42.25.  So far so good, decided to stay on until 15ks and reassess.  Then my shoe lace needed doing and I lost about 30m on the pack.  Spent a few km trying to get back in touch (probably my first big mistake).  Just wasn’t possible, made it to km 15 and it was starting to hurt.   Hit 10 miles in 1.09, leaving 21 mins to do a downhill 5k should be easy right?

    The voice telling me to stop was getting louder, my heel was rubbing and I had a blister forming on my toe, not a good sign.  I made it up the last hill of the race to start the final 5k downhill and just didn’t have it.  The voice got too loud, legs were done and I ended up run walking it to the finish.  The last 5 k were much slower at 4.54/4.30/4.44/4.57/4.49.  Disappointed with how it turned out but I learned a lot!  Total time 1.33.08 and only slighter slower that the Royal Parks Half just last month.  Once I stopped I realised that my right ankle was also in a lot of pain and I’m still limping today.

    As I said, I think I've learned a lot and look forward to the next training block.  Try work on consistency and getting my weight a bit more under control, beer and chocolate being my downfall.

  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    Well done on your PB AndrewD and on the Parkrun Alehouse
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Unlucky, jgav. Targeting a time 3 minutes faster than a month ago was always going to be a big ask. 15 seconds a mile for me isn't far from the difference between my half and 5k paces.

    You have two recent times now to set your training paces correctly, which I think will be a big help. You often run faster than me on various runs I can run a half 10 minutes quicker than that.

    Nice report, Andrew.

    Easy 4 for me this morning to ease into what will be a pretty big week.

  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    I know it was ambitious, however I really did think I had a shot and of 1.31 if I missed it.  I think more experience and simply more miles will get me there soon enough.

    The majority of my running is done at 8mm-820mm only Thursday sessions are quicker than that.  I think it's a fairly balanced mix.
  • Unlucky JGav. As DT says, perhaps you just went out a bit too hard early doors, and had too ambitious a target. If it's any indication, based off that HM time, Daniels would have you running your 'easy' and long run miles at 8.23-8.53 and tempo/threshold runs at 6.58 pace. Different training plans and calculators will be different, but I'd guess that they will all be in the same ballpark. If I were you, I'd target doing a HM in the spring and aiming for something around 1.31.30, rather than 1.30, but I am naturally cautious and look at incremental improvements in pbs, rather than aiming to take big lumps off them!

    Hope you pull up ok today and the ankle pain isn't anything serious!


  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    big lumps in one go are great when they happen and sometimes you have to trust your fitness from training and go for it but that comes with a  risk.

    I seemed to recall a lot of your sessions are pushing fairly hefty paces. My easy 4 this morning was at 8.46 average. 8mm-8.30mm is the range I work with generally, however i'd only done my long run 15 hours earlier so erred on side of caution.

    To be genuinely easy it is generally recommended that easy pace should be 110-130 seconds a mile slower than 10k pace, so, taking yours at circa 6.45 that would fit in with the above.

  • Unlucky, JGav, but I think it was as much down to the nature of the course as pacing. As a rule of thumb I would say easy runs should be at a pace where you can comfortably hold a conversation. 

    AD: easy few days this week please. I would try to build your long run to 75/80 minutes over the next couple of months. Probably cut out the tempo until the new year and substitute it with some fartlek work instead to freshen things up. Maybe throw a few parkruns in with no intention of getting a pb: not really the time of year for it! And above all, enjoy your running prior to a more serious block in January. 
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
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  • Alehouse- I am certainly looking at freshening things up for the next 6-8 weeks. The last couple of long runs I did in this training block took about 70 mins from recollection, so it wouldn’t take much to extend to the times you’re talking about.


  • AD: if you are already at 70 I would work towards 90 in either this block or the next; I would then go no further unless you have half marathon ambitions...or are enjoying the longer runs!
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭
    JGav - sounded like a tough final 5K and paid the price for those speddy first few miles. But sometimes you need to be ambitious to test yourself! I think DT has it right regarding easy paces. 8-8:20 is on the fast side.

    Andrew - well done on the 10K! More to come if you can get the miels ion!

    Manic week for me at work but am hanging in on the training. Usually 4 days/40 miles on the bike with one day 2x5 mile run commuting. Saturday's parkrun was 223s faster than the week before and Sunday's 12.3 miles was 2 miles longer than the week before. Today was 5.6 miles with 2x400m, 2x800m, 2x400m, 2x800m off 90. Feeling quite good and also am back on my regular low carb eating, so the extra 7lb weight I've been carrying this year is now coming off.

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    saying that though I saw someone at my level post a 5 mile run on Strava at 6.50 average, calling it a recovery run!!! I almost got my Strava police warrant card out for that one!!

    Sounds like you are back on it, Dr Dan. my weight is slightly worrying at present, not helped by fact we haven't had a kitchen for nearly 3 weeks now so living off microwave and eating out. 

    5 x 1 mile today at 10kp off 1 minute. Nasty session. Reps came out 6.13, 6.13, 6.06, 6.19 and 6.10. 
  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    I hear what you're saying and now I'm officially in off-season just planning out what to do over winter.

    I was hearing about 9:1 walk run for long runs keeping ultra low HR.  Even on my LSD (Sunday runs) which I average 8.25mm I tend to end up in Z3 according to Garmin.  I struggle to run much slower without changing gait too much.  Thinking about giving it a go to develop leg strength and aerobic capacity.

    Twinned with that is my desire to become a better swimmer, so will be upping swimming to 2-3 sessions a week with one of those a club swim.  Then it will be 2x bike turbo smash fest (sweet spot/vo2/threshold). 

    The rest of the week will be made up of slow lunch runs, maybe 2-3 4milers.  Undecided what to do with Thursday club intervals, might be too much on top of the bike work so could leave it until Feb time.

    Nice build up Dr.Dan.
    DT19 - enjoy the speed work, you've got a huge base to work off.
  • Tasty session DT!

    Looking forward to getting out tonight for my first run since Sunday (circumstances prevented getting out sooner). Looks like it will be a proper 2 layers, hat and gloves run though - winter has definitely arrived.

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