RW Forum Six - Sub 3:30

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  • Which 52m did you do Lake?   Which schedule are you following at the moment?  I'm sure you can easily move into the P&D.

    DD 15 mile off road tomorrow, 12 mile fell race next weekend, half marathon the next.  Sorted. 

    Is anyone using heart rate to train? I tried and liked looking at the data but couldn't find my max heart rate so it didn't make much sense! 

  • Managed a wet + windy 13 miles at 9:07 m/m early this morn, so far shins are fine with the compression sox. Only managed 30 miles this week, as no exercise for me tomorrow.

    Lake - your dental experience sounds like a right nightmare! Thankfully i only had the 1 tooth taken out, he had to give me 4 injections, they were horrible! No stiches tho, drugged up now, so not painful at the mo!

    I'm with you, going to gradually add the extra miles from P&D to my runner's world schedule, i especially like their progressive marathon pace long runs - not really tried these before, hoping they'll make a difference!

    Minni - i was worried i'd have heavy legs after spin last night, but they were out. I've never used a heart rate monitor, too technical for me!
  • Morning

    Minni: Sounds like a plan!

    Lake: I've done two Oceans a couple of times, The Ridgeway 87mile ultra (well it was 93 for me I got lost!). As previously mentioned 4 Comrades but nothing else very exotic.  Comrades is quite simply teh greatest foot race in the world, where else do you get History, a great course, fantastic support, cut offs, diiferent grades of medals and 20,000 people running a 56 mile race? If there is one ultra you must do in your life Comrades is it. IMHO Boston is pretty well the best marathon in the world for lots of the same reasons.

    Training by HR, I did try one season a few years ago, but got so bored keeping my heart rate down to a level that I gave up after 3 months. I do however run by HR sometimes in races as I know in marathons that if I get above 85% MHR I will struggle to maintain a pace. There are numerous web articles telling you how to find your MHR, but this way comes out the pretty much the same as my observed MHR

    To determine your maximum heart rate you could use the following, which combines the Miller formula with the research from Londeree and Moeschberger.

    • Use the Miller formula of MHR=217 - (0.85 × age) to calculate MHR
    • Subtract 3 beats for elite athletes under 30
    • Add 2 beats for 50 year old elite athletes
    • Add 4 beats for 55+ year old elite athletes
    • Use this MHR value for running training
    • Subtract 3 beats for rowing training
    • Subtract 5 beats for bicycle training
  • My off road run this morning was hard.  Biting wind and ice lower down then snow as we climbed.  16.1 miles with 3464ft of ascent, average pace 11.51 m/m.  I only managed to get the pace to that by adding a couple of road miles at the end!  The fastest mile was 9.08 and the slowest was 17.11 !!!

    DD How do you train for your ultras?  Do you follow a set schedule?

  • Well done Minni that sounds like one tough run, thankfully Dubai is fairly flat!

    Training for ultras, well like most experienced runners that I know I'm not big on schedules, I have a pretty good idea of what weekly mileage will get me ready for a distance, likewise I always include speed work, tempo and / or hills plus a long run. Though with Ultras its rather dependent on how long they are, I'm not good enough to race beyond 100K, so once I get onto the silly stuff its just miles / miles and miles with no speed work. For a short ultra like Two oceans its marathon training with a slightly longer long runs, for Comrades you get up to 40 mile long runs but still with some speed work.

    When I do follow schedules is between multiple marathons as P & D have the only schedules I know of for 12/10/8/6 weeks between marathons and they ensure that I don't overdo it, of course their not much use once you get down to days between marathons.

  • Sounds like a good run Minni. Have you got anywhere flatter you can go later in the training so you can do the progressive runs?

    Tough one for me today. 3 miles warm up (8:51), 2 miles steady state (8:19), 3 miles HM pace (7:20), 3 mins rec, 3 miles HM pace (7:23) 1 mile cool down (8:54).

    Pleased enough with that and am thinking about setting off at 7:30/ 7:35 pace at Brass Monkey and seeing how that goes.

  • Sounds tough CG. How long is Brass Monkey?

    16.5 slooow for me today.
  • Hi Minni

    I used HR when training using the P&D plan in the Autumn. I had to find my max by doing some intervals though as it's quite a bit higher than the age formulas would suggest.

    I found it useful as it helped me slow down my long/easy runs as I'd been doing most of them too quickly, and consequently train more consistently with higher mileage. If you're able to get the effort level right without a HR monitor then there's probably less benefit.

  • CG: Nice structured run, a real confidence booster pre race for you. Go for it assuming that Brass Monkey isn't some sort of masochistic mud fest

    BecsA: i think you are spot on with HR monitors making it so much easier to gauge the correct pace for LSR, I don't have the patience most of the time. Their also a great tool when racing if you are above 85% MHR in a marathon before 20 miles your probably going to slow down, doesn't really matter what you get to for the last six but I seem to creep up to 90 -92% MHR.

  • DD-  the ultra I did was  just a local 'Kent Challenge' one, but very enjoyable.  I can only aspire to do something like Comrades in the future.

    Minni - I'm just using a combination of the RW schedule, plus what's worked for me in the past (i.e. made it up), but I think i'll include some influences from P&D just because it all seems to make sense, even if I can't get the speeds yet.

    I've used HR training in the past, more to slow down my long runs than anything else.  Like others, I got bored of wearing the strap and the variation in the heart rate..but I still dust it off every so often.  I got my max from  a 10k I did (189bpm) and have never got close to it since.  Shame.

    !5m LSR for me this morning, found it quite tough....a combination of eating too late last night (after 9pm) and not enough fuel this morning (always used to have porridge, but the cupboard was bare apart from Shreddies).  Lesson learnt, must try harder.

  • Well done everyone on your LSRs this weekend.

     A big fat zero miles run all week for me . Going to try and have a run on my treadmill tomorrow and see how my chest bears up. The cough is just awful though and am thinking a trip tp the doctors may be on the cards soon image

  • Get well soon AA
  • BecsA wrote (see)

    Hi Minni

    I used HR when training using the P&D plan in the Autumn. I had to find my max by doing some intervals though as it's quite a bit higher than the age formulas would suggest.I found it useful as it helped me slow down my long/easy runs as I'd been doing most of them too quickly, and consequently train more consistently with higher mileage. If you're able to get the effort level right without a HR monitor then there's probably less benefit.

    Hi BecsA!  BecsA and others - I've tried to sort my HR out so I could use it for this training but I just could't find my max. By formulas is seems it should be around 179 however, when I tried I could only get it to about 172 at the most.  But, quite a few times my data would show at the end of a run that I had hit up to 194 during a session.  These were usually achieved when I was running a particularly fast bit of a training run.  I doubt whether these were correct readings and just got fed up trying!  My average HR for my recent marathon was 157 with the mas being 168 reached in the final full mile. 

    AA I hope you feel better soon.  A trip to the Dr might be worth it...?

     I'm posting a couple of photos from my run this morning....


    /members/images/46278/Gallery/Yeavering-bell-3.jpg

    On the top of a hill fort.

    /members/images/46278/Gallery/Yeavering-bell-2.jpg
     
    Descending off one hill before climbing up another.  Just before the blizzard started....
    /members/images/46278/Gallery/Yeavering-bell-1_0.jpg



  • Mr Spoons,  That is the third time you've posted while I've been typing!  We must have our computer shifts at the same time!
  • Hi Minni, I guess so!

    Great pics image Where were you?

    And why is he wearing shorts ?!!!
  • This is my back garden, Cheviot hills, Northumberland.  He always wears shorts - insane!
  • Minni wrote (see)

    Hi BecsA!  BecsA and others - I've tried to sort my HR out so I could use it for this training but I just could't find my max. By formulas is seems it should be around 179 however, when I tried I could only get it to about 172 at the most.  But, quite a few times my data would show at the end of a run that I had hit up to 194 during a session.  These were usually achieved when I was running a particularly fast bit of a training run.  I doubt whether these were correct readings and just got fed up trying!  My average HR for my recent marathon was 157 with the mas being 168 reached in the final full mile. 

    AA I hope you feel better soon.  A trip to the Dr might be worth it...?

    I did the 2x 3 mins max effort to try to find my max HR. That gave me about 195, but I thought it was probably a bit higher so used 200 to calculate the zones to train in as I wasn't too worried if they were a bit out. Redoing the test recently I got 197 so think that's about right.

    I also get occasional v high readings in sessions. Usually means that the HR strap has been moving around. They still annoy me, but after using the HR monitor for a bit I've got a better idea of when to trust the watch and when it's probably playing up.

    AA I've got the same thing and it's very frustrating. I'm trying to rest until I'm over it. Hope you get better soon. 

  • Minni; Your training partner is clearly nuts wearing shorts in those conditions, nice place to run though. I used to run on Dartmoor looks very similar if not so cold.

    AA: Get well before you run, I ran a marathon a couple of years ago with what i thought was a mild cold, turned out I had pneumonia, and there was me wondering why I had run 3-40 when I thought I was in 3-30 shape. In the week after I thought I was going to die, so moral is don't chance it.

    Lake: Put Comrades on your to do list.

    I have a club 8 mile run tonight which is always fast, hours swim at lunchtime.

  • It looks very bleak on those pics but the area is really quite pretty. 

    DD   Is your swim in the pool or open water?  I've been having front lessons but have had to put them on hold until this marathon training is out the way. Its a 55 mile round trip to the pool and can't really justify the time at the moment.  I'll be glad when the nights get a bit lighter and I can get back out on the bike too.  

    Comrades looks brilliant - has that been your favourite event to date?

    My favourite and least favourite event is the same one!  Its a mountain marathon type (but only 25 miles I think) which takes in 11 peaks of over 2000ft.  I've done it twice and each time I've thought I've been going to die en route only to finish on a high and in tears both times!  The last time I did it I was bordering on hypothermia and if it hadn't been for my team mates recognising the signs I think I would have curled up and died!  

  • Minni: Weekdays I swim in the pool, its downstairs from my office! Weekends I swim in the sea, this is one of the advantages of living in Dubai. Do you have triathlon aspirations as well? I switched over a) because I had been thinking about it for a long time. b) I started cycling seriously during the first 3 months of 2010 whilst I was out with a torn calf muscle c) I'm getting too old for the constant impact of running.  I enjoy the mixture and feel a lot less tired training more hours than when I just ran.

    Favourite races have been Comrades & Boston, greatest achievement Ridgeway. I also love Beachy Head marathon.  I think that our favourite events are often the toughest, its the sense of achievement that makes them so memorable,

  • Lovely photos, Minni. Well done.

    I tried a run on the treadmill this morning and managed 3 miles image chest felt like it was in a vice, I was sweating profusely and was running really slowly, and my legs were dead. So I gave up and did some core work instead. But I am finding it so frustrating now - I was doing really well over Christmas and New Year.

    Hope you get better soon too Becs

  • I want to do an Ironman some day but not sure if I'll ever master the swimming!  I've been part of a duathlon team for the past two years on an event around Lochness.  Run a leg and cycle a leg.  I'm thinking about entering to do the whole thing solo this year.  That would be run 25 miles, a mixture of on and off road, followed by about 50 on the bike, which is mostly road. 
  • AA Are you taking night nurse?  I swear by it - even when I'm feeling ok!  Just remember your fitness is still there and once you're well again you'll be straight back into it.
  • AA: Take it easy until you feel Ok, it really isn't worth making in worse, you won't lose that much fitness, i rane my first sub 3-30 marathon 7 weeks after being given the all clear for Pneumonia, the rest might have even helped me, the Dr told me to return to training as if I hadn't trained for 1 year, so I ran a 1/2 Marathon the next week!

    Minni: Everyone can master swimming its all technique and practice, a coach is essential, I have a olympic tri on Friday on the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix circuit, should be good other than I have to rack my bike 3 hours before the start, I hate waiting around. Give the duathlon a go its not going to do you any harm ( be careful with asking me this sort of question as I will race almost anything!).

  • Minni - why do you take Night Nurse "even when you're OK"? Do you like the taste?
  • I was on night nurse all last week. I love it - it's like a drug image Hope i can get straight back into it soon, I really feel like I'm slipping behind.
  • Awesome photos Mini, would be great to do off road runs like that, you're very lucky!

    Just back fron an easy 4 miles at 9 min miling. Any opinions on pace of recovery runs? Usually i don't bother to wear my watch, noticed the runners world schedule online says you should do easy Monday runs at 8:45 m/m - do recovery miles turn into junk miles if run too slowly?
  • Recovery runs are slow enough that at the end you should feel warned up but LESS tired than before you started, hence the terrm recovery. Nearly everyone runs them too fast. If you run them too fast they become junk miles because they serve no real training purpose and they tire you out so other runs in the week are less effective.
  • Recovery runs ... mine have been very slow, between 9.30 and 10.30 m/m.  They didn't used to be that slow but I'm learning that they should not interfere with the important sessions.  By running them so slow I am totally ready for a harder session the next day.

    Kiwi - I know I am lucky but sometimes (actually quite often)  yearn for a long flat road!  

    Watched my son in his area x-country today.  He didn't qualify for the next stage and had a nasty fall on the ice but finished happy in the first half of the field.  Proud mum! 

  • Oh, and night nurse.... there's nothing like a swig if you're having trouble sleeping!
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