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The Middle Ground
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P&D is excellent of course as well so if you went down that route you would be in excellent hands.
Lol Mr V, actually had to move the 800s to another day as the first 3 lanes of the track were being used! Surprising for a normal, never mind 7.30am...
So did 200/200/150/150/100/100 w/walkback rec. 27.0, 27.7, 20.1, 20.4, 13.5, 13.6. The 200s were almost a cruise, the 150s around 400 effort and the 100s flat out which shows there was a decent amount of lactic acid present even if it didn't feel like there was. Everything approaching 54 400 pace. Not bad at all
Pittsy welcome to the thread - wow great times from such a short career running (quite jealous myself
). Seems like the fast boys have given you some good ideas already so I'll merely say good luck.
)
BBB if you are having to take extra breaks in your sessions, you are running them too hard! Go out easier and accept a slightly slower pace, I promise you will get more benefit that way.
I can happily run at 10 mins/mile by the way. You just need to develop your shuffle (or race walk
Duck nice session, 54 400 pace for reps
Great summary of your training and possible improvements Phil. Are you doing an autumn marthon or just VLM next year?
Good to see Mr V and YD both talking about training again
Rest day yesterday, but walked about 6 miles instead
Mr V - My sporting background before running was playing football for about 20 years. Stopped a couple of years ago when my little boy was born and became quite unfit very quickly while doing nothing for a year, hence why i decided to try running.
Duck - Really impressive paces there, seriously quick.
Been a while since i've been on here, too much to catch up on so i'll congratulate those who've raced recently and for all the pb's, expecially those running at Brighton and London marathons, (and any others) - very inspiring, though it'll still be a couple of years until I feel like doing one I think!
Been trying to incorporate my new training paces into my runs over the last couple of weeks. Managed a few runs with some tempo miles in which went ok, and had a 7 mile hilly run at easy-steady pace which felt fine aerobically, though my legs were suffering from a weekend of building decking and a tough parkrun on saturday. I'll be interested to try some longer repetitions at 10k pace or something, be nice when I can carry this speed over to longer stuff. Other than that i've struggled to get in as many easy miles in as i'd hoped, been too busy recently.
WJH - I went over and did the Lakeside 5k race yesterday aswell, consolidated my parkrun pb of 19:09 from a few weeks ago by equalling it, though I felt this course was probably slower as it was so twisty, and maybe a bit longer as my average pace was higher by a couple of seconds. Paced it all wrong aswell though, think my splits were 6:01, 6:17, 6:13 and 5:50 average for the last bit, though I could be wrong, i'll check my watch later. It was something like that anyway, bit quick to begin with and slowing down too much in the second mile. After the race I felt like I still could have given it more, especially in the middle, and maybe by overtaking more people at this point instead of sticking with them I could have maintained a more even pace throughout. Nevertheless, I really enjoyed it, and it was nice to run a 5k with a field like this, I normally come well within the top 10 at parkrun, here I just scraped into the top 50!
Mr V – there was a schedule I posted up here and a revised schedule I was actually working to. I will post both up later when I get home, the revised schedule was much lighter on quality.
Bob – good sesh, tired and not mashed sounds good.
Phil – thinking about your reply last night, you talked about gym work. I am not sure what type of gym work you do? Weights, other cardio, core work? What kind of impact is it having on your running? Reason I ask is that I have upped the amount of strength/core work I am doing due to recent injury, and I have found that it is having an impact on my running. Sore muscles etc….
Duck – yea, part of me thinks just doing a P&D schedule would be a good idea. Keeping things simple for myself so I can concentrate on keeping well and clear from injury. It becomes more difficult when I start thinking about build up races I want to do etc…
Iower – I have found the 2nd mile to be the slowest during 5k races. The more experienced I get the better I am at even pacing, but still plenty room for improvement.
iower - More to come, from those splits.
Curly - Not sure of my exact plan at the moment. Definitely no Autumn marathon this year. After so many years spectating at London, I really bloody enjoyed the whole day on Sunday, but also the whole build-up, with a very strong group of us all training together for the same goal. So part of me wants to do the whole thing again next year, but provisionally I'm supposedly out of the country this time next year (mate's 40th, Vegas again!!), which would sort of tie in with discussions that some of us have had regarding Berlin next year. So we'll see how real these plans are; I guess the first decision would have to be made when the Berlin entry opens.
YD - My typical gym session is basically lots of core work on the floor, including squats and lunges, book-ended by a bit of cardio (10 mins bike/20mins rower). Once I'm into it I don't think it has an adverse affect on my ability to do the running sessions; sometimes I feel a little more tired but maybe that's no bad thing. In the last few weeks before the marathon I was getting a bit of ache in my lower back and I wondered whether this was because of lapsing on the core work. *checking fetch*... my last proper gym session was 21st Feb.
That's probably long enough to start losing some core strength I would have thought.
BBB - Thanks for the warm welcome. It has been a fun year of training and I certainly never thought I would get to the times I have got to when I went for my first run. I have been very fortunate with injuries which has allowed me a consistent spell of running.
Duck - will certainly be seeking your advice as have followed your improvements on this thread with great interest.
21ST Feb Phil! Slacker
Mr V – A link to Manchester training plans.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6uCmk32JQIpcktUN2VFbFZIOGM/edit?usp=sharing
Though there were different versions created between the two plans on the link. The first plan is the original plan I posted up a while ago, I didn’t ever get going with that.
I later came to the second plan, starting a few weeks later than the first plan.
The idea of the second plan was to list the key sessions in blocks to be ticked off over a 4 week period. There were 3 blocks of 4 weeks with 2 down weeks and a taper.
The sessions were structured in a rough order and to a training theme, but I was to be flexible in fitted them in week to week depending on how I was feeling at that time. I think that was a good approach, I was just a little ambitious with my mileage / quality combo.
How're you feeling recovery wise Curly? How are the VLMers too?
Pittsy, where did you play? Judging on your impressive times so soon I'm guessing you have decent natural endurance, so midfield?
Do ask away. I can help with the quick stuff
iower, good to se you posting. Good 5k, pacing looks quite good (similar to my 5k pb pacing which was 5'39/5'51/5'45/5'17).
YD, yeah good old KISS (the aycronym not the band unless you want to paint your face for your debut). Tbh the way I'd personally approach a debut marathon is simply to see if you can handle the volume, what you can do and what you can't re: long runs, long MP/pMP stuff, doubles, MLRs etc, and let the time be what it is. Then build on that for a time attempt second time out.
Curly, today's session (900m in 2'02.55) comes out at 54.46 average for 400m. Considering the short recoveries too (I go on 60s for 100m walked) I really think I can nail a good 400 soon. Just need the conditions
I have an 800m the evening of May 7th for my next race. Mum ran a 3000 race this evening (I was working so couldn't make it) in 11'17 after a 6M warmup!
As noted, that's a seriously fast session Duck! I wish I had your natural speed!
Nice run last night by the looks too iower! See what you say about the course being more twisty now you've mentioned it. Certainly looks like there is more to come there with your times as well! Come say hi if you are at the next race, only me and a female club member present from Gosport last night so it's pretty easy to spot me!
First run since VLM yesterday. Did an easy 5 miles round Hyde Park which felt anything but easy!
YD – Thanks for posting. I’ve looked at the post Brass Monkey stuff as I guess that is the marathon specific phase. I like the basic structure though as you’ve said there is lots of quality in there. Remind me what the idea behind doing more shorter tempo work as marathon day approaches was? Is that something you would include this time around? I’ve PMed you regarding what we talked about yesterday. Could post on here as well for other’s input?
Duck – Looking good there. Looking forward to seeing how your race times improve this year.
An enjoyable session of 7x 0.5 mile last night. Best I’ve felt for a long while. First 6 reps averaged just over 2.50. Average somewhat ruined by the final rep at 3.24 but that was uphill and into a huge headwind.
Duck - Great paces! Hope you get that conducive 400 race lined up soon - will be interesting to see what you produce.
Point taken and advice noted, Curly...though I'm sticking to my reason (excuse) that it was a combination of the wind and my own over paced first two recoveries that caused the issue at the back end of the third repeat.
I guess some would take more than the two minute recoveries I aimed for on the first occasion they tried a 4 x 1k repeats session anyway? My thinking (flawed or not) behind the session was that I was using it more for getting some more actual speed into my legs rather than looking for the speed endurance as it's something I only do once every fortnight at most. Probably ought to use shorter reps for that I know, but it's again all part of my attempt to keep things as simple as possible for as long as possible. Certainly wouldn't be looking to increase the pace on this one next time I tackle it anyway, and the focus for the next 2 or 3 weeks in my quicker sessions will be 10k pace rather than 5k pace. And regarding the walk / 10min mile pacing, I nearly did make a quip in your direction but decided you'd probably taken enough stick on that already so bottled it! 
iower - Another excellent 5k from you there. Top banana. Also, I was looking at the Run Britain Rankings this morning, and noticed a new entrant in the top 10 improvers for the month - those times look familiar. Assuming I've not been duped by a remarkable coincidence, well done! Parkrun tomorrow to consolidate your position?
Cricket nets and an easy 3 miles double for me last night. First time I've picked up a bat since August, and didn't feel too alien, though not sure how walking out to open the batting at 1.30pm tomorrow afternoon is going to feel as the bowling I faced was rather friendly (hopeless might be more accurate) to say the least! Still, I'm more interested in what I can produce at parkrun in the morning than the afternoon's cricket at the moment - probably says something about my shifting priorities.
BBB - I had one of my rare cricket dreams last night! I was batting against some pretty dreary bowling and hit a couple of cracking fours. The first was one of my favourite shots - I'm shit at batting so there aren't many to choose from - a pull shot picking up a half-volley outside off stump, one bounce over the rope to point, followed by a classic drive over the bowler's left shoulder to long on. Could this have been brought on by going for a drink last night with an old cricket buddy I haven't seen in years? I did say to him that I wouldn't be rushing back to play (umpire/taxi/score...) for the side any time soon, but might consider a guest appearance if he can sort out a fixture on that lovely pitch over the road in Greenwich Park. Good luck with the upcoming season.
Drink report: a couple of pints of Dark Energy stout (4.9%)... er... no, I'm struggling now! A pint of a very dark IPA @ 7%, a pint of something else, and a Kingfisher to wash down the lamb jalfrezi, cheesy peas, saag aloo and cheesy naan. The marathon recovery/slob-out continues!
Duck - Thanks for asking. My thighs feel normal again. Stairs feel normal. Lower calves still a little tender. Will hold out on running till at least tomorrow morning, but possibly just favour cycling this weekend if the weather's kind.
MrV - To pitch in re: shorter tempo work leading up to the marathon, my understanding is that there's a kind of continuum to how long it takes to either build-up or lose different types of fitness depending on the intensity, i.e. pure endurance takes a long time to build up, but stays with you, whereas at the other end, VO2 max will drop off more quickly if you don't do any training, but can be topped up fairly quickly. So the shorter tempo work is done, partly because all the real endurance stuff is done and in the bag (and to continue with high volume training will mean you're not recovering in time for the race), but also because you can top-up your threshold fitness, without causing further damage. The added bonus is that it helps minimise the sluggish feeling you get during taper, and mentally gives you confidence that you're still capable of running quicker than target pace, at a time when doubts can start creeping in. And it makes marathon pace on the day, to begin with at least, feel very easy.
Nice session, Mr V. You're getting there.
Phil - Thanks, still looking forward to the cricket season (despite the new
competition it has for my affections), and we're hoping for a good 'un having
narrowly missed out on promotion last season - we'd have been promoted under the new 2013 rules in fact. I've been known to lose hours on that ratebeer site BTW and love the sound of that stout, right up my street...sounds like a good night all round in fact!
Right, cricket pedant's hat on: -
"...a pull shot picking up a half-volley outside off stump, one bounce over the rope to point" - an attempted pull off a half-volley?! Sounds more like an attempted ugly moo over cow corner to me...and if it's gone one bounce over the rope at point, you must have got an enormous outside edge on it!
"...a classic drive over the bowler's left shoulder to long on" - assume you're a cack-hander then if it's gone over his left shoulder to long on...unless it was his
left shoulder as you looked at it? Sounds like a nice shot anyway - the on drive is
something I've never really got to grips with!
Cricket pedant's hat off again...I'm jealous of your cricket dreams. Mine are
rubbish, and usually involve me scrabbling around to get my kit on in time to not be
timed out by the umpire...probably something to do with my guilt over an horrendous sense of time-keeping seeping over into dreams about something I love!
Gah!! I spotted my first mistake after posting but things went a bit funny and I couldn't edit. Not a pull shot at all, a genuine "late cut". A gem, it was. As for long on/off, that's just me being scatty.
This was a strangely normal scenario for me. My other cricket dreams usually involve bowling, but trying to deliver something distinctly less spherical than a cricket ball, usually a stick or something. They don't get very far.
Ha! Yes, looked like the whole forum went boobs up for a couple of hours or so there, I couldn't post either. A late cut to a half volley that goes for a one bounce four to point, would still be some improvisation mind...in cricketing terms you must be the offspring of the T20 generation! Would have to be something like this in stance, probably even a little lower, but played with an angled bat and you'd need to be 'checking' the shot (as opposed to the follow through of Phil Hughes here) to get it through point!
I like the random nature of the alternative dreams there - brings a whole new meaning to 'Stick Cricket'!
http://www.sticksports.com/game/stick-cricket/world-domination/
Bitterly cold at parkrun this morning. 'Feels like' 1C according to Garmin in the strong northerly wind. Scanner problems too at the end, so probably going to be at cricket when the official results come through later, but I made it 20:58 as I crossed the line which would be another 15 second PB, and all but a full minute (59 seconds) off in the last 3 weeks.
Great work Bob, where's that plateau?!!!
If anyones wondering what Mr V was on about, we are talking about agreeing on a joint approach to Marathon training for our respective autumn Marathons. We have bandied a few ideas back and forth and I have just ordered a copy of P&D to have a look at. So once we have an agreed approach we will post upon here what the plans are. Mr V is running the Yorkshire Marathon, I failed to get a spot yesterday, so I am on the lookout for an Abingdon Marathon spot, it’s the same day so training cycles can be alligned.
Joint approach sounds good YD, would be interesting to see how you start fitness-wise and if the programme progresses you both the same, or if one progresses more in one area, and who makes the best improvements (relative of course). Ooh....
Well this morning was 3*800, prime example of how I am still learning this type of training and how training is a constant feedback process.
Plan was for 6 minute recoveries. First 800 was good in 2'19.2, but 6 minutes recovery isn't enough for something that intense so the second was a lactic hellfest in 2'27.4. The third was canned after 400m in 73.
This session has potential, recoveries just need to be tweaked. The first 800 felt pretty good though. I'll try again on Monday.
Hi, I am new to this thread and it seems the place i might get the advice i am after.
I am looking to knock my 10k/HM times down to next level. I am currently coming in at 39/40 min 10k and 1.27-1.29hm. I have been running 2 years (though seriously 1yr) and all my times are about 2 mins down on when i started. However i know plenty of guys in that time that have knocked 2/3 times that off in same time. My current training is one long run (12-13 m at circa 7.30mile) a proper interval session (maybe a pyramid or 8 x 3 min efforts say) one med pace run (10 miles circa 7.10 miles) and 1-2 flat out teadmill 5k's (about 19 min dead).
It has been suggested i throw in a track speed session, say 3 x 1 mile at 6.00 min mile pace. Would this or any other tweaks speed up my progress. I am fairly convinced its speed work i need as in hm's the last 5 miles i am flying and my ave pace in 5,10k and hm barely differs. As soon as i drop much below 6.26 pace, over any distance i begin blowing.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
DT19 - that’s a recipe for injury and burnout IMO. I would do the following:
Slow the long run and 10 miler down to 8 min miles and slower. Add in some more easy runs in the 8 min mile and slower bracket, say a couple of 5 milers to start with.
Quality: maximum two sessions per week, though I would limit it to one per week until you have the extra easy runs bedded in.
So, the interval session you mentioned seems fine, 3 x 1m is fine, I would also consider adding in some tempo runs and threshold work to help you hold a higher pace in a race. 10 miles at MP (7:00 per mile ish) is fine, something like 5 or 6 x 1m at 10-15 seconds per mile slower than 10k pace with short recoveries of 30-60 seconds would be a good start, or 20-25 mins at threshold, or 4-5m @ HMP would all help you hold a pace. It seems weird at first but running solid efforts at just below race pace (threshold being a bit slower than 10k pace) helps you hold a higher pace in a race.
As for the flat out 5ks, drop those as a weekly session and add them in as monthly time trials to test progress. Might be better doing them outside, do you have a local parkrun? If so use that.
Duck - yea, I have a fair bit of groundwork to do this summer, getting some base miles down and building strength is the priority now.
Sounds a very tough session that btw, and those paces are still impressive to me! I think it would be easier if you had someone to chase, do you have anybody you can use to run that session with?
YD/Viper - sounds like you're turning this into a marathon thread!
At last I might have something useful to say!! 
YD - are you completely over your injury now?
I agree! (even though you're faster than me DT, your lack of improvement would suggest that you're not allowing enough recovery from hard sessions).
Couldn't work out how to get outside YD's quote!
Lost parkrun virginity at Delamere Forest yesterday. A comfortable tempo pace round in 23 and a bit.(Forgot to stop watch.) will try to do the same session weekly now and hope times drop for the same PE as fitness returns. Feeling happier about my running than I have for a while now!
Bob - Well done, another barrier broken. Roll on sub 20
DT19 - You've had some solid advice from YD there. I second all of it.
Minni - Your experienced marathon head can keep us in check then
Chubby - Good to hear you feeling positive about your running again.
Sunderland 10k for me this morning. Conditions were pretty brutal with a very strong wind to contend with. The supposedly flat course is also quite testing with a fair few ups and downs. Given recent struggles I set off very cautiously and clocked a 6.20 for a pretty windy mile 1. Then I ramped things up for a 5.57 and then another 5.57 for mile 3. These miles were reasonably sheltered. Mile 4 was windy again and had a nasty little hill so pace dropped to 6.11. Then the final 2 miles were straight into a very strong headwind and I was completely treading water. Splits of 6.27 and 6.50 tell the story! Anyway finished in 39.22 (for 6.27 on the Garmin). I think conditions were worth alot today. I'd say around a minute at a guess. If that's the case then I'm definitely starting to move in the right direction. I have another 10k next weekend (albeit on a tough course) so hopefully conditions will be a little kinder. My target now is to try and clock a 37:xx next month. Then hopefully I can start to push on back to PB shape.
Sounds like you're well on the recovery road Mr V. Well done in tough conditions.
Well done Mr. V, and indeed well done at Delamere yesterday, CB: that's more like it! Was going to say to both you and YP that running is the best stress release there is, and I don't think I could have coped with parts of my career without it!
Was at the Greater Manchester Marathon this morning: quick course, assuming it was accurate (!). 5 women under 2:48, and Dave Norman, having been 2: 25 down to Andi Jones at 20 miles ran the last 6 miles 385 yards in 32 minutes dead, passing Jones and winning by 2 minutes 10. London it is not in terms of crowds, occasion, etc, but having trained on almost all the course over the years it is very flat and potentially very quick should they get some real fast boys to take part.
Still heading in the right direction here but legs are ready for tomorrow evening's massage.
Do you think it was short alehouse? My mate ran it and his Garmin link showed 26.1 miles, but I just assumed that was Garmin inacuracy?
DT, welcome along, yeah first thing I would do is slow down the bulk of your running a bit. Drop the flat out treadmill runs and replace one of them with a 30-40 minute tempo run in the 6:30/m bracket for sure.
As YD says I'd stick to 2 quality sessions per week. So assuming 5 days per week take 3 easy days and 2 quality days. I'd take one to be some kind of tempo session (like the one I suggested above, or another take on the steady 10 you do - like 3M easy/6M @ 6:50/m/1M easy) and the other an interval session (I'd keep mile intervals no quicker than 5kp so roughly 6:00/m). Easy runs, for the 3 I'd do 40 mins/60 mins/90 mins and keep the 90 min one slow!
YD, one of the guys at work might be joining me on occasion but we rarely have the same days off. Yeah it is a very difficult session, provisionally I'm going to take 10 mins rec tomorrow for the same session. If only the track had a mechanical rabbit
Mr V, if you ran 6:50 for the final mile that really tells a story of conditions. Well grafted!
Was working at the Balmoral 15M trail race today, mum picked up a 4th overall female and first jogscotland member home so won some (more) prizes. Had a really good chat with a Salomon rep who was there too so I'm more clued up on the brand now!