Howdy, Stranger!
Categories
Options
The Middle Ground
The materials in this website are in no way intended to replace the professional medical care, advice, diagnosis or treatment of a doctor, qualified personal trainer, therapist, dietitian or nutritionist Runners's World, Part of the Hearst UK well-being network © Copyright 2017
Comments
Thanks guys, looking forward to hopefully kicking on, though my wife seems to be deliberately making social plans to interfere
Bob- Your profile pic, is that one of the 'your race day ones'? How do you get rid of the watermark? or did you buy it?
I have started reading a book called 'the art of running faster', which i am sure some of you have come across. In terms of training, the author seems to advocate the use of fartlek quite strongly, however no one else on here mentions it, reference is always to tempo or interval. Is it a less effective system than the other two?
DT I read the Art of Running Faster. Some bits I liked, others not so much (I tend to like the bits that match my philosophy and ideas!) Goater doesn't really go into tempo runs I noticed, so maybe Fartlek is a way of hitting tempo paces in a less structured way?
NIce mileage Mr V. Good to see you running YD.
Alehouse well done on the LSR! Delamere is a nice parkrun. It's never going to be a PB course but I'm finding it really useful as a way of doing 3 miles at LT (or thereabouts).
Congrats Bob that's a superb effort to take two mins off your pb. Shaved twenty seconds off of my time as well! Its probably time for me to enter another 10km now so I can try and keep up haha. I took your advice in the end and didn't do intervals. Just had a light weekend and planning on a long one tonight. Got a route planned along the canal so going to see where it takes me and hopefully get 8 or 9 miles under my belt
I like a fartlek from time to time, especially in the week leading up to a big race where I tend to use them as an extended stride session with a couple or three extended efforts of say 0.5m at target pace in amongst the strides. This helps with familiarity of pacing and it serves to open the lungs up and get the HR up a bit without taking too much out.
On the injury comeback trail I may also use fartleks as I wont have any recent race data, so I wont be sure what threshold pace is etc, so running a longer fartlek to feel is a good way to get some quality in.
Good mileage Mr V. How did the 18 miler feel over the last few miles? I found it tough the first couple of times I went up to that kind of distance.
Agree with YD with regards fartlek running. I use it mainly in early base period or when returning from injury or illness. Basically anytime I want to get some faster work in without putting too much stress on the body.
YD – Yeah I did feel quite tired in the last couple of miles, though I kept the pace pretty easy so it wasn’t too bad. I haven’t done too many long runs since injury so I expected it to be relatively tough. Should be easier next time out though now it’s in the legs.
Mr V – they get easier quite quickly. I jumped up from 17 to 20 miles and found it tough, but after a 20 miler, the 16, 17 and 18 milers felt much much much more comfortable. Probably a mental thing for me, but running a 20 miler was like flicking an endurance switch, anything after that felt much more manegable.
Building up gradually like you are describing sounds like a much more sensible way of doing it though. Once you have a 20 miler under your belt it might be an idea to try a long run with some faster running in it. Maybe a 16 miler with the last 5 or 6 miles at MPish. Again, just to get a feel for adding quality to a long run so that when you do it for real in the Marathon campaign its not such a big shock.
YD - Yes that is pretty much the plan and similar to what I did during base training at the end of last year. At that time I ran a few extremely hilly 18 milers and they felt fine (probably equivalent to 20 on a flattish route). I also did a couple of 16 milers with a sub 40 10k tagged on the end. If I go into mara training in similar shape to that I’ll be happy.
You're just showing off now!
Thanks for the well dones.
Mr V - It was a fairly tough course, quite a lot of off road with some pretty tough hills. However it also had some nice downhill bits so wasn't all bad. The race is a very low key local one so does not attract the better club runners, hence why i finished 2nd! I am running the Hatfield Broad Oak 10K in a couple of weeks time which attracts about 1500 runners and is usually won in around 32/33 minutes so that will give me a good idea of my true pace. Would like to break my PB of 37:21 so will need to find about a minute from my time on Sunday.
When i was training for London marathon i found the 20 mile mark a bit of a mile stone and building up from 17 to 20 miles was mentally quite tough. Once i had got to 20 I then did a 22 and a 23 miler and neither of these were as tough mentally. One thing i wish i had done was do a few more fast finish long runs as i think that would really help at the end of the marathon.
Hello all! Mixed news in here, isn't it, and I have some more in a mo. But the big one for me is a big YEssssss! for BBB. Take a mo to think how far you've come. It's easier to appreciate a jump when it comes after a defined period of hard work but it's no less impressive when it comes as a result of week-on-week improvements! Good effort.
I'm back from Ethiopia, and back from the marathon. The former was great, the latter shocking - I'd been struggling with some knee pain, but also had been a bit lazy, never really tagging on with a group and doing some quality at altitude, so my runs had almost all started slow and got slower. Never really believed in the muscle memory thing, but it felt like it was working at the VLM - I slowed and slowed. Knew the pb wasn't happening when my mile time slipped in mile 5 for the same effort. The highlight was stopping for a pee at mile 14 - standing still in a cubicle was so lovely I nearly stayed there! At that point, as you might guess, my racing head had well and truly gone. Having started in the good for age area I'd had a lovely build up but, of course, piles of people came past me as I slowed! As the 3:30 pacers started to disappear with 1km to go I had a word with myself and my legs decided they weren't so bad and I looked a twit with a galloping finish, slipping in under 3:29.
Which is alright in the grand scheme of things, but a big come down from last year, and being passed throughout a race is mentally tough. I'd walked a fair bit, so recovered quite quickly and ran on the Tuesday. Never done that before, and there was certainly some machismo in my taking it on, but I ended up doing a fair tempo run then and Thursday. Some good training since and some hard parkruns meant I went to the Sutton 10k yesterday hoping that an 18:4x parkrun might translate to 38:xx; saw 9k at 34:15, so 3:45 for 38 mins. I managed to bash out the final k for a really pleasing 37:57. Very very pleased with that - only 40 seconds or so off my best.
I'm hoping that the altitude gave me a base and I'm now turning that to some pace with quality sessions. Lovely to feel 'back'.
Mr V, I don't think their schedules are all that bad and I know a lot of people like them. I haven't read the book in full for a while, so apologies if I misunderstand something that is covered in the text, but looking at their Marathon Training Schedule C (greater than 60 miles a week) from the Road Racing for Serious Runners book, I have the following criticisms
1) I don't like their basic speed sessions. For one thing the reps/sets are too high for them to work true basic speed. Also there are only 5 of them across the 17 weeks, and they are quite spread out, so there is not much reinforcement. I understand they're included to maintain speed for shorter distance races rather than to specifically help one's marathon target.
I think it would be far better to add 8-10 form strides near the start of one or more easy runs. These will help maintain speed, but will also provide time to think about technique and work on form.
2) Their VO2 max workouts are too slow (e.g. 6 x 1k @ 8k-10k race pace) and there are not enough of them. I don't think there's anything wrong with 10k pace workouts, especially for a marathon runner, but it would be nice to see some 5k and faster stuff early in on the schedule to try and get VO2 max up before shifting focus to endurance/threshold training
3) I think the long run / medium long run pattern every single week is too repetitive.
4) The lactate threshold runs are not long enough. I think there is a lot to be said for combining a medium long run and a lactate threshold run. E.g. 2 miles easy; 3 miles @ LT; 3 miles easy; 2 miles @ LT; 3 miles easy. That's 13 miles covered with some good quality running in. This type of session could replace a few of the long runs.
5) There are no MP runs. When the goal is to run 26.2 miles at a certain pace/intensity it seems ridiculous not to practise this pace/intensity at all in training. A couple of 16-17 milers with 10 @ MP would be a good replacement for a long run. And shorter MP sections could be included in easy runs when feeling good.
I much prefer Daniels' marathon schedules.
Mr V - when do you start your marathon training? When I'm not marathon training I keep my long run around 16 miles, moving it up to a couple of 18s in the last few weeks then I'm ready to go straight into 20s. I did 9 this time round and of those I only did 2 with MP miles in them. In fact I didn't do much MP work at all and most was incorporated into shorter runs.
Simon, Saucony Grid Type A5 might be worth having a look at. It's got less on the sole than the Hyperspeed but a comfortable and light shoe.
The holes on the bottom of the Hyperspeeds are strange, really not sure what they were going for at all.
I'm very guilty of not doing enough of #5 on your list. I have good cadence, but dropping it a touch and really trying to get more out of each stride will be of benefit.
YD, similar to what Simon's suggested looking at 200s/100s at 1500/800 pace in the form of aerobic power/VO2 max sessions works well. 2*8*200 @ 1500 (200 jog rec) or 10-12*100 @ 800 pace (100j rec) are nice little sessions that help you develop aerobically and improve speed without being too stressful.
Regarding speed, Simon's list is good but I'd be tempted to approach is slightly differently, using weights as a supplementary workout and focusing on the actual act of running fast first. Uphill sprints are good to begin with (e.g. 6*8s w/5-6 min rec) up a steady hill (too steep will impact on form a lot).
Downhill sprints are good for overspeed training, but the injury risk is high so do them last!
The big thing to remember is that to improve max speed, you must run at max speed. Simple but you can play around with that like you would for improving VO2 max, for instance. Skill sprints (a specific distance split up into various %ages of max speed), fly ins (maximal sprinting that you run into at a decent clip to minimise acceleration), in outs (e.g. 150m, split up into hard stride/max sprint/ease down), accelerations (100m where you start slowish and increase speed until the final 20-30m are flat out).... plenty of options.
Lots of 10k racing going on! Nicely done everyone.
Mr V, good to hear some feedback on the 4. They've changed the cushioning from the Progrid to the Powergrid (which I really dislike as it wrecked the Triumph series) which does seem to have given it a harder sole. Very good week's worth of training there.
TOM (luckiest bastard on RW) - nice to see you back, shame the marathon didn't go to plan but what a base to build on.
My results are in from Thursday, ran 56.64 which isn't too bad but not what training pointed to of course. Just a case of setting off way too fast. Still think I am in very good shape and just got my pacing wrong. Need to reign in the first 100 a little bit and cruise the back straight more.
Didn't get a chance to get to the track Sunday, didn't get a chance to do anything in fact yesterday. Did 3*150 w/11'00 rec this morning - 19.7, 19.5, 19.3 which was really good. Me & cs are in Paris Sunday - Thursday, so planning on really nailing a hard week's training then taking it very easy next week to recover.
I'm entered into Aberdeen's Union Street Mile on June 8th. Very high standard so I'm really hopeful I can dip well into the 4'xx range.
Simon - Advanced Marathoning is the P&D book most people are referring to not Road Racing for Serious Runners.
The second edition has a 12 week and 18 week schedules for up to 55 miles per week, 55-70 miles, 70-85 miles and more than 85 miles.
The 18 week 55 - 70 miles per week schedules have the following:
6 x Lactate threshold runs (between 15k and HM pace) starting at 4 mile and up to 7 miles
4 x MP runs starting with 16m w/ 8m@MP up to 18m w/ 14m @ MP
6 x VO2 Max sessions from 6 x 800m@5k to 3 x 1600m@5k
3 x tune up races 2 between 8k and 15k and one in taper between 8k and 10k
Strides most weeks, between 6-10 x 100m usually as part of a 6 - 8m run. Loads of Medium long runs (11m - 16m) sometimes 2 in a week.
4 long runs of 20+ miles, 6 x 17m - 18m long runs (including some MP runs listed above)
My criticism of P&D is there should be more longer runs of 20 mile and more, there is only one 22 miler, I would like two or three runs of over 22 miles.
I would also drop a couple of Vo2 max sessions and add in a couple more MP tempos, maybe as part of some of the existing MLR’s.
Overall I think they are good schedules that get the runners doing decent mileage that is well balanced with a good mix of quality. My thinking is P&D is a good place to start from but would probably end up adjusting as I went along. Though I agree Daniels’ Marathon schedules also look good, with some better LT/tempo sessions than the P&D sessions.
Thanks Duck, I am putting together a bit of a schedule based on some of the suggestions you and Simon made. I will post up when I am clear on what I plan on doing.
Enjoy Paris, if you do the place justice you should come back about 8 pounds heavier
4.7 miles @ 7:18/m for me tonight, with a 45 minute Pilates class sandwiched in the middle. I just ran to feel and that pace came out, it will drop once I start to add in more miles. Still some mild aching from my left hip flexor but ok to run on, it was fine during the Pilates class.
First ten miler today. Cruised first 6 miles and found I was running into the wind last few miles, and really felt the lactic acid build up last 2km but all in all very happy. Stuck to McMillan's recommended pace too which was as hard as the run itself!
So 10 miles in 1:23:50 at an (almost) conversational pace sets me in good stead for a half marathon. Still not sure how adventurous I should be when setting the target for the half marathon. I guess I'll see how the next couple of months go and reassess then.
TOM - good to see you back, shame about VLM, but excellent work on the strong 10k, good recoveries powers as well. I would think that 10k pb will take some damage one you get some specific work in the legs.
Tom K - good work on the 10 miler. You shouldn't be getting lactic build up at conversational pace, what pace band were you running at?
YD: Duck come back from Paris 8 pounds heavier...they use euros. Don't do what I did and try to visit the Ritz: it is currently being refurbished. Settle for the Hotel Bristol where the Beckhams have the whole of the top floor at 15,000 euros a night. Plus food.
Re the long runs for marathons I tend to agree that the 22-23 milers give that "miles in the legs" feeling and confidence. Sometimes people get too hung up by the distance as well: 3 hours on the fells works wonders, for less miles!
Fartlek: I am an advocate, particularly when recovering from injury, or a step when building towards more structured speed work. It, too, is good for both confidence and enjoyment: and the latter is what is all really about!
BBB: either I missed your Leicester references, or more likely I am beginning to suffer from the forgetfulness that afflicts we older people! Saturdays were either 2.30 at the Tigers or 3.00 at Filbert Street...or Grace Road in the summer. Have you ever run at Bradgate Park: perfect running territory?! We used to hold county cross country training there. Tough but fun, and I still run there whenever I visit my mother who now lives in Groby.
CB: a real long run today! 26 minutes, albeit with a stretch break after 18.
Y D: it was only the last couple of miles. Legs just felt a bit heavy, but thats probably due to the fact its the first time I've done 10m and there was a few hills and bridges to cross etc.
Macmillan puts my long run pace at 5:20, and I sat around 5:15-5:20 for the majority of the run, and the last couple were 5:23, 5:25 and 5:26 so tailed off a touch. I didn't cramp up during or after, I think it was just that my legs got tired, because as I said, its the first time I've ran that distance, and I'd already walked 5miles to and from uni during the day. But apart from feeling a bit tired, legs feel absolutely fine now. Sound okay?
I've typed my message so slowly YD has already replied re P&D but I'll leave my bit in anyway as I can't be bothere to delete...
Simon - Thanks for your feedback. The schedule me and YD have been looking at looks a bit different to that. Perhaps they've ammended it in the newer book. They now have regular sessions of 8x100 strides, the VO2 max pace is all at 5k pace, LT sessions go up to 7 miles and there are definitely MP runs included. We have added some tweaks though. The order they go for is endurance, LT and then VO2 max - though you seem to favour doing VO2 max work first?
Minni - The 29th July is 12 weeks out so officially then. However I'll do some transitional stuff throughout July so I'll be in marathon head space from then on. Interesting that you didn't do much MP work. Do you think the key to your success this time was the volume of those 20 plus milers?
TOM - You sounds back in the groove. PB time soon i think.
Minutes per mile please Tom!!! As it was you first time over 10 miles absolutely you should feel tired towards the end. Good work.
Alehouse - didn’t think teachers were that well paid? The Hotel Bristol sounds nice
Mr V - I think the key to my success this year was down to 2 years build up! There was nothing special this year, no PBs to speak of, no increased speed in sessions etc but I was sure I was in pb shape.
I did the same 9 x 20+ last year for 3:20 but then ran 3:25 off only 1 x 18, 1 x 20 and 1 x 21 in the Autumn at the Town Moor.
I think the essential thing is to feel comfortable on those long runs and make sure you get them banked. I nearly always finish with a faster few miles, just because I start the the draw of home. So my long runs would average about 8:30 but would start nearer 9 and end sub 8. The long MP miles in long runs, to my understanding, are not so much to prove you can but to show if you can't. So if you struggle with 10 @ MP after a 10m warm up then maybe MP is a tad too fast.
Sorry Y D. I have a habit of switching! Miles averaged around 8:30ish and last two were 8:41 and 8:45
TOM, I was at the Nonsuch 10k on Sunday (observing, not running) - I was too busy trying to photograph clubmates too see anybody else. Did you get caught up with those dogs at 1k? Well done on your result.
YD, it sounds like they've sorted out the schedules quite a bit.
Mr V, MP is going to be limited by lactate threshold, which in turn is going to be limited by VO2 max, so one of the ideas behind doing VO2 stuff first is to raise it so that your lactate threshold has more room to shift up. I'm not completely convinced by this argument. Rather than shifting up independently, I think VO2 pulls up other limits below it - as though you have an elastic band with various intensities marked on it lying next to a ruler with paces marked on it. Stretching the band at the VO2 mark causes all the intensities below to be stretched as well.
As an example, my LT has improved by about 6-7 seconds/mile in the last month of VO2 training - and I did no LT work during this time.
P&D seem to work on a progression of more intense work. However, my personal experience is that you'll get gains from VO2 max training regardless of when you do it, and the gains will not be limited by previous work. With that in mind, I'd prefer to get VO2 done and out the way before concentrating on intensities and sessions that that are more important for the marathon
Thanks for the shoe suggestion, Duck. They look very similar to the Kinvaras.
Tom K, you'll definitely feel tired the first time you tackle a new distance. It'll feel a lot easier next time though.
Yeah, guessed you must have missed my previous post on the subject!
I was waxing lyrical as I recall about happy winter Saturdays (2.30 or 3.00 ko as you say) at either Filbert Street (Lineker, Alan Smith, Mark Wallington, Stevie Lynex, Keith Weller, etc) or Welford Road (Dusty Hare, Les Cusworth, Clive Woodward, Paul Dodge et al) and sunny summer afternoons at Grace Road watching the likes of Nigel Briers, Chris Balderstone, Gordon Parsons, Aggers, Brian Davison and my favourite of the lot David Gower - the simple pleasure of watching the latter bat are some of my favourite childhood memories. Think I also mentioned seeing Brian Davison take John Traicos for 39 off an over in a World Cup warm up match in 1983. 6 x 6s including a no ball, and 3 off the 7th ball of the over! And the below was my first game at Filbert Street as a 7yo - a 3-0 FA Cup win over 1st Division Norwich (City were struggling in Div 2) and in my mind's eye I can still see Weller's white tights illuminated by the floodlights in the 2nd half as they flashed by us at eye level from our spot low in the East Stand - opposite the camera. Happy days! 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK7VVqWEA_Y
And no, I've not run in Bradgate Park, but spent countless hours there as a kid with my Dad and grandparents leaping off walls, watching deer and climbing up to Old John. Although we now live in Notts, took the family down there a while back for old time's sake and will do it again - might take my running gear next time - I need to get some more hill work in - good idea! I nearly did a 10k just down the road in April actually - the Beacon Hill Bunny Run - another spot I spent hours and hours at as a kid.
Right - back to 'business' as it were after that Alehouse inspired trip down Memory Lane!
Thanks for the further congrats on Sunday's run, all - and yes, T'Other Man - definitely taking pleasure from the progress I'm making - it is a fair old way I've come in just under 6 months, particularly for an old fart - cheers. Enjoying the journey, and have some increasingly clear ideas of where I want to get to, and how I'm going to get there as well, so whilst it can't continue at the same rate, hoepfully there's plenty more to come in time.
Mr V - Will see what I can do with the PBs! Was looking back yesterday in fact and from 16 (13 x parkrun, 3 x 10k) timed runs so far, effectively only 4 of them haven't been PBs. One was the first run back after a chest infection, another was across sheet ice, a third was a hilly 10k, and even the fourth I can probably put down to a near doubling of mileage over the previous 2 or 3 weeks! Think you'll be pulling some PBs back out of your own accord anyway in the coming weeks/months looking at that mileage you're back up to again - good to see.
DT19 - Managed to trim one of the low quality samples down for my profile pic - the watermark was helpfully just below my waist on the one I've used on here!
Tom K - Sounds sensible - right decision I reckon. And yes, get yourself down for another 10k when you can - did you ever get round to tackling a parkrun BTW?
Fartleks - As per some of the previous comments here, I used them a little as I built up my easy mileage earlier in the year, but other than for (too infrequent) hillwork, I don't really use them at the moment. I'm a stats geek, so like to have comparable runs (tempos, intervals, etc) to study after the event and measure progress - something you can't really do with a fartlek.
T'Other Man - Other than the mara, all sounds very positive stuff for you. Cracking run on Sunday - and some further rewards to be reaped from that altitude training I'm sure.
Duck - Enjoy Paris, and I'm sure it's all going to come together in a race for you very soon with all the great training you're putting in.
Got the trails back out, and took myself off to the local playing field for a gentle recovery run on grass last night. Legs felt surprisingly fresh considering and had to simmer myself down to 8:45 pace after realising I'd set off at about 7:55. I wonder whether sub-consciously I didn't actually give it everything on Sunday after the recent shin issues? Anyway, 3 lots of icing of the shin on Sunday, and another after I got back last night, seems to be keeping any recurring flare up at bay at least for now which is good news. Also had an unexpected cricketing call up to the 1st XI on Saturday. Effectively the third level of the club cricket pyramid in the County, and one that I had some success at for another club back in 2009-10 when I averaged 35+ across a full calendar year at one stage. Could be an interesting test, and a subtle shift, of my priorities if I can get a score on Saturday and re-establish myself at that level.
Thanks Simon. I guessed that would be the case.
No I didn't Bob. I had one penned in, but I woke up bright and early to find a couple of inches of snow on the ground. I will get one done when I get a chance, seems a bit silly I've got a 10km time, but not a 5km time! I'm moving from Loughborough to Leeds in six weeks and I'm sure there will be park runs to do up there. I probably need to do a bit of speed work from now until then otherwise I'll probably just end up with a mediocre time which is only a few seconds faster than half my 10km time.
Great news with the cricket. Averaging over 35 at any level is impressive. Will be interesting to see how to deal with keeping up mileage if you get back into a routine of playing on a weekly basis
The plan for Paris is to get drunk most days and eat lots of cheese (Curly, recommendations please). And Eurodisney. Going to come back very fat.
Simon, check the Brooks T7 as well, pretty lightweight. Not too expensive either IIRC.
Bob, I fully admit to knowing next to nothing about Cricket, but 35 for an innings, compared to what the Pros do sounds pretty good!
Back to back track sessions here - not ideal I know but given next week won't be much at all, I'm trying for quite a tiring week then fully recovering the next. 3*400 w/11'00 rec - 59.3/57.4/58.7 - very tired by the end! Felt strong though. I think I'd be happy splitting 61/62 for a first lap right now and it not feeling too difficult.
Bob, I always find my easy pace has picked up the day after a race. I think it's just because I'm tuned in to a faster pace.
I like the look of the T7s, Duck. £35 on Amazon for the yellow ones or £47 for the blue ones and £85 for the red.
I don't think back-to-back sessions are a problem occasionally, especially if they have a different focus. I look forward to seeing your 800 time off your recent training. I've got my first this Saturday since out August smackdown and seeing as I've done no LT work yet, but have improved endurance and speed I don't know what to expect.
Seeing all you lot doing speed track sessions is making me think I'm missing out. It's annoying because I could potentially use the facilities that team GB used in the build up to the Olympics but can't because I'm not a member of the Athletics Union
YD, you are quite right, teachers are not that well paid...good job I was in Paris with a couple of very generous doctors!
Meant to say, my pic (which incidentally I still can't change as it comes up with an error message) is a reminder of breaking my shoulder. Can't remember whether it is a pic from the first time r the second, though!!
BBB: I have a picture of Old John on the wall in front of me, painted by my mother.