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The Middle Ground
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Thanks CB/BBB. Have decided i am going to concentrate over next 3 months on my 10k as dont have a hm until september now. I want to start a more structured programme from next week. Have spent a lot of timke scrolling forums on here and directly taking advice on here. I wonder whether anyone has a minute to review my proposed plan below?
Monday - Recovery run 5 miles/40-45 mins at circa 8.30 per mile
Tues- Club session intervals whatever they may be that week.
Wed - steady 8 miles at circa 7.45 min/per followed by 8-10 strides
Thurs- cycle to work (28 mile round trip) or treadmill lunchtime (always at least one week night i cannot get out due to familiy committments)
Fri- Tempo session (probably on track for consistent conditions, mix of 20 mins at current 10k pace, 6 x 1 mile at desired 10k pace with recovery or 10 x 1k at 6.26 pace.
Sat Rest
Sunday- Long run roughly 12 miles between 8-8.30 min/mile followed by strides
wed-sat are all fairly interchangeable taking account i have a 3 years old and a wife that likes to have a full unrushed evening at the gym at some point.
Any thoughts on that as a general structure to get my 10k down would be appreciated?
Thanks
Bob, good to see there is no bad reaction. I would be tempted to play it safe and either not run the race or run it sub-maximal. There is just no point in risking further damage for one race. Havign said that you're the best judge there is of your own body but do play it safe if you have any doubts at all.
iower, sounds like a 10 mile race we have up here that's very hilly. It's tough as hills really break up your momentum and it can be difficult to get going again. Well run.
Well, I'm running like shit off a shovel right now. Was down the beach this morning (track was shut for maintenance, what a shame when you get views like this). Did the following session:
1k in 3'03 (4'56/m) - easy, just plain easy, could have gone on for much longer.
5 min rec
3*40s w/3'00 rec (3'52/m, 3'46/m, 3'53/m) - all just about 300m, give or take.
The k was so relaxed and comfortable I think I could have finished a full mile in under 5 minutes today. The 40s efforts ended up with the final one feeling like the first 300m of a 400m race. Paces won't be exact of course as I was on the road using GPS, but I was strong and running well through a sea of lactic acid. Bring on Thursday.
With recent experience of hills killing a 10k race, I can sympathise with your struggles on Sunday, iower! Still something I need to address once I'm fully fit. Thanks for the tips on the stretching - will give that a go this evening.
DT19 - You'll get better advice than I can offer, but your second and third options for your Friday session look distinctly on the hard side to me. 6 x 1 mile, or 10 x 1k at 10k pace will be a real leg killer I'd have thought - you're effectively racing the full distance at full pace (or greater) there. Those options would also be giving you a second intervals session of the week. Your first option looks good though, I think you'd be better off with a shorter tempo and look for some variety by week with those - say progress through the paces as an alternative (M / HM / LT / 10k), or 2 x 2 miles with recovery as per some advice Simon gave me recently. Rest of the week looks fine though I'd have thought.
You're flying, Duck - absolutely flying. Great pic too - what a lot of BLUE! Gorgeous. Lovely spot to train - very jealous, though you can keep your winters.
And yes, I'm still going to be very cautious. Any hint of a problem tomorrow during either the warmup on tarmac, or during the quicker stuff on the grass, I'll be knocking it on the head, walking home, and the race will be off. Any hint of a problem during an easy 3 miles with a few strides from work on Friday lunchtime, I'll walk back to work and the race will be off. Any reaction to either of those and the race is off. Any recurrence during cricket on Saturday, or during Sunday's warmup, and...you've got the picture. Even the race itself is 2 laps of a park, so easy to call time on if I'm struggling. Basically everything has got to go smoothly between now and 10.15am on Sunday for me to get to the end of the race. Feel good enough to give myself the opportunity to at least have a crack at this stage though.
YD and particularly Curly amongst those who are notable by their absence at the moment. Wonder how they're getting on?
Duck, thanks for the link. I've read the thread and the idea that 400/800 runners should take a different approach to endurance is interesting and. I suppose it is down to focussing on your strengths. For example, I will do a few of those types of sessions this year (I call them quality intervals), but probably not until my competition phase.
I guess your recent endurance gains are due to this approach. Whatever it is, you seem to be flying at the moment.
Bob, a couple of people have said I held better form at the end, but I was up to the eyeballs in lactic and can see how tense I am. There is a point just before the finish line where it looks like I slow because I know I have it won, but actually my body has just completely given up on me.
I'm glad you're feeling better. I would definitely keep icing until you're 100% better.
Nice to see you getting the miles in again, CB.
Well done on the race, iower. What's next? Something flat?
DT, my main concern is that you're not doing any lactate threshold work. IMO that should be the primary focus for a 10k schedule. I'd suggest the following changes:
Monday: Slow it down to about 9min/mile pace.
Wed, Sun: strides are great, but better off done early in the session so they are performed with good technique.
Wed: Perhaps drop the pace a touch if you have a hard Tuesday session
Fri: Sounds like a tough session. I would limit this one to once every 3 weeks. On the other two weeks do some 10 mile pace work. E.g. 2 x 15' @ 10mile pace with 5' recovery. Or perhaps 40' @ HMP
Hi everyone. Not got much time at the mo either so sorry if I miss anything.
Duck - have you hit another peak with your training more recently? Indeed you seem to be flying!
Good luck on Thursday! Btw...that linked picture looks a little like Stokes Bay down here in Hampshire!!!
Nice race win there Simon and good effort in particular at the end!
Nice 3k race by Stevie too. Would be interesting to run in some shorter stuff but not sure how to go about doing it...our club doesn't track train or enter any such races!
Nice 5k Vellooo and good to see you are feeling more pleased following your HM, which didn't seem that bad considering the described conditions anyway!
Good to see the mojo coming back YP!
Nice long run too CB! Good to see you on the comeback trail too!
Hope the shin is all ok for the Liecester 10K Bob! Good to read you have been cautous with it too! Bet its a busy time ahead for you what with the cricket season as well!
Nice to read of your general training plans there Phil and the contrast to the marathon sessions you had (which must keep things fresh mentally too!) - it's also nice to see that you do make schoolboy errors occasionally though so are more human in some aspects after all!
. I also remember your gloves mistake in your triathlon earlier this year...opps!
DT - sounds fustrating with the start at the Bristol 10k! Perhaps you needed to start further up the field? Either way, the sub 40 will come. In many way's, I never thought it would come for me!
When is your 10k race Pittsy78?
Iower - good going Sunday and indeed plenty faster 10 mile races about than this...do you think the warm conditions also had an influence on the race? Can't say it's one i'd like to do again either...I also remember pain as noted around the 5 mile marker previously for me!
Cardiff Bay 5 for me yesterday...The 'A' target was for sub 31 and managed this with 30:55 so was pretty happy with this ('C' target was over 32 minutes). Fastest mile split being the first in 6:00 and the 4th in 6:27. So more improvement may be possible with better pacing...although I am not a fan of running in the warmer conditions like yesterday! Brother was out of sight in the first mile and finished in 30:11 (sorry Mr V it wasn't to be!
). His first race was this last year in 37:XX something and his improvement at the moment seems pretty rapid! Really hope he keeps at it as I think he could improve a fair bit more yet particularly considering his mile splits (fastest being the first in 5:39 and slowest the fourth in 6:27 so not the best pacing wise for him at all). We went on a 'recovery' run in the afternoon....let's just say I felt like I'd been dragged through a hedge with it! Next race coming up is the Netley 10k a week Sunday.
WJH well done on reaching your A target, especially on a hot day. With even pacing faster times may come, I can't pace to save my life, my splits are all over the place.
DT19 thanks to YD I've become a P&D swot, the sort of programme they set out for a 10k are a long slow run, a medium long slow run, then they alternate VO2 max work outs (e.g 5x800m at 5k pace or 6 x 2.30 mins uphill) one week, with LT workouts (4 mile tempo run or LT intervals) and speed session 10x100m in the same week but on a different day. Hope that makes sense...
YD great to hear you are on the come back trail!
Duck good luck for Thursday! Are you or your mum doing any of the Moray races in Sept? I'm thinking about the half, bf is very keen to do it.
Thanks for you thoughts guys. It sounds like i am roughly on right lines. BBB-you're right, i dont think i thought about the friday session, but i have been given some good alternatives above.
Simon- yes Tuesday is a tough session so not a bad idea re wednesday. I dont mean to ask stupid questions but am confused by a couple of terms used. What exactly is lactate threshold training and how is that different from say working at threshold pace or tempo work etc? we did 5 x 1200 intervals tonight off a minutes rest which i did at 6.20-6.30 mile pace so just faster than 10k pace. What does that classify as?
Looking forward now to kicking this off. This forum has given me a much needed new impetus!
Si - Cheers. Right, will get the ice out this evening after my run.
WJH - Great runs at Cardiff from you and Bro-JH - looks like a great translation from your 5k PB, and must suggest you're still making good progress I'd have thought. Have a midweek 5-miler coming up myself (fitness permitting) 3 weeks today. Will be my first crack at the distance so looking forward to that. And yes, you're right - busy times with cricket in the mix now as well...and didn't take long for the combination to cause things to go pear-shaped with the shin problem either! Certainly won't be shoe-horning a parkrun, game of cricket and a long run into just over 24 hours again in a hurry! Quiet start with the bat too - hit the first ball of the league season for 4 on Saturday, but have only managed 22 runs from 2 knocks so far. Need a score rapido with the competition for places now hotting up.
DT19 - Fair question, not stupid! Still confuses me somewhat, and I'll be interested to see others' interpretation but my take (largely based on reading Mcmillan - stick some numbers in here and look at the explanatory pop up bubbles on the training paces - http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/ ) would be that tempo is more of a catch all term that refers to a longer period of running (say, 15 to 40 mins) at some of the longer race paces - say 10k to marathon. I'd interpret the intervals you did last night as speedwork. Being still quite new to running and with lower mileage than you, I've rationed my weekly quality work since I got a bit more structured with my training to one of either a tempo session or an intervals session, with the odd parkrun/race thrown in once a fortnight or so to measure progress. With your more well established base and higher mileage, I'm sure you can justify the two quality sessions per week provided the rest of your running is easy. The theory being I think that the easy running will leave you feeling fresh to really hammer the quality sessions, and thus see the improvements you're after.
WJH - Well done on hitting your A target time, always feels good to hit your target. My 10K race is on this Sunday, hoping for a sub 40 time although I did a bit of a reccy of the course at the weekend and it is more off road and hilly than i remember!
Duck - Frightening speed, sub 5 minute miles feeling easy must be a great place to be. Hope thursday goes well.
Getting back into the training since i have been back. Did some easy running on Monday, 6X600 intervals yesterday with 1 minute recovery. Average pace was 5.37 miles which was slightly slower than i wanted but i couldn't have kept any kind of consistency at a faster pace. Planning to do a progressive 10 miler tomorrow with a mixture of MP, HMP and 10K pace.
Iower, the 10m sounds like a good workout even if it wasn't a pb course. Well toughed out!
DT, I agree that the Friday session seems hard. Maybe build up to 6x1m during a 6 week block?
Duck you're absolutely flying! That first k seems ridiculously fast!
BBB - take it easy! Sounds like you've got the right idea.
WJH well done in Cardiff. Your brother sounds like he's got potential.
Nice session Pittsy.
Gentle ish club run last night, then intervals this morning. 6x800m off 200m recovery. Again, no target paces, just pushing myself.
Wind's picking up here!
Congrats on hitting your A target, WJH. I think you'd gain quite a few seconds from more even pacing.
Well done on the AM intervals, CB. I don't envy you.
DT, lactate threshold is the intensity at which your body starts producing more lactate than it can process. So it builds up and slows you down. The correct training can raise this point, which basically means you can run faster before experiencing lactate's debilitating effects.
And the correct training is basically getting in miles run at around LT intensity. Opinions seem to differ on what's best: Lydiard would recommending pushing it up from beneath; P&D claim that training at slightly above is best; I have personally found that training below or at is better.
The correct intensity is about 88-92 MHR. The correct pace is about that which you could maintain for 1 hour.
The standard session is the 20-minute run, but you can get in some extra time by breaking the session up. E.g my personal favourites are along the lines of:
2 x 15' with 10' jog recovery
2 x 3 x 5' with 1' jog recovery; 10' jog between sets;
So Lactate Threshold might be the same as "threshold" or "tempo", depending on how you define them, but that's the problem with those terms - they are so loosely defined. The same goes for speedwork. See above where Bob suggests your session the other night was speedwork. However, it was run at a lower intensity than my longest distance race so I wouldn't call it that.
I wouldn't worry so much about what to call that session. It's a bit fast to qualify as lactate threshold and a bit slow to qualify as VO2 max, so it doesn't fall neatly into an energy system category. But that's not to say it's not useful. Since you're training for a 10k, it's going to be a good idea to get good at running at 10k pace. It is important to get in some proper VO2 sessions though (intervals at 8- to 15-minute race pace).
If you do the 2 x 3 x 5' session I suggest above you could even run the first rep at goal 10kp. Since it's short you probably won't even exceed LT - just remember to slow down for the rest of them.
Sorry I haven't posted for a while. Took a couple of weeks off to get over a couple of niggles that were causing me problems and had a spot of man flu too. Trying to learn from my mistakes and from the advice of a few of you on here. Aiming to up the mileage while trying to stay fresh.
Did 6km on Sun, an easy 4km on Monday and then decent paced 10km today in just over 50mins today. Plan is a spot of interval training tomorrow, and a nice long steady 8m on Saturday. I want to run my half marathon in October so I need I know I need to be running 30km a week or so, and this week should end up more than that.
Quick question, can anyone suggest a good intermediate interval program for someone training for a long distance race? I've googled it and not found anything particularly interesting!
Tom you could start by reading the first three threads here
It sums up the middle ground ethos (which Duck built on a while ago!)
For the quality, for a HM (and I'm no expert, not believing I have the time to train for a half effectively), I would build up runs at race pace to around 7m, interspersed with other tempo sessions of MP and Threshold (Simon gave a couple of good threshold sessons above). Then perhaps some speddwork of 8 min and 15 min pace to push VO2 max levels. You could try to build up to
5 x 2.5 min at 8 min pace, with 2.5 min rest, or
4 x 5 min at 15 min pace, with 3 min rest.
Hope this makes sense.
Bob - sounds sensible to me.
Curly is around and posting on Fetch. Doing a mile soon I believe. Not sure on YD.
Simon, yeah it's a very interesting thread. It does seem to have played into my strengths right now (both physically and psychologically). I imagine you'd be doing stuff like 1k @ mile pace or just faster?
WJH - nice work beating the A target. Sub-39 10k next? Pacing is difficult to get right, it's almost a case of playing chicken with effort levels in the early stages then coming back through strongly later.
vellooo - nope, mum's decided to give it a miss this year and I'm not doing anything above 5k for the forseeable future so I won't be running (may be there if Run4it put a stand on though). The half is very good but if it's windy towards Lossiemouth then it can be quite a slow first 10k.
Pittsy, 5:37/m can't be sniffed at. Remind me of some recent race times? Been a few newcomers recently and I'm struggling to keep up!
Don't think I posted this, but here's me on Sunday running 42.8 for 300m. Weather typically is calm every day this week aside from tomorrow. If it's good conditions I think 54.xx could be achievable.
Simon/BBB in particular, thanks for your explanations. It seems different people use the varying terms in slightly different ways and being new to a slightly more sophisticated approach to training i'm getting a bit confused. I am also getting a bit confused as everyone has a slightly different plan/approach. I suppose like many things in this field there is no exact right or wrong way, i just need to pick one and trial it. Eitherway i should benefit from a structured plan at my current level.
Can these tempo sessions be done on a track or treadmill? The thought of going out round here and running even hm pace worries me as i am surrounded by hefty hills and would find it almost impossible to run more than a mile or two without hitting a hill! at least on the other options it will guarantee i sit at the planned pace with no excuses of hills if i come in 10 secs a mile short.
The 2 x 3 x 5 session does that mean a 2 min rep, then 2 x 3 min reps, then 3 x 5 min reps?
Thanks
Chubby, that thread is excellent, thanks. I think I probably was one of those bad trainers. I went from being able to run a 5km in 27mins and be nearly dead at the end, up to running a 10km race in 43mins in six weeks whilst only running 20km a week. It worked in the short term and I was ecstatic at my results but it wasn't sustainable which is why I had to take time off.
Duck - I haven't done many recent races due to marathon training. During the build up I did a 1:21 half marathon at Eton Dorney which is a very fast flat course, a 2:12 20 mile race and a 37:21 10km. Would like to get a 10k time in the low 36:xx and also try and get near to sub 80 minutes for a half. Probably a bit ambitious targets but it is good to have something to aim for.
Tom - 3 x 5 min with 1 min rest between each rep, jog for 10 mins then repeat.
Morning All. Anyone else struggling with the recent heat? The humidity is completely draining my running energy.
Pittsy – Those targets seem very achievable. That’s pretty much where I want to be pre my mara campaign.
Duck –Did you race last night? Don’t keep us hanging!
I’ve just been plodding along the last week or so. Did my home town 10k on Sunday and unexpectedly found PRF on the start line! He went on to a top 10 finish and won the vet race. No sign of marathon recovery legs there then.. I more or less matched my time from the previous week, although I was 90 secs down on last year’s time. Still it’s a rather testing course (mile 1 - 6.50, mile 6 - 5.42 coming back down) and was fairly humid with a stiff breeze.
Marathon programme planning with YD is coming along nicely. We are opting for a slightly amended version of P&D. Looks like it will be a 12 week programme although there will be some pre mara work before that so we are good to go at 12 weeks out.
Parp, parp...good session/fitness test last night with not so much as a grumble from the shin.
Just under 5 miles in total, with 3 miles of progressive tempo on grass after a mile warm up across tarmac. Aim was HM/LT/Target-10k paces (7:24/7:11/7.00) and despite the torrential rain and blustery wind felt strong and comfortable throughout, just dipping under each target pace without making any effort to do so with 7:21/7:10/6:57. Just under 21:30 for the 3 quicker miles, which scaled up for the extra 0.1 miles would have been eyeballs out 5k PB pace just a couple of months ago. More importantly than that though, felt no reaction from the shin during, after or since and haven't felt it whilst walking either over the last couple of days for the first time. Looking good for Sunday now.
Some good intervals from Pittsy there - and Chubby continuing to get back into the groove with a few too - good to see that, and you appearing back on here more regularly too.
Welcome back, Tom K. And you're right about that Moraghan thread - great advice I think. I have it bookmarked and dip back into it from time to time as a reminder of what I should be aiming at, and try to be at least guided by its principles. I'll be back after your 10k PB on Sunday BTW - 43:30 will be the 'A' target in fact, though there's quite a few targets between that and my current (now very flabby) PB of 45:40 that would still bring some satisfaction.
Thanks, Duck and all the best again for today. Good to hear Curly's still at it. And hopefully the dirty Leeds fan, YD is still making strides with his comeback and will pop in with an update before long.
Right - better do some work.
EDIT: Good to see you getting some more racing in, Mr V and to hear that PRF is ploughing on impressively despite the marathon and particularly backend mishap. Guess all's well with YD too if you're still planning the mara training.
Hope to hear you beat it Bob. Seems like you've been working really hard, and even if taking two mins of your PB is ambitious, even if you don't get there this weekend, you will in due course. Legs feel good after a decent quality 6.5m yesterday which is good news. Plan to celebrate by trying out Chubby's suggestion for interval training after lectures tonight...
Ive also dipped into the Moraghan thread from time to time...some very useful tips there. Much the same reason for posting on here since much of my running is done on my own and needed something additional for motivation!
Excellent session there by the looks Bob! And great to see there were no further setbacks with the shin! Oh and YD a dirty Leeds fan?
I've heard that Alex Ferguson retired as he didn't want to face the mighty Bluebirds! 
Nice intervals Pittsy and hope the progressive 10 miler goes to plan...good luck Sunday if I don't post again beforehand.
Good racing Mr V! Really need to get to grips with the P&D stuff...haven't really read much into it - despite no marathons planned until Autumn 2013 potentially it will be good to get my head around it's principles, etc!
Hope you hit your planned target with the intervals tonight Tom K. Upping your mileage a bit more (if you have the time, etc) will have a very positive impact on your times coming down i'd think!
Aiming to do a tempo run tonight (7 miles with 3 or 4 depending on how I feel at 10 seconds below 10k pace). Like with many of you, I do get confused with the threshold and tempo meanings hence why Simon's post is really useful....this should be a good session though if I can hit each mile on target pace as I have not actually done this sort of session since March when I PB'd at Eastleigh (that was just about sub 39 Duck!
) what with the revised target paces which will be required.
Will also try an interval session probably next Tuesday (8x800 with 90 seconds recovery)...quite a bit of quality there but managed this in December (just about anyway!
) so will be good to see how things have progressed since!
Tom - One point that stands out from your post - you mention a 'quality' 6.5 miles yesterday, and an intention to tackle some intervals tonight. Depends on what you're classing as quality last night, but if a significant portion of that run was above easy pace, I think most would caution against intervals tonight - you wouldn't normally do faster sessions back-to-back. Don't risk those niggles flaring up again with overtraining! And aye, 2 minutes off my 10k PB is ambitious, but to put it into context, I have taken 1:40 off the 5k time since setting it. Admittedly 40 seconds of that was the weekend that immediately followed the 10k, but there's been a further full minute off since then. I feel like my training has been generally more 10k shaped than 5k too, but I guess Sunday will prove it one way or the other!
WJH - Nail on the head there I think. With no regular running partners and (still) no club sorted out yet, that Moragahan thread gives me a framework to work to, and this thread gives me the chance to get some feedback and motivation for the training and racing to slot into it. Nice spot with Sir Alex...though aren't Cardiff now the 'Redbirds' strictly speaking?
Good luck with your tempo tonight - 10 seconds below 10k would be approximately LT pace I think? I felt like I had some good gains in the weeks that followed the last couple of similar tempos that I ran, so sounds like a good 'un. Depending on the pace however (presumably 10k or quicker?) your intervals session next week meanwhile sounds like a biatch to me! 
Does 10s below mean slower or faster? 10s slower would be around LT, 10s faster would make for a really hard 4 miles!!
Indeed! I'm assuming WJH meant slower!
You've spoilt it for me there guys. I was in awe imagining 4 miles at 10 seonds per mile faster than 10k pace then!
I think i have got my head around most of this now enough to make a start, thanks to a currently low workload and a poor internet use policy
. Lots of reading around the topic. Now understand all the A, B and C race business as well!
Bob, my first 5km were at a 5:20min/km pace, and upped it a touch in the second 5km to about 5min/km. I didn't push myself too hard at the end (usually my downfall) and I would have been able to comfortably maintain conversation until the last 2km or so. Maybe I didn't use the word 'quality' in the sense it is usually meant on the site. I won't push myself too much tonight either, I just wanted to incorporate some interval training to keep things varied seeing as I'm trying to up the mileage. Thanks for the heads up though
Most definitely 10 seconds slower! Honest!
Bob - thanks for reminding me of that...the celebratory fireworks were largely red on Sunday evening too! I say no more! 
I would try to avoid anything but conversation paced running the day before a hard session. If you're out of breath but not into tempo areas then you're into the "junk miles" territory, described by Barnsley Runner (a MG legend!) as the miles that are too slow to be classed as quality work, but too fast to allow you to recover in time for your quality sessions. At the moment I'm deliberately shying away from certain groups at club on a Tuesday night, in case I get sucked into going too fast and then not getting the most out of my speed sessions on a Wednesday.
Briefly, my evening:
56.1 I reckon, no results yet. Went off too hard, felt like I was pushing too much after 200. Went through 300 in ~40.5 (54 400 pace) but really died in the final 100 and ended up having to lie down for a good 2 minutes afterwards. Just not race fit yet, bit of a disappointment but need to get the really hard sessions in yet before I am ready for a crack. Bit tired after work too I reckon. Onwards and upwards.