RW Forum Six - Sub 3:30

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  • Aah, sleeping. I don't have any problem with that. Staying awake is my problem!
  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭
    Day Nurse for that!
  • Do you have a cure for everything Dr Minni?
  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭

    Night and day nurse, ibuprofen, caffeine - a cure for everything!

    How did the 8 mile club run go DD? 

  • Yeah, i was surprised to see the r.w schedule suggesting 8:45 m/m for a recovery run, i usually leave my watch at home + do a leisurely 4 mile route.
  • Morning All

    recovery runs should be slooooow, a wise old man once told me you should feel better at the end of a recovery run than you did at the start, they also shouldn't be too long. I have one to do today.

  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭

    My schedule said 9 miles today with 4 at lactate threshold pace (7.47).  I've been working at home today so had the luxury of waiting till the rain stopped before heading out.  During the first mile my legs felt heavy and I started to think maybe I'd peaked last week!  However, once I got into the stride they improved. Av pace 8.01; splits 8.35, 8.09, 7.42, 7.45, 7.41, 7.40, 7.47, 8.30, 8.34.  So that ended with 5 miles at avg 7.43.  Another box ticked. 

    Its all going well so far but I'm not looking forward to the speed sessions starting; this is when I really start to struggle. Although I am running more faster miles than usual so maybe that will help when the time comes...? 

    The weather is going to get milder and not before time!  

  • Well done Minni, nice run. Increase in pace is a gradual thing built slowly through tempo, fartlek and Intervals, it will come if you stick at it, most people seem to improve quite dramatically over the first six weeks. It applies across all abilities every september I see a new bunch stood on the track and by the time Dubai 1/2 M comes around in December they are all faster where ever they started from.

    Speed work only hurts at the time and you feel so good when its done, pain is temporary, pride is permanent.

  • Minni - I love the pictures. The scenery looks similiar to round here.

    Good session today too. That looks like speed work to me! Did you find somewhere flattish to run?

    I had to do a fair bit of runningup and down the same bit of road for my MP session today and even then there was a 2 mile hill in the middle. 14 miles including 10 @ MP (avg 8:01). All done before breakfast.

  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭

    Speed work only hurts at the time and you feel so good when its done, pain is temporary, pride is permanent.

    I'll read that before each session!

    CG I've often thought, when you describe your runs, that your countryside sounds very like mine - full of damned hills.  Nice session from you there and all before breakfast?! And a two mile hill?! Do you eat anything before you run so early?

    I have found a circular route of just under 2.5 miles,  which I did three times today.  It includes running over a bit of a field, a cattle grid and a gate but its relatively flat. I'll use it when doing these sessions on my own.   There was a couple walking the same route and I passed them three times!  It was getting embarrassing by the third! 

    I downloaded a podcast of Marathon Talk to listen to.  It was really good and helped me keep relaxed.  Anyone else listened to them?  

  • Minni ...my iPhone doesnt do well with podcasts as it contunually buffers and doesnt play anything but I have heard very good reports!


    I popped in to say that your runs at the moment show a nice consistent pace where needed and that must count for an awful lot at whatever end of the spectrum you are !!
  • Evening all....wow, alot going on!

    CG - 14m & 10 @ 8m/m - great running, must give you confidence at this stage

    DD - whilst I agree that pain is temporary.......by god it does hurt!  That's the annoying thing about pain.

    M - Good running as well....5m at 7.43 sounds great as well.  I also liked your cool down miles of 8.30m/m - they still feel quite quick to me.  Did  you listen to 'marathon talk' as you ran?  I'm not sure I could run quickly listening to a podcast - it makes me slow down to ridiculous speeds (i.e. 11m/m or slower - hardly running at all)

     OK, now for my news.......I spent much of the day in a cafe getting stuck into P&D, and lots of coffee.  Like the messages alot, it doesn't say anything without backing it up with plenty of science and is quite logical in it's approach.  But I do have a couple of questions, if you'll bear with me......

    In todays session, it suggests 9m lactate threshold (with 5m of this at 15k to HM pace).  Firstly, the 4m warm up and cool down - what sort of pace are you looking for, if the 5m is going to be about 7.50m/m?  I had a go at it tonight, and did 3m warm up at 9.40m/m, and then 4m LT at 7.53 m/m, with a very slow last mile at something like 10m/m.  ( I only planned to do 4 rather than the 5m suggested - wimp!)

    If you look at week 11, there is an identical session, except that it is a 10m LT, with 5m at HM pace.  What is to gain by adding a mile to the warm up/cool down?

    Most of the recovery runs are relatively short 5m or 6m....whilst I have no problems with this (definately not!) I'm used to 8/10/12m recoveries.  I suspect I was doing what P&D refer to as the general aerobic runs.....which confuses me as it feels that P&D and RW schedules are so different.  I know running is not an exact science but I'm surprised there is as much difference between the two.

    So I think I'm going to switch across to P&D properly and see where I go for the next few weeks.

    More exciting news....new shoes - Mizuno Wave Inspire 7's, my 4th pair.......is there anything as nice as the first run in bouncy shoes?

  • Marathon Talk is great - I've been catching up over the past couple of months and am now on episode 52. Some good interviews, some not so good interviews, some great advice and nuggets of information. It does seem a bit bizarre to listen to a podcast about running whilst running but it beats listening to music.
    Minni - great session with that constant pace in the middle section. Just keep banking the miles, hitting the paces and build your fitness bit by bit, brick by brick. A successful campaign is the accumulation of lots of sessions all blended together and it seems you're well on the way.
    Really impressed with your thread hosting as well - keep it up!
  • I listen to marathon talk. It's great. There are others but none are as good.

    Speedwork gets easier as you progress, but you need to do high mileage slow running to get the best out of your speedwork IMHO.
  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭

    M...eldy - Thanks for dropping in! I had some trouble with my iphone when I first got it and I needed to update my sim card.  I'd had the same one for years.  Might be worth looking in to? 

     Lake - like the cafe/coffee/P&D combo! The session you did today was the same as mine.  I did a 2m warm up, 5m LT, 2 mile cool down.  I think its ok to do the warm up and especially your cool down mile markedly slower.  Mine were faster but that was more a case of just what I felt like running.  I wouldn't have minded if there were slower. 

    lake wrote (see)

    If you look at week 11, there is an identical session, except that it is a 10m LT, with 5m at HM pace.  What is to gain by adding a mile to the warm up/cool down?

    Again, I will run this as 2.5m warm up, 5m LT, 2.5m cool down.  Although some might say that its best to run the faster 5 at the end...?  Do you mean put an extra mile on to the front and end of this session?

    I am making sure I do my recovery runs slowly so I know I can then do my harder session the following day.  I used to do the same as you (like 2 months ago!) but I think that's why I'm stuck in one pace.   So far its working for me and I'm pleased with the pace I'm managing to maintain on these LT sessions.

    I wore my new skins today image.  Late Christmas present!

    Matchstick Man I remember - consistency, consistency, consistence!  I read the sub 3.15 thread religiously but you're all so much faster than me, I don't really feel I have anything to offer.  But, let me get under the 3.30 in April then I'll be back to hound you!  

    So speedwork gets easier does it Mr Spoons?  I'll take your word for that! 

  • Morning All, Lots going on whilst I was in the land of nod.

    CG: Thats a nice run, 10 mile at MP at this stage of the schedule is a real confidence booster.

    Lake: the P & D schedule has six  of those LT runs starting with two at 8 miles, then 9, 2 at 10 miles and 1 at 11 miles, gradually the LT section increases to 7 miles in the 11 mile run in February, its progression. The increase in distance comes as the weekly mileages increase towards the 55MPW.

    Recovery runs most certainly should not be as  long as 8/10/12 those are indeed general aerobic runs or junk miles. Everything I have read states that micro muscle tears start to occur in any run over 8 miles, therefore if you go beyond or close to this limit on a recovery run it ceases to be a recovery run and leads to further muscle damage.

    IMHO opinion RW schedules are aimed more at the casual runner  whilst P & D is aimed at exactly the audience the title says Advanced marathoning.  If nothing else the P & D schedules are much more specific and far less vague than the RW ones which tend to avoid terms such as LT, Fartlek, Intervals, VO2 max, etc.  This of course is one of the reasons why I don't actually read RW anymore there are only ny times you can read the same thing over and over, to be fair there are only so many ways you can write about it as well and the magazines target audience is beginners not grizzled club veterans like me!

    MM: You have got it sussed, it eventually all blends together

    Minni:  does speedwork get easier? Not if you always strive to get to the next level, but what does happen is mental acceptance that its necessary to enable you to reach the next level .

    Run Well folks

  • Wow - loads to catch up on. I'm in awe of all your running.

    My news - still no running, chest is bad but I feel there is a slight improvement today, so to stop me banging my head against the wall any longer I am going to try and attempt a short slow run this morning. We have mild temperatures here for next few days - 8-9 degress so hopefully that will help too.

  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭

    Hope it goes well AA.  Sometimes, I find, you don't feel any worse for having a run and it may even make you feel better.  So long as you don't push it.

    DD I know what you mean about RW but, like you say,  there are only so many ways to write the same thing, and only so many times you want to read about it.

    Dubai Dave wrote (see)
    Recovery runs most certainly should not be as  long as 8/10/12 those are indeed general aerobic runs or junk miles. Everything I have read states that micro muscle tears start to occur in any run over 8 miles, therefore if you go beyond or close to this limit on a recovery run it ceases to be a recovery run and leads to further muscle damage.
    This all makes sense but how does that theory work in a months time when we've got sessions such as, general aerobic followed by VO2 max session the next day, and general aerobic followed by long run the next day, later in the same week (week 8).  Although I note the total mileage that will is slightly lower.

    Mental Acceptance  will store this with Pride is Permanent!

  • Well you can't run  long run, a medium long run, a speed session, a general aerobic session in one week and have recovery run between each harder session there simply aren't enough days, P & D schedule at least one recovery run and one rest day in each week thats about as much time as you have for recovery when its necessary to hit the key sessions.

  • 5 miles run at 8:47 pace - no coughing fits - so hopefully can start back training again next week image
  • DD - thanks for your answers, that makes good sense.  In the balance between casual & 'advanced' running, I guess I am somewhere in the middle, but it's nice to imagine I can follow a more stretching schedule.

    Minni - I also wondered why the rest & recovery days changed so much in the next few weeks...I'm used to doing the same type runs on the same days.  I suspect I'll be changing the days around anyway to fit in with work.

    Had to do my general aerobic 10m this morning, as I'll not be able to do it on Thu or Friday...so managed to knock it out this morning (yet more wind & rain) at 9.17m/m.  Felt fine.

    AA - do take it easy, there's nothing worse than pushing too hard after a break and making yourself worse. 

  • Good news AA, but take it easy
  • Minni wrote (see)

    Matchstick Man I remember - consistency, consistency, consistence!  I read the sub 3.15 thread religiously but you're all so much faster than me, I don't really feel I have anything to offer.  But, let me get under the 3.30 in April then I'll be back to hound you!  

    You may not think you have anything to offer but you're not that far away from us in terms of paces and race results in the same way that we're not a million miles away from some of those in the sub 3 thread and in the same way that the people aiming at sub 3h45 aren't that far away from you. It's all relative and there's a lot to be learned and stored away by reading about slightly faster runners than yourself.
  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭

    MM image

    AA I thought you were going to take it easy!  Sounds like you're over the worst.

    I've been doing my general aerobic on a Friday but can't manage it this week so will try to fit it in on Thursday evening.  Heading for a 5 mile recovery tonight.

  • bit of reading to catch up on after a couple of days! 

    AA - good to hear you're back into it, do take it easy.

    DD - interesting insight into the differences between the r.w and P&D, I am so glad to have found this forum and the P&D book!

     Time to head out for a recovery run  image

  • Morning All.

    If I have got the right page of P & D its an aerobic 10 today. Cycling for me.

    AA: ease back into it

  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭
    Yep 10m GA today. I'll have to run tonight and not sure if I'll have time for the full 10. I'm on a very tight schedule for the next couple of days.

    I did 5m recovery last night and I've found that I'm really tired after them. I went to bed feeling as if I could sleep for a week!

    CG...Are you cutting back your mileage a bit next week ready for the half? I notice on the RW mileage thingy that your right up there with your mileage with well over a hundred miles for January do far.

    DD... What's the cycling session you have planned? I can't wait for the longer days to get back out on the wheels.
  • Excellent news AAimage

    Good luck with squeezing in your run Minni. Do you manage to s;leep ok after an evening run? It's one of the reasons I run in the mornings.

    I'm not sure what Moraghan has planned for next week yet but I know he isn't a fan of tapering for secondary races. I do get to run 18 instead of 20 tomorrow though.

  • 18 instead of 20 sounds like an easy taper image

    What do they mean by an aerobic run? Is it just an easy run?

    And where is this "RW mileage thingy"?
  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭

    Mr Spoons - here is the RW thingy.   Click on the link on this thread, sign up and enter your mileage.  Its quite interesting, east vs west.

    My aerobic runs are about 8.40 - 9.00 m/m.  

    Sleeping - I find it harder to sleep after a harder session than an easier one, and  I sleep really badly after a race. 

    CG - glad you here you're getting an easier run tomorrow! image

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