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Pirate Mentors / Mentorees 2011
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Completely disagree - you dont build endurance on top of speed! Build endurance first with long slow rides, gradually building up the distance. Then in the build phase of training you can incorporate some higher intensity efforts into longer rides, and seperate rides at a higher(speed building) intensity.
It takes time and patience to build endurance, speed will disappear as quickly as it comes and should only start to be introduced into the end of the build phase and preparation phase.
Hmmmm - I've not witnessed many people over training - I think Cartman was the only person that was riding the edge, never quite falling into the abyss but teetering so he never really delivered what his potential is.
Over training is not cured by a couple of days off. That's over-reaching or just being knackard and that's not a bad thing. I know that the first time I hit 20 hours, I was down to 7.5 the next week but I think it did me good. Since then I've done more than that in 3 days and once the full amount in a race but I've never been close to being over trained, not by a very very long shot.
I've seen people on here do over 40 hours in 5 days and consistently knock out 18+ hr weeks straight afterwards.
Over-reaching and getting injured, over reaching and getting tired and just plain getting fk'd off with doing 6 hour bike rides isn't the same, its just human nature.
As for junk miles, is there such a thing? Top marathon runners bimble round at 8 m/m - is that junk. There's load via volume and load via stress and combining these in the best and most efficient way is what you pay a top coach to do.
I do totally agree that if you run / bike / swim slowly then you'll race slowly. You can't race quicker than your long bike ride pace - a tough 60 min turbo wont naturally translate into a 20mph IM bike ride if you do your Sunday cycle at 16mph.
Anyhoo - I agree with what people are saying, I just think that "over training" is banded around when people mean tired or lacking motivation.
p.s. you're supposed to be tired.
There is one other!!!!!
I agree about the tired bit, if you are training right you will feel fcuked at the end of your three week block, thats why you schedule a recovery week, which has already been mentioned.
The old reverse periodisation debate.
I think you need to smash yourself in all disciplines now and again, in fact pretty often. As already said, running is the least forgiving in this regard but don't be afraid to knock out a hard 5K just because you're doing a IM.
Certainly in the pool, you need to work hard to improve and way too many see swimming as a chore that needs to be ticked off and just swim back and forth until they hit their target, 2K or whatever. Now that's a (near) total waste of pool time.
Thumbs up for the for the "more is more" training plan
I also don't agree that you have to feel fucked at the end of a three week training block. Depending on what you mean by fucked. Yes, fatigue will accumulate. But most of us are not full time athletes - personally, I can't afford to be that knackered as I have to go to work (not that you'd know it today
)
I've been doing 5 days recovery out of 21 rather than 7 days out of 21. I find this works really well for me. It's also good for people with full-time jobs that want to make the most of the weekends - instead of missing the training opportunity afforded by a weekend once every 4 weeks the recovery period is a bit more frequent.
10ft - yes, the reverse periodisation takes it a bit further but I think a lot of people that do not class themselves as adherents would include higher intensity work in various guises over winter.
I agree with what you say about swimming (i'm gulity of treating as a recovery session too often). I bet those with a swimming background who take up triathlon would do loads too much high intensity training. Swimmers generally do maximum efforts every single training session.
" you dont build endurance on top of speed"
just to demonstrate that whether this is true or not depends on the scale at which you are thinking:
-how does that statement relate to the advice you gave deb just the other day about improving her marathon? "a bit of free advice the, to get quicker at the longer stuff you need to run shorter stuff quicker"
-i think the most succesful marathoners have had very good track careers and the best ironman athletes have often had good short course careers (Chrissie Wellington is unusual). there are still ironman competitors that haven't (it's a relatively new sport) but that does seem to be changing
Have we sufficiently threadjacked this?
Good - "as you were" to coin a phrase.
Pick your mentor carefully and be assured that everyone else thinks they're talking shite
Edit - misplaced "
What, apart from the fact that unless you are already a good swimmer and runner and can maintain that, it is wrong!!
Echoing Rosies comment earlier, this thread really has just turned into a debate on training and is probably quite off putting to newbies and those who are unsure of all the science and just want to improve their performance. Maybe a new thread is required with a proviso that people just use it to hook up or advertise their needs/offers!
My advice to Deb the other day was about building speed endurance through mile reps, K reps and strength through hill reps. She has spent years building a big endurance base and is probably one of those guilty of on pace training. She is not a novice either.
Even those moving from short to long distance events will have a massive base to start with, elite 5/10 runners will be running in excess of 100 miles per week, and not all of this can be done at hard intensity or without a high endurance level!
In simple terms, if you are building a house, you wouldnt start with the roof, you would put the foundations in first. Endurance is the foundation for any athlete, speed being the roof.
The coach presumably puts together the training schedule that includes those 8m/m runs, and has them for a reason at that particular part of the cycle, so no, they're not junk miles. I suspect though, that if their runners were more time-constrained these would be the first sessions to get canned.
True for a 4mph difference, but I find that cycling & running my race pace is marginally quicker than I can reach in training, for similar effort.
I love it when we all passionately argue the exact same thing.......
Which is -
Doozer - I do wonder if what you would actually give a novice for training would look much different to what I would. I don't know whether you are really understanding what I am saying. I would not disagree with your house building analogy. However, building endurance does not mean just do loads of long slow volume and nothing else.
Andrew- yes, it maybe. I'm sorry we've gone so off topic but that's the nature of forums. However, if a bit of discussion about other things is enough to put someone off or cause serious anxiety then how will they cope with an IM? Plenty of room for self-doubt duriing the IM mara!
True for a 4mph difference, but I find that cycling & running my race pace is marginally quicker than I can reach in training, for similar effort.
That's called tapering but you don't beat any records on race day for individual sessions, maybe collectively.
but could add one
swimming, biking and running are not the same.
As I was
cheers guys
Bottom line is surely if you want specific plans hire a coach. If you want support, advice, shoulder to cry on get a mentor.
Sorry about that, back to periodisation if you please........